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Post by topkekm8s on Jan 19, 2015 18:41:50 GMT -5
its all tongue and cheek breh
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ghost
staff puppet account
Posts: 47
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Post by ghost on Jan 23, 2015 20:24:32 GMT -5
like a boss
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Post by lulz on Jan 23, 2015 21:24:30 GMT -5
Your hate for assassins completely invalidated your otherwise good post in my eyes.
I've played more than one powerful assassin before, and while their fighting ability won't get that high unless they are lucky enough to get their base D high, they can STILL break into most places with a decent enough pick. Remember: it's not just the lockpick skill that matters, but also the quality of the pick so it won't break upon failure. Assassins can get their pick to 50 IIRC, and a couple of picks even offer a bonus from what I remember (maybe that was just those items looon's elf merchant made, can't remember.
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Patuk
Shartist
Posts: 552
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Post by Patuk on Jan 24, 2015 3:30:20 GMT -5
It was. Akai picks were (unsurprisingly) crazy.
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Post by sirra on Jan 24, 2015 12:02:24 GMT -5
Your hate for assassins completely invalidated your otherwise good post in my eyes. I've played more than one powerful assassin before, and while their fighting ability won't get that high unless they are lucky enough to get their base D high, they can STILL break into most places with a decent enough pick. Remember: it's not just the lockpick skill that matters, but also the quality of the pick so it won't break upon failure. Assassins can get their pick to 50 IIRC, and a couple of picks even offer a bonus from what I remember (maybe that was just those items looon's elf merchant made, can't remember. If it's any consolation, the guide was mainly directed at severe off/def twinking, and I linked to another thread where myself, oldtwink and jkarr all addressed why assassins will never reach that level, after a query from Gunslinger. That leaves them with backstab and pick. My contention is that even with akai picks, the assassin pick isn't good enough to get into most places. In my experience, anyways, it often wasn't good enough even for apartments. I'd still rather take ranger/thief. You are fine with the ripping I gave burglars and pickpockets, right? I'm surprised noone's objected to my denigrating half-elves and muls yet. I loved the guide, thanks Sirra No, thank you!
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Post by Procrastination on Jan 24, 2015 12:52:30 GMT -5
Really, best I can tell, the beauty of ranger shines in its diversity, and for a certain play style, ranger is amazing. Truthfully though, unless I've misread something somewhere, the actual combat potential between a ranger and an assassin isn't so large a gap as to be insurmountable. A ranger should obviously be using slashing or chopping to fight an assassin. Doing so will cripple the assassin's potential to really defend against them, you're absolutely right. In reality though, the current fetish is bludgeoning, and that goes for warriors and rangers. Only a few really long lived rangers still use slashing, and I think that has to do more with the fact that warriors or other rangers in the south or north in the beginning get those bonuses, and the average player says 'Hey, this is my bonus, I get a head start. Gonna do this!', level that skill really high first, so some rangers try to plan for that make a skill like bludgeoning their 'real' hitter. Cause when's the last time you've seen an assassin around long enough to really get up their offense and defense? Bludgeoning puts you on fair ground with the warrior then. Assuming you're not going to poison up. In which case, you're already limiting your potential to fight an assassin, and a small slashing weapon is your go to. Only seen one in game of anything less than shit quality. It isn't easy even for less squishy characters. Obviously any well and long lived ranger is going to try to get everything up a ways, but I'm just talking general aspirations for the starting and mid range character. Most people never see the higher plateaus of skills on a character, for a variety of reasons. Overall though...nice post.
I guess my only real issue with it is the logic of 'you can do this and this'. When some fella rolls up on you, dual wielding his crystalline long knives, laced with heramide and perraine too, are you going to be thinking 'He's an assassin!'...probably not. There's good odds he's a ranger. So you won't switch. The game will be...relevantly, even. If he backstabs you, and you happen to have one of all four types of weapons within easy reach to consider swapping to cause on the spot you knew you needed your 'specially designed to kill the assassin who just dropped me to poor condition slashing knife', then sure, you'll know he's an assassin, you can do what you will. Assuming when you suddenly change from your 'help me kill warriors' plan to your 'shit its an assassin' plan, and you reach for them, you don't get stabbed in the throat.
Again, just to clarify, really loved the informative post. My cynicism isn't an attempt to discredit the information, by any means.
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Post by Procrastination on Jan 24, 2015 13:28:07 GMT -5
tldr; if you're preparing to fight one specific type of people, and you're expecting that person, the person you're not expecting is bound to fuck you up, and you can't possibly be prepared for all scenarios at once. How do rangers manage to kill warriors? Poison, arrows from a distance. How do rangers do the same to assassin? Probably the same. Assuming you get that assassin before he gets you. Similarly though, an assassin who has also twinked up that offense and defense(I know, bear with me, it's rare) is gonna turn you on your head. If he's just backstabbed you, and you're unarmed, ouch. If you had your weapons out preparing for that other ranger or warrior (I'm assuming you don't ride around randomly with your bow equipped but that is a situation a bit different), you probably don't wanna put down the perraine or heramide coated knife to try to get your slashing. If you were a certain fella with a very nice short blade that was high quality and slashing, and that was your go-to for all types of combat, then I suppose you've the best odds of standing an attack...except that any random odd warrior or other ranger in the south probably has decent slashing and most wouldn't do that. It's circular.
It occurs to me my tldr is nearly as long. Damn, I suck at this.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,515
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Post by Jeshin on Jan 24, 2015 13:33:49 GMT -5
The current ranger meta of bludgeoning could have been (ego ahead people) because of Elrum and Zarah in Tuluk. Both of them were very well known in the combat circles and they both espoused the benefits of bludgeoning. Also Zarah won the Luirs pitfight with a 2 handed baobab staff (she got from me). There is also the mathematical fact that bludgeoning is more efficient than other weapons due to the dual dmg it deals. It is especially efficient against PCs because they will often have listen/scan running reducing their stun and are often waying and thus have reduced stun from that and a head shot can do 80+ stun.
Edit - The reason I link it to them is bludgeoning didn't seem popular outside the delves until they started it and started teaching everyone ICly about it in tuluk but that is ancedotal experience of 2 years.
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Post by sirra on Jan 24, 2015 16:00:06 GMT -5
Really, best I can tell, the beauty of ranger shines in its diversity, and for a certain play style, ranger is amazing. Truthfully though, unless I've misread something somewhere, the actual combat potential between a ranger and an assassin isn't so large a gap as to be insurmountable. A ranger should obviously be using slashing or chopping to fight an assassin. The gap is massive. Beyond the fact that an assassin has lower parry, and is missing two weapons (which make a huge difference when fighting people with those weapons...the same reason warrior advanced weapons seem so good). An assassin has a much harder time twinking off/def. An assassin has less mobility (probably a shit ride, and no archery). All the assassin has to rely on is backstab. That said. Assassins and rangers each fight far more warriors than each other, as assassins typically stay in the city and a ranger is best outside. (Although, a ranger/thief is far better off than an assassin/hunter). Still, good post. And a good view on things.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
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Post by grumble on Jan 24, 2015 16:17:40 GMT -5
wat abot asasin brede owtdoresmin?
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Patuk
Shartist
Posts: 552
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Post by Patuk on Jan 24, 2015 16:35:02 GMT -5
I think ranger/slipknife makes for a loooooot more dangerous combination than that.
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Post by sirra on Jan 24, 2015 17:16:03 GMT -5
wat abot asasin brede owtdoresmin? I think ranger/slipknife makes for a loooooot more dangerous combination than that. Eh. I'm not counting extended subguilds. As far as I know, you can only app them once a month. You need to special app them instead of how they should be treated, which is as just another karma option in the character creation process...and everyone knows when you special app something, you get a shit stat roll. So yes. Sure, you can't go wrong with hardly any extended subguild. And if it was treated like karma race/class options are, I'd be all over them. If you get lucky, that's great. And I'm sure extended subguilds are why a lot of people are wandering around with subpar stats. They don't want to suicide their special app. It's kind've like being a mul. If you app a mul, get great stats, and get welcomed into some kind of clan setting where you have protection and freedom and sparring partners. Good for you - you've won Armageddon. But realistically, your average mul is going to suck because they can't even remotely twink off/def and their skills to the level that a human or dwarf gets away with. A dwarf with exceptional strength/endurance is incredible, and I don't even care what their agility/wisdom is. Although, ideally, it'll be 10+ each at least (so around average). And no one cares what a dwarf does. I will say - there's been far more muls on Armageddon, than there's been players who've twinked their offense/defense to absurdly high levels. People that think they have a high off/def often don't. Because regular, decent people often need to play in combat heavy rolls for 80-100 days plus (brawling a lot to boot), and even horrible twinks need at least ~35-45 days to even get 'up there'. Let alone, retardedly high. No one has ever gotten 'retardedly high' without fist fighting a lot of stilt lizards. Even punching gith will only take you to 'fairly high'.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Jan 24, 2015 17:19:28 GMT -5
first has and adv for short-range indoor/maybe outdoor killing second has adv for long-range outdoor/maybe indoor killing
the biggest danger for either combo comes from forgetting ur char isnt a warrior after uve grinded up ur melee
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Post by sirra on Jan 24, 2015 17:26:55 GMT -5
first has and adv for short-range indoor/maybe outdoor killing second has adv for long-range outdoor/maybe indoor killing the biggest danger for either combo comes from forgetting ur char isnt a warrior after uve grinded up ur melee Most people just want to be king shit in the sparring circle. Which a ranger totally can be, against all but ancient, master warriors with advanced weapons and sparring versions of those advanced weapons. If you see anyone break out like, wooden razors - fuck that guy. He can spar someone else! If a warrior is easily defeating you in the sparring circle with regular weapons, then your off/def isn't actually that high. Or you have neglected one of your four weapon skills and so aren't getting a parry bonus. In a real fight, say out in the wastes, that warrior either has no-hands ride, whereupon he's a smart and worthy foe, and is death incarnate if he has an advanced weapon like trident and shield to boot. Or he doesn't have no-hands ride, and should be an easy kill. Or if you were an assassin - you backstab him and either hope he dies/falls paralyzed, or sit there for 12 seconds in skill lag as he disarms and reams you. If he's a good warrior. My examples tend to suggest 'the reasonably best you can expect'. Obviously, a 3 day warrior will get raped by a 20 day assassin.
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Post by Procrastination on Jan 24, 2015 17:36:07 GMT -5
In my experience, I'm going to say Ranger/Thief is better than Assassin/Hunter on average only because the forage and desert quit. The rest of the drawbacks of Assassin can be worked off, and anyone can kill anyone(outside certain gickers), so I don't much care for combat issue there, but that ranger d-quit and get food or drink from the ground? Consider me jealous.
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