t2thej
staff puppet account
Posts: 44 
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Post by t2thej on Mar 22, 2016 6:05:34 GMT -5
I maintain that you simply don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Your argument suggests that you straight up do not understand how these skills work. Like you don't seem able to comprehend that master sneak/hide pretty much cannot fail and, with a few +stealth items, becomes literally undetectable. Or that maxed backstab more or less cannot miss and, with even what few buffs we can safely surmise will be included in something like the Rukkian Empowerment subguild, will largely guarantee that every backstab is a one-hit kill. These combinations of previously mundane-only skills and previously mage-only spells are going to create characters that can do stupendously gamebreaking things. Even something as simple as knowing what max stealth can do, and knowing what damage a certain spell can do, proves that this will be the case. You're the one whose arguments are completely bereft of any kind of analysis or any actual examples that point to the mechanical realities of the game, and simply assume that everything is fine because of some supposition with no basis. You guarantee it? Okay, talk out your ass some more. So one rukkian spell makes you god with one hit kills. Staff never thought of that. They have no idea? They're going to just let that happen? Okay, sure.I didn't know you were on staff. The /only/ thing in your example that is any different from a MUNDANE being able to do one thing, is one spell, that you actually still do not know the power it has, or how much it'll affect. In all actuality, the only person this affects is a ranger or burglar or another assassin with scan. No one else is even going to see an ESG with a 70 cap and bonuses, because they don't get that high (which was part of my point about ESG's not being -that- different). So your backstab might land a dozen percent points less often.. you could still be a full stacked ruk going against a huge number of players that could never detect you as a slipknife, which also get master level stealth. So again.. a much, much smaller window of actual, factual change. Again, you still miss big picture stuff, but i'm really tired of explaining to you just how wrong you are over and over again. I'm not going to keep defending specific examples, as i've stated, some situations it could be better. It's not 'game-breakingly' better. You're just wrong. Get used to it, or not. I'm not wasting more energy responding. Oh, strawman argument, clever. What we're actually talking about is that the minor influence, which i've already stated will likely be better, will not be game breaking. But thanks for shutting the fuck up with your drivel. |
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 22, 2016 6:13:13 GMT -5
If I had to guess Id say players seldom roll up sorcerers anymore. There may be a period where everyone wants to test out these new subguilds but then reality hits them and they move on and their population begins to match the sorcerer minority. It's just going to be people running around the scrubs mostly and not affecting anything big. Though that isn't to say there aren't some pretty scary, arguably imbalanced combinations now....I just don't think they'll have a chance to sink their teeth into anything worthwhile. There's a really big difference between sorcerers and regular magickers. Mainly, it requires 8 karma so very few players are eligible, and sorcerers are universally kill on sight with really no realistic chance to participate in ordinary society. The moment any mindbender checks their background, their character is finished. This was originally countered by the fact that sorcerers got nearly every spell and were so immensely powerful and nigh-unassailable that they could form entire pseudo-clans outside the cities and could actually survive being active sorcerers. This was the thing that made them viable. This all got completely fucked when they changed the sorcerer guild into a handful of subguilds with bastardized spell selections, because they no longer have the tools that allow them to survive being sorcerers. They can no longer be super-villains who get to be sorcerers because they're too powerful to stop. They simply cannot have the tools that enabled this. As such, sorcerers became effectively unplayable and now might as well not exist because you just straight up can't get away with it anymore. The fact that staff failed to predict or understand this suggests that they could full well be similarly unable to comprehend the consequences of the changes they've just made to mages. They don't have a great track record in that regard. They seemed to have no notion of what it was that made sorcerers playable, so I fully expect them to have no notion of what can be done when pairing existing mundane guilds with spells that were designed for a time when mages had no combat skills, no stealth, and generally no skills beyond middling subguild levels. Mages are completely different from sorcerers. For one thing, you can simply be gemmed. Even if you aren't, there are both places where you can safely be an ungemmed mage, such as most tribes, and places where you can pretty easily get away with just being a rogue mage, such as... really anywhere besides Allanak, and even there it's not quite impossible. Doubly so when you're basically impossible to guildsniff as you pass perfectly for any mundane character, eliminating that whole OOC discovery risk. I find it much more likely that because mages can now be so much more versatile and fit so much more easily into most aspects of the game, more people will play them. It used to be a very different kind of role, limiting you to a life of casting spells. A lot of players didn't like that, and a lot of players enjoy combat or stealth or crafting so much that they chose to play mostly mundanes for that reason. With the ability to have those things in full and also be a mage, some of those players will choose that for certain. |
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 22, 2016 6:15:54 GMT -5
I don't know if you're actually aware of it, but all of your arguments hinge on the assumption that they're going to make changes that they've said nothing about, changes that make no sense and are generally at odds with fundamental game mechanics as well as their statements in discussions about the new magic guilds. If that doesn't happen, all your arguments fall apart completely. I'm gonna stop responding to you or reading your posts because it's completely futile. |
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t2thej
staff puppet account
Posts: 44
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Post by t2thej on Mar 22, 2016 6:23:37 GMT -5
I don't know if you're actually aware of it, but all of your arguments hinge on the assumption that they're going to make changes that they've said nothing about, which make no sense, and which are generally at odds with fundamental game mechanics. If that doesn't happen, all your arguments fall apart completely. I'm gonna stop responding to you because it's completely futile. All of my arguments? All of them? Except the ones where they had nothing to do with that -1- part, where I said it's -possible-. Like the part where an assassin with 1 ruk spell isn't any different than a ruk with slipknife, until you get to the very very end of cheesing them up, and even then, all things considered, except in a handful of cases where having over 70 stealth/backstab and a handful of percentage points on backstab even matters, it's NOT -GAMEBREAKINGLY-. And the same goes for a lot of full gicker + combat ESG combos vs combat mundane and gicker ESG. Even if they have the same 'spellpower' Or that the second you're outted as a gicker you lose a ton of IG support options, and have to deal with it, making it far less ideal. Or that 'all' these pc's coming out of the woodwork with tons of karma that are PK happy won't be dealing with -all- the other pc's playing the exact same types of combos, being PK happy. Or that the way you were killed won't really matter in a PK happy place - everyone will always try to go with the best option to accomplish their goals. Won't it be hilarious when that Assassin/Ruk blows his load on an invulnerable viv hybrid and then get bashed and beaten to death? This isn't ever a one shot, all powerful, can't be stopped situation. There are a ton of variables. Just the way I see it. So, yeah, my argument will fall apart, for whatever that's worth to you on that one point where I didn't even contest it was possible that it wouldn't change and we dint even know for /sure/, but man, if it doesn't, won't you look silly if it does, claiming so adamantly that there's no way, no chance, huh? At the end of the day, it's just a game, sorry for getting all charged up. I'm going to take a break and let it simmer for a while. |
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 386
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Post by jesantu on Mar 22, 2016 7:24:05 GMT -5
I'll agree with your assessment of sorcs vs elementalists, newtwink. I hadn't considered those differences.
I say this mostly tongue in cheek but maybe that was their intention all along. Complete nerfdom that results in the same watered down everything you tend to see in present day Arm.
Actually it might not be as conspiracy theory sounding as it sounds. The strongest motivational factor for the small minded majority of imms is control. They probably hated the notion of defilers starting their own groups. And rather than giving them an opportunity to weave their secret society into the game it was just easier to shut it down.
Just like it was easier to shut down....
Halflings
Outriders
Tan muark
Pc red robes
Pc senior nobles
Shadow artists
Qynar
freely run player tribes (why exactly does this need imm approval again?)
Tuluk and a whole lot more
But at least there will always be spiders and ankhegs right?
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 22, 2016 7:43:57 GMT -5
I mean, I wouldn't put it past them, but if I ever acknowledge that staff is intentionally making the game worse in order to expressly prevent it from being fun, I'd give up on Armageddon for good. Since it's the only RPI left that's even really in functional condition, I'm not ready for that yet.
Honestly though, while I actually believe you're correct about their motivations behind some of those things, I genuinely think that they simply don't know the game well enough to have realized what they've created in this case. A lot of people who end up joining MUD staff are players who didn't accomplish a whole lot as mortal players, and didn't get to have really powerful characters with which to fully explore the game and code. So, I fully believe that they're the kinds of people who don't have the kind of experience to visualize gamebreaking shit.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 386
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Post by jesantu on Mar 22, 2016 8:21:14 GMT -5
I genuinely think that they simply don't know the game well enough to have realized what they've created in this case. I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's the same phenomenon as rgs saying the game is in the best state ever when he never experienced a time period when Arm (for all its glaring flaws at the time) was a literal saga brimming with life and storytelling. Currents imms are mere inheritors of the game, a game they do not fully comprehend yet. So I'll side with your analysis that they're likely just being incompetent (and in defense of the few good apples out there, simply as of yet inexperienced). But there is hope and it's looking healthier than it was immediately after nyrs hiatus, where numbers were rising but no changes had yet been initiated. I'm not above praising changes or surrendering my impassioned language when the game reaches full potential again. They've come a long way but they also have a good deal maturing to do. And I think this current subguild change could have been a) met with player consultation first and b) been a much smaller change initially. What's happened instead is to completely pull the rug out from one of the very foundations of the game itself. That's pretty risky business for a MUD struggling to heal from a nyr dismantling. |
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 22, 2016 8:25:03 GMT -5
They've done a lot recently, but only with the code. The code wasn't the problem. It was old but entirely functional. The place where they've failed - and which is tragically also the place where their success is much more important - is in supporting player endeavors and establishing a lively roleplaying environment. I feel like they've just about given up on this and are trying to compensate by rapidly overhauling code, so fast that they don't even stop to consider if it's a good idea (or ask players if they're remotely interested in these changes).
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 386
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Post by jesantu on Mar 22, 2016 8:36:54 GMT -5
I think they simply don't know how to do it. A search for book titles on amazon about emotional intelligence would be a good start.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 386
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Post by jesantu on Mar 22, 2016 8:41:14 GMT -5
You have to be the kind of person who enjoys making fun for others to be a successful imm. At least one who tells stories and facilitates player ambition. If empathy isn't one of your strong suits, you couldn't possibly have selected a worse position. That's why I slam on nyrsalinemoosealia so much. These guys are like the antithesis of the word empathy. Look up the antonym of the word in a thesaurus and you'll be sure to see ol' neckbeard's face staring back at you.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 9:36:27 GMT -5
All due respect, I don't think you have the experience with code-heavy play to really consider the implications. Have you ever played a maxed assassin? Have you felt through experience how COMPLETELY gamebreaking that would be with the addition of, say, strength and fury? And because these are subguilds, you can go through life as an assassin and just use those spells when you're actually going to assassinate somebody, making it... frankly almost completely safe. Maybe in Allanak somebody might spot you with identify, but that's about it. Get gemmed if that's a concern. Anywhere else, you can effortlessly go through life posing as a mundane. People did it all throughout the game's history even when it was infinitely easier to guildsniff a mage. Prior to this change, the balancing factor was that while magic was powerful and mages could smoke most people, they could only really do it in a way that was pretty unique to mages and therefore unsafe. An assassin who can ride off into the desert and cast his full suite of Rukkian Empowerment buffs, or whatever, and then only be at risk to somebody spotting him with detect magic on the way to or from the assassination (realistically this simply won't happen), that's going to be such a staggering increase in the power level of an assassin character that it blows my mind. It's so much more dangerous than a pre-change mage because he had to go around being a mage, and had only magic at his disposal, extended subguilds aside. This isn't just assassins, I simply started in alphabetical order. The implications of invisible muls, invul/sanc rangers, max-stealth fireballers and so on, it's patently ridiculous. Prior to this, whirans could turn invisible and fly but were not excessively deadly. Krathi were very deadly but also quite vulnerable and easy to avoid. Vivaduans were nearly unkillable but could not destroy you with ease. This has all been turned on its head. In many ways, magickers have now become infinitely more powerful because they have the full potential of any mundane plus whatever spells from any element that best complements a certain pursuit. This can be surmised even without access to the new spell lists. You can safely assume that Rukkian Empowerment contains both strength and fury (and maybe godspeed, holy fucking shit), Rukkian Protection has both armor and stoneskin, and one of the Krathi ones surely has empower. This alone is so insane on any warrior, assassin or ranger. This is without considering any of the other spells that these get, as surely each magic subguild gets more than one or two spells. It's probably even more extreme than I'm describing. A burglar with demonfire can kill anybody almost anywhere with such laughable ease, and get away again in 100% infallible safety due to maxed stealth, that it isn't even funny. Well, actually, it's hilarious. Just that one spell would create an unstoppable PK monster when paired with 90 pick and stealth. A ranger with invisibility can shoot anybody to death from his mount, and obtain an unlimited supply of peraine with little to no risk or effort. If the Rukkian Protection suite also contains burrow in addition to armor and stoneskin, such a warrior pretty much cannot die. This is not just a case of pickpockets killing tarantulas or crafters making wine. This is completely unprecedented power, because mundane skills were never designed to mix with magic in this manner, on individual characters without drawbacks. I'm pretty sure not even staff has considered this. They can't possibly have. It's UTTERLY gamebreaking. They have considered it. It's so obvious. Most of them have played the game for a long time, and know exactly what is possible. I don't deny that it is going to be a real shit-show, though. Almost every single extended 'mundane' subguild is now worse than almost every single extended magick subguild, true, but I am betting that the spells are either going to be way underpowered and either cost more mana or make them deal with a smaller pool and/or shorter duration, possibly all of the above. Ah, no. A couple of the imms have clearly only played social characters. A couple of us could give you as many examples as you might want to hear about small rpts where an imm have screwed up the monster gens so badly that a party wiped occurred in laughable fashion. I can think of five of these without making an effort. If these imms, who got their plot ideas approved, dont know how to scale combats, it stands to reason they dont know what combinations of the most powerful items in the game synergize, and not just add together. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 11:01:40 GMT -5
I think this can open up alot of new options, but wouldn't be game-breaking. Mundanes by themselves can still be quite powerful, some able to knock off mages pretty easily - or some who've been preparing their whole life to hunt them. While any character can be strong, there is always going to be some way to kill them. I completely agree with newtwink in that the staff probably have no idea how this is going to impact the game, but to be honest, neither am I.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 22, 2016 13:07:06 GMT -5
I wish they'd kept full elementalists, as well as the full list of elements. I can't help but see this as a glaring error and I know a lot of people will be strongly displeased. I'd say it could have positive long term impact, but I think the implementation was all wrong and that it's hard to forsee a good conclusion if it drives off a large enough chunk of the playerbase, many of whom have been playing for years in order to amass enough karma in the hopes of playing a nilazi or something. Not to mention, this practically vaporizes much of the game lore and history. I wish they'd do something less destructive and fix c-elves, but I shouldn't say that because if their methods are consistent they'd just remove all city elves ever.
Plus i don't really see the appeal of having a nerfed, limited spell list for the elements, I think I'd find many of the mundane extended subguilds more appealing. I agree with Jesantu.
Did they even consult the playerbase or give any warning? That's largely disrespectful to the people playing their game. Someone should tell them that an april fools joke nine days early is not funny.
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Post by sergeantraul on Mar 22, 2016 13:10:14 GMT -5
LOL @ Lizzie whining that this ruins her mage characters because she literally cannot fathom playing a mage character who is not defined by their guild.
Yeah, I went from doubting this change to completely supporting it.
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
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Post by punished ppurg on Mar 22, 2016 13:17:07 GMT -5
LOL @ Lizzie whining that this ruins her mage characters because she literally cannot fathom playing a mage character who is not defined by their guild. Yeah, I went from doubting this change to completely supporting it. If this change can get Lizzie to call it quits, then I might just support it after all. |
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