OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257 
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Post by OT on Mar 21, 2016 22:31:53 GMT -5
I would have been fairly indifferent to this if choosing a magick subguild gave you a less powerful version of the mundane main guild, like the ones you can pick for a psionicist. Making them full-blown main guilds with a handful of spells on top, that just makes them SO MUCH STRONGER than any mundane character that it's not even funny.
I mean, we don't even need to know the spell lists to surmise this. It's pretty much self-evident that, for instance, the Rukkian protection one at least gets armor and stoneskin. Rukkian empowerment probably gets strength and fury, possibly even godspeed. Can you imagine the absurdity that this will create? These characters will be COMPLETELY FUCKING UNSTOPPABLE and have no direct disadvantages.
If you live in Allanak, you just take the gem. If you live anywhere else, it's fairly trivial to remain a secret mage, especially if you can be a full-blown ranger or whatever on top. Magick subguilds were vaguely okay for sorcerors because 1) it requires 8 karma and 2) you have to be a sorcerer, i.e. kill on sight everywhere in the world and you don't regenerate mana normally. These elementalist subguilds look like they're going to DESTROY the metabalance.
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Post by jonsmith on Mar 22, 2016 0:05:41 GMT -5
I honestly don't give a shit, and I'm currently playing a void elementalist, I'm debating storing him simply to play a warrior krathi.
People are getting entirely too butthurt.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 386
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Post by jesantu on Mar 22, 2016 0:45:34 GMT -5
So do the subguild versions have only a few basic spells and that's it, or can they branch some stuff and eventually be just like any other elementalist was with the added bonus of a main guild?
The original subguilds were basically the addition of about 3 skills to your skill tree, which usually cannot even come close to maxing at master level. Is this at all what the elementalist subguilds have been reduced to?
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Mar 22, 2016 1:38:58 GMT -5
They completely missed yet another fucking opportunity to make cool and interesting shit happen IG.
The fact this was posted means they even considered it.
I am done.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Mar 22, 2016 1:40:34 GMT -5
I honestly don't give a shit, and I'm currently playing a void elementalist, I'm debating storing him simply to play a warrior krathi. People are getting entirely too butthurt. I'd hold off on that, were I you. You're about to have something insanely rare and powerful in your hands. |
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bobo
Clueless newb
Posts: 58
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Post by bobo on Mar 22, 2016 2:07:28 GMT -5
Axing Elkros/Drov/Nilazi is downright stupid. A huge amount of the unique flavor of Arma magick gone in one fell swoop. Now we get... Earth Air Fire Water. Same boring-ass elements we see in everything from every boring-ass RPG to freaking Avatar the Last Airbender.
The subguild thing is something that has been suggested by many people over the years, including myself. It's fine and will add a lot of possibilities (although it does have some serious balance implications), but getting rid of the only magick guilds with any vaguely unique flavor? Stupid. Very very stupid.
Lately I've been watching Nessalin's code updates and felt like I should say "Hey Shadowboards, see, new code is made, and apparently Nessalin does stuff!" But if this is what happens when someone actually starts coding -- more cool shit gets removed -- then I was terribly mistaken.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 2:07:35 GMT -5
I'm kind of laughing my ass off at everyone's assumptions that this is going to make everyone holy-shit-over-the-top-overpowered.
You mean you're a crafter who can also make wine/water/fruit? Holy shit. Such deads.
You pick pockets and make nasty tarantula meat? Bitchin'.
So you're a burglar who can be undetected (like literally every other twink burglar ever), hawt.
Nah, the 'holy shit overpowered' thing is like the opposite of my reaction.
My reaction is instead one of dismay. You can no longer play a magick-centric character on this game any more effectively than you used to be able to effectively fake being a merchant on a mage pc. Bitchin'. Oh, AND losing the 3 unique flavors of elementalist that made arm unique? Be still my beating fucking heart.
And I know that there's this thing going around about Cutthroat = Nergal and that Nyr = Nergal is supposed to be tongue in cheek, but... nah, Cutthroat I was the staff for for like a year. He's actually a pretty decent dude. Dollars to fucking donuts that Nyr is Nergal. If the elementalist threads don't show the same asshattery, someone spit in my fucking eye because I'm clearly blind.
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 22, 2016 3:17:01 GMT -5
I'm kind of laughing my ass off at everyone's assumptions that this is going to make everyone holy-shit-over-the-top-overpowered. You mean you're a crafter who can also make wine/water/fruit? Holy shit. Such deads. You pick pockets and make nasty tarantula meat? Bitchin'. So you're a burglar who can be undetected (like literally every other twink burglar ever), hawt. Nah, the 'holy shit overpowered' thing is like the opposite of my reaction. All due respect, I don't think you have the experience with code-heavy play to really consider the implications. Have you ever played a maxed assassin? Have you felt through experience how COMPLETELY gamebreaking that would be with the addition of, say, strength and fury? And because these are subguilds, you can go through life as an assassin and just use those spells when you're actually going to assassinate somebody, making it... frankly almost completely safe. Maybe in Allanak somebody might spot you with identify, but that's about it. Get gemmed if that's a concern. Anywhere else, you can effortlessly go through life posing as a mundane. People did it all throughout the game's history even when it was infinitely easier to guildsniff a mage. Prior to this change, the balancing factor was that while magic was powerful and mages could smoke most people, they could only really do it in a way that was pretty unique to mages and therefore unsafe. An assassin who can ride off into the desert and cast his full suite of Rukkian Empowerment buffs, or whatever, and then only be at risk to somebody spotting him with detect magic on the way to or from the assassination (realistically this simply won't happen), that's going to be such a staggering increase in the power level of an assassin character that it blows my mind. It's so much more dangerous than a pre-change mage because he had to go around being a mage, and had only magic at his disposal, extended subguilds aside. This isn't just assassins, I simply started in alphabetical order. The implications of invisible muls, invul/sanc rangers, max-stealth fireballers and so on, it's patently ridiculous. Prior to this, whirans could turn invisible and fly but were not excessively deadly. Krathi were very deadly but also quite vulnerable and easy to avoid. Vivaduans were nearly unkillable but could not destroy you with ease. This has all been turned on its head. In many ways, magickers have now become infinitely more powerful because they have the full potential of any mundane plus whatever spells from any element that best complement a certain pursuit. This can be surmised even without access to the new spell lists. You can safely assume that Rukkian Empowerment contains both strength and fury (and maybe godspeed, holy fucking shit), Rukkian Protection has both armor and stoneskin, and one of the Krathi ones surely has empower. This alone is so insane on any warrior, assassin or ranger. This is without considering any of the other spells that these get, as surely each magic subguild gets more than one or two spells. It's probably even more extreme than I'm describing. A burglar with demonfire can kill anybody almost anywhere with such laughable ease, and get away again in 100% infallible safety due to maxed stealth, that it isn't even funny. Well, actually, it's hilarious. Just that one spell would create an unstoppable PK monster when paired with 90 pick and stealth. A ranger with invisibility can shoot anybody to death from his mount, and obtain an unlimited supply of peraine with little to no risk or effort. If the Rukkian Protection suite also contains burrow in addition to armor and stoneskin, such a warrior pretty much cannot die. This is not just a case of pickpockets killing tarantulas or crafters making wine. This is completely unprecedented power, because mundane skills were never designed to mix with magic in this manner, on individual characters without drawbacks. I'm pretty sure not even staff has considered this. They can't possibly have. It's UTTERLY gamebreaking. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 3:53:54 GMT -5
Unless they changed it, Archery breaks invisibility. I tested this out in game with a RF when sworn to them as a whiran.
In fact, the ONLY guilds I have a lot of experience with code heavy play on, are magick guilds.
Further, you can go on about how game breaking it is because they're too powerful now if you want, I honestly don't care. I don't care who's powerful and who's not. My reaction is that more than half of the guilds literally just went up in smoke without a hint or whisper beforehand, and the main person responding to it (in delightfully Nyrish fashion) is being a completely dismissive asshole about it.
b-t-dubs: A prepared burglar with the right friends could've killed anyone with laughable ease before, too. Same with any guild. The fact that you no longer have to have friends to do it only makes the game less favorably slanted toward peak timers.
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 22, 2016 4:04:42 GMT -5
Unless they changed it, Archery breaks invisibility. I tested this out in game with a RF when sworn to them as a whiran. Yeah but you can get the drop on them without warning, from whatever direction suits you, with the peraine arrows that you effortlessly farmed with the help of invisibility. You don't need to remain invisible after the first shot. Your mount will also remain invisible so they can't use the main ranger counter of attacking the mount. The ability to turn that burglar+krathi two-man PK team (which is so rare that I've never heard of such a thing) into a single character is what makes this gamebreaking. It didn't happen in the past because a burglar and krathi working together was just so improbable, and because the krathi wouldn't have 90 hide and 95 sneak to make it 100% safe for him. You're still not considering the implications because, as you say, you haven't played these maxed out mundane guilds to get a sense of how mindblowingly absurd they would be with even just a couple of the spells that complement what they can do. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 4:06:53 GMT -5
*head shake*
I'm not, you're right. Because that burglar could've gotten the poisons to just assassinate you quietly. They could've gotten the rangz from a krathi to boost (XYZ), they could've done a number of things to kill you pretty fucking seamlessly already, some of which included help from friends with, you guessed it, magick.
The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm not considering the implications remotely. In fact, it means that I consider death to poison equal to death from a fireball equal to a well placed backstab equal to a half-giant beheading you. There are and were plenty of ways to kill a motherfucker. That didn't change. If you want to harp on the fact that people can cast a spell to do it instead of rubbing some berries on a blade, go for it, but the objective reality that one way of getting you dead is equal to another and before and after the change both, all guilds could have managed it with the right preparations, does not become any less true.
FWIW: I ran with Howls in the Red Fangs as one of their closer sworn mages for months, I was part of the reason the Red Fangs were too powerful to live. I also spent a year on staff watching every clanned northern PC there was. If you think that I don't know what a mainguild mundane is capable of simply because I have not personally played one, you are incorrect.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 4:09:17 GMT -5
Unless they changed it, Archery breaks invisibility. I tested this out in game with a RF when sworn to them as a whiran. Yeah but you can get the drop on them without warning, from whatever direction suits you, with the peraine arrows that you effortlessly farmed with the help of invisibility. You don't need to remain invisible after the first shot. Your mount will also remain invisible so they can't use the main ranger counter of attacking the mount. If you can find an erdlu to hold you or a small enough animal to successfully invis, maybe. What you can make invisible does depend on size and weight, and there are limits. |
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 22, 2016 4:09:58 GMT -5
*head shake* I'm not, you're right. Because that burglar could've gotten the poisons to just assassinate you quietly. They could've gotten the rangz from a krathi to boost (XYZ), they could've done a number of things to kill you pretty fucking seamlessly already, some of which included help from friends with, you guessed it, magick. They're just not even remotely comparable situations. For one thing, the traditional burglar can't do all that shit himself and would have to not only find others to help him but also open himself for potential betrayal and having his secret leaked. It's also just way less effective anyway. A plain burglar's ability to kill somebody, even with poisons, is very limited. Obtaining rangz is not something you just do, most people literally never see a single one even on their longest-lived characters, and it still wouldn't be as powerful even if you got a bunch (which essentially nobody did even when every krathi could make them). Nothing that was possible before compares to the ability to pick any pickable lock, go in with infallible stealth, and just cast demonfire on a guy so that he simply has no chance to even react. Or if not demonfire then sleep, anything; any of the many spells that you simply die from but were balanced around the fact that the caster had to get to you, and get the cast off without you leaving, stopping him, or simply not going to a place where that could realistically be done to you. It's not about these specific instances, though. It's about the fact that full mundane guilds with spells are so earthshatteringly powerful that it's going to be a CLUSTERFUCK when that's what every mage in the game is. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 22, 2016 4:13:03 GMT -5
Tell me again about how being reel-locked works?
But it's totally not comparable, right? Because you got all that extra time to react when reel-locked?
In fact, send me a log when something like this happens to you, EVER, and I will give you a public apology.
Because you will have proven me wrong.
Until then, you can argue your case until you're black and blue in the face, and it might change other people's opinions on it, but it's not going to alter or sway mine by the tiniest minute measurement.
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t2thej
staff puppet account
Posts: 44
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Post by t2thej on Mar 22, 2016 4:13:44 GMT -5
I'm kind of laughing my ass off at everyone's assumptions that this is going to make everyone holy-shit-over-the-top-overpowered. You mean you're a crafter who can also make wine/water/fruit? Holy shit. Such deads. You pick pockets and make nasty tarantula meat? Bitchin'. So you're a burglar who can be undetected (like literally every other twink burglar ever), hawt. Nah, the 'holy shit overpowered' thing is like the opposite of my reaction. All due respect, I don't think you have the experience with code-heavy play to really consider the implications. Have you ever played a maxed assassin? Have you felt through experience how COMPLETELY gamebreaking that would be with the addition of, say, strength and fury? And because these are subguilds, you can go through life as an assassin and just use those spells when you're actually going to assassinate somebody, making it... frankly almost completely safe. Maybe in Allanak somebody might spot you with identify, but that's about it. Get gemmed if that's a concern. Anywhere else, you can effortlessly go through life posing as a mundane. People did it all throughout the game's history even when it was infinitely easier to guildsniff a mage. Prior to this change, the balancing factor was that while magic was powerful and mages could smoke most people, they could only really do it in a way that was pretty unique to mages and therefore unsafe. An assassin who can ride off into the desert and cast his full suite of Rukkian Empowerment buffs, or whatever, and then only be at risk to somebody spotting him with detect magic on the way to or from the assassination (realistically this simply won't happen), that's going to be such a staggering increase in the power level of an assassin character that it blows my mind. It's so much more dangerous than a pre-change mage because he had to go around being a mage, and had only magic at his disposal, extended subguilds aside. This isn't just assassins, I simply started in alphabetical order. The implications of invisible muls, invul/sanc rangers, max-stealth fireballers and so on, it's patently ridiculous. Prior to this, whirans could turn invisible and fly but were not excessively deadly. Krathi were very deadly but also quite vulnerable and easy to avoid. Vivaduans were nearly unkillable but could not destroy you with ease. This has all been turned on its head. In many ways, magickers have now become infinitely more powerful because they have the full potential of any mundane plus whatever spells from any element that best complements a certain pursuit. This can be surmised even without access to the new spell lists. You can safely assume that Rukkian Empowerment contains both strength and fury (and maybe godspeed, holy fucking shit), Rukkian Protection has both armor and stoneskin, and one of the Krathi ones surely has empower. This alone is so insane on any warrior, assassin or ranger. This is without considering any of the other spells that these get, as surely each magic subguild gets more than one or two spells. It's probably even more extreme than I'm describing. A burglar with demonfire can kill anybody almost anywhere with such laughable ease, and get away again in 100% infallible safety due to maxed stealth, that it isn't even funny. Well, actually, it's hilarious. Just that one spell would create an unstoppable PK monster when paired with 90 pick and stealth. A ranger with invisibility can shoot anybody to death from his mount, and obtain an unlimited supply of peraine with little to no risk or effort. If the Rukkian Protection suite also contains burrow in addition to armor and stoneskin, such a warrior pretty much cannot die. This is not just a case of pickpockets killing tarantulas or crafters making wine. This is completely unprecedented power, because mundane skills were never designed to mix with magic in this manner, on individual characters without drawbacks. I'm pretty sure not even staff has considered this. They can't possibly have. It's UTTERLY gamebreaking. They have considered it. It's so obvious. Most of them have played the game for a long time, and know exactly what is possible. I don't deny that it is going to be a real shit-show, though. Almost every single extended 'mundane' subguild is now worse than almost every single extended magick subguild, true, but I am betting that the spells are either going to be way underpowered and either cost more mana or make them deal with a smaller pool and/or shorter duration, possibly all of the above. |
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