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Post by sirra on Apr 24, 2015 16:36:09 GMT -5
If one person can have that effect on the game then maybe you really can be the change...  Make me a psionic templar with a legion of NPC hg guards and I'll show you change. Qoriya was basically the templar that convinced me if that was the bar staff was setting as to appropriate behavior in resolving PC conflics, then I had to kick it up a notch and stop mincing around. I was being way too nice, and allowing way too much RP before killing someone. |
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Apr 24, 2015 16:36:37 GMT -5
Let's posit that Qoriya was horrible in all ways. Do you think that if she never existed that Tuluk would now be thriving and not about to be shut down maybe forever? No. I posit in the absence of a Qoriya, a Qoriya-like figure would have inevitably arisen. Because that's what happens when you combine a shitty, boring city with shitty, boring people and give them a psionic templar as overlord. For all I know, Qoriya isn't even at the extreme end of how badly that could have gone. She could have been perfectly average and we were spared something even worse. I agree. Insofar that Qoriya was a problem, it wasn't a problem with her as such, just that she was playing the role of a Lirathan to the fullest extent designed by the staff. However, I think that Tuluk would have done fine with mindbending templars if other conditions were met: no glass ceilings, no clan caps, more noble roles allowed, more support for leader PCs, etc. After all, Tuluk had mindbending templars in 2006, too. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 16:36:52 GMT -5
So is Qoriya pronounced 'Korea'?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 16:37:59 GMT -5
Yeah, but she wasn't the ones capping clans and acting like a clown on the staff side of things.
I guess it would be an undertaking of sorts to examine the changes in staff in Tuluk at the time...
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I have written about when manonfire made a Dasari noble, with ourla and I special apping twins to work for him... The whole experience just sorta fizzled because, in an area already hard to recruit and hire minions in, the staff maybe it even harder to pull people in. Even something as simple as having the arena open for multiple clans to spar in would have helped facilitate interaction. But, the ways things were, the glass ceiling RRR referred to was hit almost, well, immediately.
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Apr 24, 2015 16:38:13 GMT -5
So is Qoriya pronounced 'Korea'? That's how I always pronounced it in my head. |
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Post by sirra on Apr 24, 2015 16:38:34 GMT -5
So is Qoriya pronounced 'Korea'? It's pronounced 'Order 1.guard subdue elf;order 2.guard kill elf;order 3.guard fuck elf's corpse'. |
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tedium
Clueless newb
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Post by tedium on Apr 24, 2015 16:42:35 GMT -5
3 and 4. Unlike in 2006, the players learned that there are OOC glass ceilings and tons of OOC red tape to get anything done as a leader in the game. They learned that regardless of whatever they did IC'ly, the relative position of the noble houses in Tuluk wouldn't change based on PC actions. They learned they were capped on hiring PCs into their clans. They learned that they were OOC'ly barred from hiring certain types of PCs by the staff (such as "military" PCs into Tenneshi). They learned that being ambitious often led to being hammered down, IC'ly or OOC'ly like the nail that sticks up taller than the others. This is what baffles me about staff's decisions over the years. They claim that they want player-driven plots instead of staff-driven plots, but create an environment which prevents just that, such as the elimination of the Red Fang and arbitrary rules about where and how often desert elves can raid. When players funnel into clans the leadership is strangled with red tape and not allowed to do player-driven plots from that level, either. Surprise surprise, players flee clans and do independent RP, which causes staff to crack down on independent unofficial clans by changing mastercraft rules to require certain clan representation or sponsorship. It's as if they have an idea of what they want players to do, but are absolutely terrible at getting them to do it. Rather than open a dialogue with players about why they aren't doing that thing, staff hits them every time they don't, without ever telling them what they're supposed to do. It's very kafkaesque. Qoriya was a symptom of the problem rather than the source of the problem. She was following her role in the theme to the best of her ability. All-knowing telepaths should never be in charge of disappearing players instead of manipulating them. It's not her fault that the theme was fundamentally flawed, or that she stood watch over the last avenue of player conflict staff had allowed within the city. |
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Apr 24, 2015 16:46:16 GMT -5
Yes, I will gladly admit that my placing the blame (at least part of it) on Qoriya is weak at best and is probably fueled by my own negative bias and some stories I've heard over the years. I certainly do not have any tangible proof of that and will gladly accept your argument, since you seem to have had a lot more experience with her than I probably did. Yes, you are definitely right about #3, most of the amazing things I've witnessed were in part thanks to the freedom those leaders were allowed to do and the help (even encouragement) from Staff they were given to do so (Oh, just read your #4 so I guess we agree on that, heh) I've played a lot with Raleris (not so much you, I -think- when I played with your Chosen (but mostly your IC wife, and yep, she was awesome!) it was many years ago and I played a kid that got tossed into the training dummy and got murdered (apparently by "mistake" by a guy who was then banned from the city?) - That was a really stupid event, I got subdued, tossed into the dummy then the dummy kept me "locked" and I couldn't flee it until I was beaten to death by my sparring partner. Staff declared it a legit death and I said fuck it, got pissed for a few weeks then got back in.. ANYWAY As I was saying, I played a lot with Raleris and even though he had a lot of plans, he never had the number of players he needed to make those plans happen and I think he spent his entire life awaiting those numbers of players in his clan to achieve the basic of what he wanted to do and you could "sense" that he was getting cynical/despairing as the years went by. Don't blame it at all, again, he deserves the medal of patience. Oh well, again, I'm hoping that Staff has once more reversed their stance and are looking to make exciting things happen once more (it at least feels that way, if you go by what they've been saying/doing lately). I recall that episode when your guy was killed by the stupid code bug. I remember Aristarche being pissed about it IC'ly and OOC'ly, too. Regarding Raleris and the staff making changes: he's now on the staff so maybe he'll change things? However, I think we disagree on what makes a clan/city/game thrive. You seem to think that purely staff run stuff can make things awesome (but maybe I'm reading your wrong)? I do get the impression that the staff feels that way, that they can design a clan or city and run an RPT and it'll be epic and fun regardless of which players or PCs are there, that players are fungible widgets. I disagree because I think that all the epic eras (Tuluk 2006, Salarr ED, others) required the right players, especially leaders, and that those players require either support or at least a free hand. |
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Apr 24, 2015 16:48:46 GMT -5
3 and 4. Unlike in 2006, the players learned that there are OOC glass ceilings and tons of OOC red tape to get anything done as a leader in the game. They learned that regardless of whatever they did IC'ly, the relative position of the noble houses in Tuluk wouldn't change based on PC actions. They learned they were capped on hiring PCs into their clans. They learned that they were OOC'ly barred from hiring certain types of PCs by the staff (such as "military" PCs into Tenneshi). They learned that being ambitious often led to being hammered down, IC'ly or OOC'ly like the nail that sticks up taller than the others. This is what baffles me about staff's decisions over the years. They claim that they want player-driven plots instead of staff-driven plots, but create an environment which prevents just that, such as the elimination of the Red Fang and arbitrary rules about where and how often desert elves can raid. When players funnel into clans the leadership is strangled with red tape and not allowed to do player-driven plots from that level, either. Surprise surprise, players flee clans and do independent RP, which causes staff to crack down on independent unofficial clans by changing mastercraft rules to require certain clan representation or sponsorship. It's as if they have an idea of what they want players to do, but are absolutely terrible at getting them to do it. Rather than open a dialogue with players about why they aren't doing that thing, staff hits them every time they don't, without ever telling them what they're supposed to do. It's very kafkaesque. This. x1000. This is exactly right. The biggest single macro change to Arm over the years is the move away from clan play, IMO. I think that the staff has recognized this at some level, but they've gone about correcting it in totally the wrong way. Capping clan membership is a terrible way to improve clan membership. |
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malkeninthemiddle
Displaced Tuluki
Black woman lawyer on a television morning show
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Post by malkeninthemiddle on Apr 24, 2015 16:54:52 GMT -5
Yes, I will gladly admit that my placing the blame (at least part of it) on Qoriya is weak at best and is probably fueled by my own negative bias and some stories I've heard over the years. I certainly do not have any tangible proof of that and will gladly accept your argument, since you seem to have had a lot more experience with her than I probably did. Yes, you are definitely right about #3, most of the amazing things I've witnessed were in part thanks to the freedom those leaders were allowed to do and the help (even encouragement) from Staff they were given to do so (Oh, just read your #4 so I guess we agree on that, heh) I've played a lot with Raleris (not so much you, I -think- when I played with your Chosen (but mostly your IC wife, and yep, she was awesome!) it was many years ago and I played a kid that got tossed into the training dummy and got murdered (apparently by "mistake" by a guy who was then banned from the city?) - That was a really stupid event, I got subdued, tossed into the dummy then the dummy kept me "locked" and I couldn't flee it until I was beaten to death by my sparring partner. Staff declared it a legit death and I said fuck it, got pissed for a few weeks then got back in.. ANYWAY As I was saying, I played a lot with Raleris and even though he had a lot of plans, he never had the number of players he needed to make those plans happen and I think he spent his entire life awaiting those numbers of players in his clan to achieve the basic of what he wanted to do and you could "sense" that he was getting cynical/despairing as the years went by. Don't blame it at all, again, he deserves the medal of patience. Oh well, again, I'm hoping that Staff has once more reversed their stance and are looking to make exciting things happen once more (it at least feels that way, if you go by what they've been saying/doing lately). I recall that episode when your guy was killed by the stupid code bug. I remember Aristarche being pissed about it IC'ly and OOC'ly, too. Regarding Raleris and the staff making changes: he's now on the staff so maybe he'll change things? However, I think we disagree on what makes a clan/city/game thrive. You seem to think that purely staff run stuff can make things awesome (but maybe I'm reading your wrong)? I do get the impression that the staff feels that way, that they can design a clan or city and run an RPT and it'll be epic and fun regardless of which players or PCs are there, that players are fungible widgets. I disagree because I think that all the epic eras require the right players, especially leaders, and that those players require either support or at least a free hand. Ehh, no, I don't think that it should be either all on Staff side or all on the player's side but it does feel that way to me in the last few years.. Either Staff does everything, and players are just puppets, or players do everything (but in a very limited way) and it makes everything stale and the same ol' same ol' type of RPTs that we've seen a million times in the past (again, bard shows, auctions and parties). I think that good leaders start appearing when they feel like what they want to offer the game (and their clans) will be met with an open mind and some help to achieve it, but if nothing ever happens then leaders don't seem to be happening either, so its a vicious circle that Staff needs to break. I certainly don't think that players are lacking imagination and goals, they're just not being encouraged to let it flow (again, I'm hoping that this is changing) so it's boring for everyone in the end, and that's what killed Tuluk in my opinion. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 16:56:44 GMT -5
No. I posit in the absence of a Qoriya, a Qoriya-like figure would have inevitably arisen. Because that's what happens when you combine a shitty, boring city with shitty, boring people and give them a psionic templar as overlord. For all I know, Qoriya isn't even at the extreme end of how badly that could have gone. She could have been perfectly average and we were spared something even worse. I agree. Insofar that Qoriya was a problem, it wasn't a problem with her as such, just that she was playing the role of a Lirathan to the fullest extent designed by the staff. However, I think that Tuluk would have done fine with mindbending templars if other conditions were met: no glass ceilings, no clan caps, more noble roles allowed, more support for leader PCs, etc. After all, Tuluk had mindbending templars in 2006, too. That's the heart of it. There were so many people who's play never got anywhere, all plots -but- that highschool intrigue bullshit was allowed by her. Motherfuckers did exactly as she could as a very cold, shrewd, ruthless woman. Which she was. Its what Lirathans were designed to be. |
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Apr 24, 2015 17:01:13 GMT -5
I recall that episode when your guy was killed by the stupid code bug. I remember Aristarche being pissed about it IC'ly and OOC'ly, too. Regarding Raleris and the staff making changes: he's now on the staff so maybe he'll change things? However, I think we disagree on what makes a clan/city/game thrive. You seem to think that purely staff run stuff can make things awesome (but maybe I'm reading your wrong)? I do get the impression that the staff feels that way, that they can design a clan or city and run an RPT and it'll be epic and fun regardless of which players or PCs are there, that players are fungible widgets. I disagree because I think that all the epic eras require the right players, especially leaders, and that those players require either support or at least a free hand. Ehh, no, I don't think that it should be either all on Staff side or all on the player's side but it does feel that way to me in the last few years.. Either Staff does everything, and players are just puppets, or players do everything (but in a very limited way) and it makes everything stale and the same ol' same ol' type of RPTs that we've seen a million times in the past (again, bard shows, auctions and parties). I think that good leaders start appearing when they feel like what they want to offer the game (and their clans) will be met with an open mind and some help to achieve it, but if nothing ever happens then leaders don't seem to be happening either, so its a vicious circle that Staff needs to break. I certainly don't think that players are lacking imagination and goals, they're just not being encouraged to let it flow (again, I'm hoping that this is changing) so it's boring for everyone in the end, and that's what killed Tuluk in my opinion. I agree with you 98%, and I'd only make this change: not only are players not being encouraged to let it flow, they're not even allowed to let it flow. I have no confidence that things will change. I came to my conclusion about the game years ago, while playing Dragean (who entered the game in January 2010 IIRC), but I thought that maybe I was wrong or that things would change. All my play since then was an effort to convince myself that things would improve. November 2014, when I stored my templar Htaniya, was when personally I gave up. I've seen nothing since to make me reconsider. Put another way: closing Tuluk is to cities what clan caps are to clans. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2015 17:07:35 GMT -5
RRR, so what do you think about Nyr's influence on Tuluk?
RGS posted in this thread about one person being the change, and well, I think some of the most damaging changes started when Nyr joined the Tuluki staff. I am genuinely not trying to beat up on him, but I mean, the timeline seems clear to me. Then again, I really don't like him, so I could see how my vision may be a little clouded on this front.
Just how much blame, if any, do you think should rest on his shoulders?
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malkeninthemiddle
Displaced Tuluki
Black woman lawyer on a television morning show
Posts: 279
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Post by malkeninthemiddle on Apr 24, 2015 17:07:48 GMT -5
I agree with you 98%, and I'd only make this change: not only are players not being encouraged to let it flow, they're not even allowed to let it flow. I have no confidence that things will change. I came to my conclusion about the game years ago, while playing Dragean (who entered the game in January 2010 IIRC), but I thought that maybe I was wrong or that things would change. All my play since then was an effort to convince myself that things would improve. November 2014, when I stored my templar Htaniya, was when personally I gave up. I've seen nothing since to make me reconsider. Put another way: closing Tuluk is to cities what clan caps are to clans. Yeah but that's the difference between you and I (and I'm saying that in a praising way to you), I have my ups and downs with Armageddon, always had, always will, but I also mostly play it on a "minimal" level, I have absolutely no goals when I create my characters anymore, I often try to make the silliest or weirdest characters I can think of and then just play it as it comes, taking breaks whenever I want to and because I still have "fun" just hunting once in a while, chatting with other characters about "stuff" and BS'ing my way into this crazy world. I also play a lot of Hearthstone on the side AND studying like mad when things get quiet, so I'm pretty easy to please. You're the kind of players that Armageddon definitely needs more of, the great leaders and the people that make awesome stuff happen, I'm not. Which is why it's sad to see you go, but I totally understand. If I were like you and I entered the game as a Chosen Lord or Templar with great goals and they were constantly squished down, yeah, I would have lost the fire long ago too. |
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Apr 24, 2015 17:17:31 GMT -5
RRR, so what do you think about Nyr's influence on Tuluk? RGS posted in this thread about one person being the change, and well, I think some of the most damaging changes started when Nyr joined the Tuluki staff. I am genuinely not trying to beat up on him, but I mean, the timeline seems clear to me. Then again, I really don't like him, so I could see how my vision may be a little clouded on this front. Just how much blame, if any, do you think should rest on his shoulders? You guys like putting me on the spot! So. As far as I know, Nyr didn't start clan caps, the glass ceiling, the closure of Tuluk, or even the stifling weekly report process for leaders. However, he certainly seems in favor of those things, so he's a part of a bigger problem. That said, IMO, he still deserves the credit for applying the coup de grace to Tuluk when it was already on life support. When he announced the "shadow artist" system on the GDB I posted my objections using my alt handle Sayyadina, and you can go back and read my critique at the time. Among all his other changes, the "shadow artist" system was the worst IMO, because it stamped out the last vestiges of clan play. It clearly didn't help Tuluki RP as the city is now about to be closed. |
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