|
Post by lyse on Jul 26, 2015 22:32:23 GMT -5
Soooo, let's say I had a barebones version of armageddon from 1999. I don't know anything about coding, but someone just gave me the code. What would you tinker with, adjust or change?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 6:42:35 GMT -5
The question was: Does Armageddon have any recourse regarding copyright infringement? Answer: They do not as a derivative work and a non-profit work on top of that. Those two factors would hamper any potential case that Armageddon's owner(s) could make at actually having another game shut down. If you use a literal mirror of the game, that would be slightly different. Now is it ethical to create a MUD based off Armageddon with a different codebase that emulates the original? Meh. I wouldn't find it unethical seeing as the majority of text-based games are derivative of existing IPs with or without those IP owner's consents. I wouldn't personally do it. EDIT It is my understanding that Armageddon Staff sign some form of NDA/Contract. Considering Anaiah has publically violated her staff agreement, I would expect for her to have a lawsuit pending. As she does not (to my knowledge) I wouldn't expect any legal recourse against a non-profit game opening up that is derivative of Armageddon. The answer is "it depends." If you're talking about the code, then no they don't, the code isn't copyrighted by them, it's copyrighted by DIKU. If you're talking about the content, then yes they do. Now, whether or not they choose to act on their copyright, is another matter entirely. Just like whether or not they choose to act on a contract violation, doesn't mean that Anaiah didn't violate the contract. Remember Delerak vs. Armageddon - his whole thing about getting Armageddon in trouble for using Dark Sun material. Wizards of the Coast most certainly did get involved - but obviously in the end, chose not to make a fuss about it. If they had chosen otherwise, Armageddon would have been shut down. They've shut down other games in the past for violating copyright. Wizards of the Coast does -not- own DIKU, and cannot shut down a DIKU game just because it's a deriv of DIKU. They can, however, shut down a game that is using D&D content without their permission. Armageddon can attempt to shut down another game for using Armageddon content. They might not succeed, but they can certainly try.
|
|
Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
|
Post by Jeshin on Jul 27, 2015 8:44:25 GMT -5
In the US legal system you can do a lot of stupid shit that won't ever succeed. Luckily for a lot of people pursuing stupid shit in the US legal system costs money. A lot of law suits and legal cases are won on the expense of mounting a successful defense or prosecution. Armageddon's Staff have not displayed any desire to pursue legal means at all (because they would lose).
So sure they could come after you and you could tell them to pound sand. They can't prove damages to their non-existent income. They can't prove that Armageddon isn't just a fan modification of Dark Sun, thus derivative and free-use anyway lest WotC decide to re-open their case against them. The only incident where Armageddon staff might have a shot is if you had a mirror copy of their codebase and made 0 changes. 1999 copy of the codebase probably is significantly different from the 2015 version so... while I think it's kind of sleezy, you're probably safe.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2015 10:38:52 GMT -5
I doubt the staff have the time money or inclination to sue anyone over making a competing game. What's their motivation? If it's to keep their pbase, they could more easily do that by having a better game.
|
|
|
Post by jcarter on Jul 27, 2015 10:53:41 GMT -5
even if you stole the code and put up a direct copy named Armageddon, it would likely be on the order of tens of thousands of dollars worth of lawyer costs for them to track down who you are and initiate filings over something that has zero monetary damage. if you used a host outside of the US like in Russia there would be jackshit they could do.
if it was an actual company with MUD involving money like Iron Realms I'd be more cautious but otherwise lol at the idea of nyr walking into a lawyer's office and cracking open a little piggy bank to count out quarters so he could get a Armageddon rip-off taken down.
|
|
Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
|
Post by Jeshin on Jul 27, 2015 11:23:17 GMT -5
Quick Note
While Armageddon may not have a legal course of action open to them due to chance of success, cost, or lack of interest in pursuing it. That doesn't mean they are completely without tools to bury a "rip-off" game. For example the diku license is pretty much 99.99% unenforced. Part of the license includes contacting the creators to inform them and blah blah blah blah. The majority of game owners do not do that and so they are technically violating the license agreement. No one cares.
The text-based gaming community does care when people try and use diku derived code for profit though. While I have yet to hear of a cease and desist letter being sent to games trying to profit off of non-profit codebases. I do know that the community blacklists those games pretty hardcore. It's one of the reasons that monetizing a MUD (even with a custom codebase) is still frowned upon by many people today.
TLDR - Armageddon could appeal to the greater text-based gaming community to blacklist a "rip-off" game that stole their codebase or their IP. That would be something they could succeed at and it'd depend on the exact situation whether anyone would care.
|
|
|
Post by jcarter on Jul 27, 2015 13:07:42 GMT -5
after seeing gamers fork over their money for vaporware kickstarters, continually pre-ordering, and funding abandoned early access games i don't put much stock in blacklists, mud shunning, or whatever
|
|
|
Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Jul 27, 2015 14:59:00 GMT -5
I've actually got a small team together working on an RPI with an original setting.
Taking cues from this board on what -not- to do.
Will update as progress happens.
|
|
punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
|
Post by punished ppurg on Jul 27, 2015 15:59:40 GMT -5
Lol, unless that "contract" was notarized and presided over by an attorney, it doesn't mean shit in the US court system.
|
|
|
Post by BitterFlashback on Jul 27, 2015 19:39:49 GMT -5
I have about 10 7 people who have said they won't make accounts here or on Optional Realities because they're concerned their characters will be marginalized on Armageddon. Maybe those people are lying to me to spare me the pain of telling me they aren't interested in posting here or OR, but they do seem to read both websites. Let them know I'll post anything on their behalves they want, representing it as either anonymously submitted material or just silently presenting it as my own knowledge (their choice; whichever works best for them), would you? Didn't someone already kind of try to do that with Black Sands? TOO SOON
Why hasn't the playerbase, disgruntled players and staff come up with Armageddon 2.0 on their own? I can only speak for myself, but since a staggering number of the disgruntled playerbase I originated from also tested INTJ, I think my answer will cover a number of people. A MUD is a massive, long-term social commitment. That's a pretty huge turn-off to introverts, which is a problem because so much of creating a MUD (programming, building, programming, programming) falls to tasks extroverts find emotionally tiring. Even if you find people to work with, you run the risk of having mismatched visions without realizing it in advance, which is just more social bullshit you'll have to deal with. I don't think MUDs are dead, it's just not 1994. Agreed.
I'll throw the elephant back at you: Because it's easier to be pissed at Armageddon for not being perfect, than it is to create the perfection you claim to want. Armchair mud-creators are a dime a dozen, because they don't have to do any of the actual work Every time you make complete sense it creeps me out.
People have invested years into getting to the point of playing templars, psions and sorcs. If a new Arm iteration opened but karma wasnt transferred, how many of you would find this a barrier to transfer? I've believed karma is a terrible system and have been outspoken on the matter of replacing it in any new MUD. In short: I think the best system would be one where you are passively awarded spendable points for time spent role playing without offenses, and losing these points upon offense. That way, off-peak players (and people just not interesting the staff enough to be watched) aren't utterly screwed over by their lack of audience. Arm is successful because of social groups. Players leave the games in groups when one of theirs is wronged, and make characters to play in groups based on ooc connections all the time. What would it take to get whole social groups to move over at the same time, so that the new game could get to a population "critical mass"? I'd be more concerned with how to keep some of the social groups from migrating ... but seriously, the main things that appeal to old disgruntled players is getting back the hope they used to have with Arm. Playing a game where it genuinely seems like what you do can matter in some small way with quick gratification. Being able to start a chain reaction in the playerbase that grows and mutates like a cancer continues long after your character's death and influence leave it. Encouraging both individualism and entrepreneurial spirit, instead of treating them both like signs the player is a degenerate. I dont know what legal resources or recourse the Arm owners would have in the way of copyright infringement. Any guesses? Their recourse is a combination of fuckall and nothing. Under US copyright law, anything made through the unlicensed use or derivative work of copyrighted material is the property of the infringed party, not the shithead creating something out of it. The degree to which a derivative work is owned by the infringed party depends upon how much of the new work is original. Arm is currently a Tyranid-housing (Games Workshop) blatant Dark Sun knockoff (Wizards of the Coast) with a dash of Dune (Frank Herbert) and a recent splash of Halflife headcrabs (Valve). Somewhere mixed into all that is a shitload of player-generated content that, even if entirely original, would be the property of its creators, given that even if Arm forced everyone to sign releases today to keep playing the game, those aren't retroactive to cover every contributor who quit the game beforehand. They can prove they own something like no percent of the material, and any lawsuit would put them on the spot for their infringement. So... you know... good luck proving what part of Arm the staff is entitled to damages on.
|
|
jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
|
Post by jkarr on Jul 28, 2015 3:43:47 GMT -5
... but seriously, the main things that appeal to old disgruntled players is getting back the hope they used to have with Arm. Playing a game where it genuinely seems like what you do can matter in some small way with quick gratification. Being able to start a chain reaction in the playerbase that grows and mutates like a cancer continues long after your character's death and influence leave it. Encouraging both individualism and entrepreneurial spirit, instead of treating them both like signs the player is a degenerate. u nailed it *ding* welcome to shadow boards mud!
|
|
mesuinu
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
|
Post by mesuinu on Jul 29, 2015 15:08:31 GMT -5
Making a MUD work isn't just about having the codebase. If you wanted to build an Arm knockoff, although it wouldn't be Arm without the weird DIKU-style skills, it might be a good idea to consider a more stable/flexible codebase. Optional Realities' forum has an engine comparison somewhere, I think. It's also not a one person job unless you have a LOT of time on your hands to just get it up and running. You need some dedicated staff, and there's no guarantee any of the many bitter people who browse this forum have the time, energy or skill for running the storylines necessary to make it feel like PCs have any impact on the world.
If you're serious about doing this, good luck.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2015 15:31:42 GMT -5
Wait for Futureware.. VaporMUD... whatever it's called.
|
|
|
Post by topkekm8s on Jul 29, 2015 19:01:13 GMT -5
... but seriously, the main things that appeal to old disgruntled players is getting back the hope they used to have with Arm. Playing a game where it genuinely seems like what you do can matter in some small way with quick gratification. Being able to start a chain reaction in the playerbase that grows and mutates like a cancer continues long after your character's death and influence leave it. Encouraging both individualism and entrepreneurial spirit, instead of treating them both like signs the player is a degenerate. u nailed it *ding* welcome to shadow boards mud! right in the fucken feels
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2015 14:04:18 GMT -5
Soooo, let's say I had a barebones version of armageddon from 1999. I don't know anything about coding, but someone just gave me the code. What would you tinker with, adjust or change? I started making a huge write-up, but then I realized it could get me identified/banned.
|
|