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Post by BitterFlashback on Feb 22, 2016 3:32:21 GMT -5
Well now that everyone's finished ragequitting over the world's least informative wiki being partially leaked, I'd like to raise a question for discussion. What is the point of the majority of the game's history being known solely by the staff? For almost two decades, players have been part of a one-upping contest from some upper-level staff trying to out write each other. They're get to see a tiny piece of the story they're sometimes being killed for emotional impact in, but for the most part they never find out the big picture they were a part of. Why? If the stories of this game are so compelling players are recruited to be sometimes killed in, why in the hell aren't these stories ever released? Players already have background on the game dating back before it actually started. These are things players' characters already shouldn't know but they are public to sell people on playing the game and get them into the mentality to play it. People want to contribute to a good story and make stories of their own. As it stands now, even if your character was integral to a plot happening (15 years ago when that was possible) you'd never know how what you did made a difference. Likewise, if you die for some staffer's plot, you never learn what it was your sacrifice was meaningless to the service of as the railroad plot got the train to the station. I've repeatedly complained about the trend of the staff treating players like a captive audience for their attempts to be writers for years. Since it seems like it might be on the way out, I think it's worth asking when the hell any of the old world-changing stuff is going to get published by the staff to the web, and if not then why not? I would like to think having a growing public hall of fame would be a big selling point for a game that is supposed to be RPI. |
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Post by pinkerdlu on Feb 22, 2016 3:34:23 GMT -5
ignore Canadian shills, ignore Canadian shitposting, ignore Canadian coders
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Post by tektolnes on Feb 22, 2016 17:18:15 GMT -5
Agreeing with Bitterflashback. I can understand the need to hold some things back, but I get the feeling that the staff withholds the majority of the game world. It seems to me like the PCs in the game can only ever climb 1/3 of the way up the ladder, in anything they do. For example, you can only make it to Lieutenant, which is an impressive achievement on an OOC level because it means you stuck it out for an RL year or better, but IC you're probably 1 of about 100. Or, you can be Noble, but only one of the bottom-rung nobles. I've heard of players getting stored for climbing up to "Senior Noble" or whatever the 2nd promotion in the ladder would be.
Having players stuck so low seems pretty limiting on what you can actually achieve IG, both in terms of sculpting the game world and learning its secrets. And, frankly, how many players do you think -legitimately- learned about Hadon (?) or any of the stuff in the end of the world plots? The only way to learn more about the game world you play in seems to be to share info like this...
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388 
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Post by jesantu on Feb 23, 2016 1:42:47 GMT -5
I would like to think having a growing public hall of fame would be a big selling point for a game that is supposed to be RPI. That's the biggest disappointment with arm. pcs amount to nothing in the end. When your pc dies he or she will be forgotten. I remember one clan imm a long time ago actually told me that that's the point of the game. That it helped reinforce the harshness and bleakness of zalanthas. You die and the world moves on as if you had never existed. If current admin wanted to continue being control freaks they could easily masquerade that fixation as player empowerment. Like when that allanaki spy went to tuluk and became a hlum noble. They could just keep doing shit like this and create the illusion of player empowerment, since that is all they seem to want. |
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Post by BitterFlashback on Feb 24, 2016 23:29:28 GMT -5
Hell, even if you did die alone and forgotten IC, wouldn't you want to see the giant picture your tiny grain of colored sand completed?
I'm blown away by how much importance the staff put on furthering plots that players never actually get to see. Yet when a fraction of this masterwork leaks out, the staff announce they're going to cull history and not tell anyone what parts they keep. Just what in the hell is the benefit of keeping 85% of the secret history a secret? One of the only unspoiled perks of going staff is you actually get to find out what the hell is going on.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want them to ruin an on-going mystery, but stuff that is more than a year old? Why isn't there a whole section of the site dedicated to the stories furthering the megaplots they're all so hung up on squashing player activity to preserve?
In fact, let me put aside my barbs for a moment. There are a staggering number of awesome scenes and plotlines I can recall from back in the day that, were I a prospective player, would sell me on powering through the learning curve for a chance at being part of.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Mar 1, 2016 0:53:50 GMT -5
There is no benefit. What do people expect from muds.. like actual good game design or something? Come on.
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Post by topkekm8s on Mar 4, 2016 11:40:36 GMT -5
The rpi player is exponentially more talented than 99% of 'gamers' so of course there is going to be a huge amount of pressure put on the people who run any given game. And since Arm is like THE rpi... Give it time. Its only a matter of time before the format is tackled from a more modern angle
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Post by jcarter on Mar 4, 2016 12:13:11 GMT -5
The rpi player is exponentially more talented than 99% of 'gamers' so of course there is going to be a huge amount of pressure put on the people who run any given game. And since Arm is like THE rpi... Give it time. Its only a matter of time before the format is tackled from a more modern angle there's no pressure at all. no one expects volunteer staff running a hobbyist endeavor to be perfect or great at everything and that's ok. that's when you reach out to players and get their assistance with feedback, or look to some of the many resources out there. the issue is that Arm staff tries to pretend that they are perfect and great at everything when it suits them, then fall back on "we're just volunteers!" excuse whenever they get criticized. Arm 2 was a bust, everyone knew it, but you still had staff playing the 'well we know better than you' line. Tuluk was a shitshow for a long time and players vocally complained, but nyr et al. kept up for the longest time that it was totally fine and great even after the unprecedented moment when the entire city got shut down because of how terrible it was. agility has been useless for a long time in combat, but staff never actually try and discuss ways to fix it or make it better with the playerbase that contains people who probably understand statistics and design much better than they do. but point out how brew has been broken for the last twenty years, or mention a request taking a month+ to get resolved, and the "we're not perfect we're just doing this for fun!" line comes out. |
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Post by topkekm8s on Mar 4, 2016 13:08:34 GMT -5
i dont disagree with you or bitter. however i dont think its fair to say they've never tried. like you pointed out, there are plenty of examples of incompetent obstinacy. the point i was trying to illustrate was that gaming culture has changed. you dont have to beg for another bowl of soup anymore. its more of a give and take than ever before, and arm has taken its sweet time trying to catch up. challenging that has been especially hard considering the archaic control freak schema of the game itself from the 'admin' side. muds were always about creating a legacy in that sense. if you create a world you want it to last forever as yours. you dont want a bunch of little cretins changing your work into something else. what do they know?
yea, nyr is a big gay we get it. but there are people who are actually trying and maybe we should try to be sympathetic to that? you dont have people on the starcraft forums critiquing your heart and soul based on your artistic merit. its a different animal. mud players are intense. im advocating sensitivity and patience.
give it time. better rpi's will most assuredly come, and arm will slowly transform into something better. if it doesn't, oh well lol
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
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Post by punished ppurg on Mar 4, 2016 14:00:49 GMT -5
I think the staff members who "actually tried" as you've put it either burned out fast or left because they were getting sandbagged too hard. Who was the staffer that killed Frifri's Salarri in the Arena? Weren't they removed from the team a few weeks later for "too many animations"?
There's pressing questions here that the staff team aren't able to ask themselves. They're obviously not players, and the staff-player divide is as true now as it was the day James De Monet tried to nip its discussion in the bud on the GDB.
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Post by jcarter on Mar 4, 2016 14:12:12 GMT -5
but there are people who are actually trying and maybe we should try to be sympathetic to that? you dont have people on the starcraft forums critiquing your heart and soul based on your artistic merit. its a different animal. mud players are intense. im advocating sensitivity and patience. i empathize with the staff members who are working and trying. my criticisms and thoughts on things are completely optional to the staff of arm though -- if they read it it's because they chose to go to an unaffiliated website of their own will and read what someone thought of them. in regards to critiquing heart and soul lol i deal with that on a weekly basis. i constantly have people i work with and people viewing my research questioning, criticizing, and judging me based off of my methods, analysis, and outcomes. things that my career and reputation depends on. i don't get the luxury of sticking my fingers in my ear and drowning it out or not justifying every single thing i do. but you know what? i'm not a big babby about it. there are things i don't have a good reason for, or analysis that I shouldn't have done, or w/e and i get critiqued for it publicly in front of an audience. you think mud players are intense? try having tenured professors who have built careers around one method and so set in their ways they can't fathom anything else doing what they can to dismiss any research you have. yeah i momentarily feel dumb/embarassed but in the end i take the criticism and make myself a better person because of it without dismissing my shortcomings as "well im new to this/this is outside my scope!!". so yeah i don't really think highly of people who run a hobbyist video game that's supposed to be fun for players but repeatedly reject or ignore feedback from players while stubbornly sticking to their guns out of some lame e-pride or cyber egos. |
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Post by lyse on Mar 4, 2016 17:50:12 GMT -5
This is a good topic. You all know how I feel about storytelling, so I won't go into that. Before the leak, you got the sense that there was something going on, people always dropped hints about it on the GDB, one of the many annoying things about it. But still, looking at the coming soon thread or the stories they put up, you got the sense that you too could be a part of those stories...but most players just aren't. I had the feeling these things were playing out somewhere in real time with staff playing characters with...staff.
The good:
There were some good storylines in there. I was surprised that some of them were well laid out. It put a smile on my face.
The bad:
Some of the storylines were like: propose bad deal to Kadius leader. A) if he accepts proceed with story. B) if he refuses kill Kadius leader and proceed with story. Wtf?!
I had the feeling staff were practicing a 'trickle down' style of plot. We know how trickle down anything works out. Might've been because staff doesn't trust players with plots or maybe players are just so unpredictable giving too much would change the outcome of the entire plot. I don't know. What I got out of reading the leak was the world was so rich with potential. It just has to be put out in a way that people can feel and be a part of more.
I hope that's what they're trying to do more of now.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Mar 4, 2016 19:35:33 GMT -5
muds were always about creating a legacy in that sense. if you create a world you want it to last forever as yours. you dont want a bunch of little cretins changing your work into something else. what do they know? This stumble in the direction of on-topic raises an interesting side-question. I asked what the advantage of keeping most of the game's history a secret; you've suggested the question, "Does hiding the game's history endanger its legacy?" I've seen Nyr caught pulling 1984-style rewritings of game history mid-argument, in order to cover up the fact that his description of how everything's with X has nothing to contradict it. Sometimes he's ignored stuff that's been one way for the entirety of the game up until he edited the helpfile he was simultaneously contradicting. The whole thing is a little disturbing. You've got a group of people keeping a super secret version of the game's history, of which maybe 5% is common knowledge, and all of which can be retconned without notice. Meanwhile, you've got a staggering number of players, most of whom will have their contributions to the story in-game lost/forgotten/rewritten/retconned, despite their activity being the vast majority of what happens in the game. If Arm was a war, the players' time spent in-game would be valued about as much as (and serve the same purpose of) the dirt the soldiers march across. |
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