Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 2:51:27 GMT -5
I will admit another motivator beside the economic. I think that one of Arm's largest (non-people) failures is the dearth of places or resources to contest in the game. Short of pking anyone who tried to travel between cities, forage for the krathi ring components, or grind on hawks/stilt lizards/spiders... If there were more objects of contention, players could more readily invent their own conflicts, driving story. I think the problem is less with a lack of those things, and more with the fact that people who are in a natural position to be at each others throats over markets and profits and products have been conveniently designed to have a noncompetition clause with each other, and (also conveniently - for the staff, no doubt) players can no longer reach high enough positions in these organizations to be in the position to break those agreements, which is the real problem. The entire game is designed to squash competition between clans and play up aggression between 2 opposing cities which barely if ever actually exists in a way that meaningfully affects (or is affected by) players. Same with race relations as cities, so your conflict is forced to be north/south or interracial, or mundane v abomination, more or less, which all keeps playing in a clan from being filled with that sort of contesting of things. That's just my own thoughts though. |
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Jan 12, 2015 3:23:42 GMT -5
I've always been a big supporter of code being harsh and realistic. I always wanted weapons to break more often and need repairs. I remember once I posted on the GDB about weapon breakages and I was completely castrated by everybody. Nobody agreed with me and said weapons break fairly often enough.
Really? Ur gonna sit thar and tell me a 17 yr vet that weapons break that often? I've had 50+ day rangers and warriors and have fought countless hours on Arm, only twice have I had weapons break and that was both on muls/high-strength dwarves and its very iffy. The GDBs typical responses are to side with current meta so they don't piss off staff its funny as hell.
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Post by lulz on Jan 12, 2015 3:41:11 GMT -5
I thought you were being a snide and condescending prick (per the usual). Mission accomplished. ...and called you out on it. I hope doing so made you feel better. About everything. But most of all yourself. Because you deserve it. Feel free to resort to the same old tired ass name calling and clever one liners when not being sarcastic and adding nothing to the conversation as usual, though. It gives so much credence to the things you say. I almost felt bad and nearly apologized after I called you fat. Then I realized that you had a borderline genius IQ and couldn't possibly care what a plebe such as myself might say since you're the one rolling around in fat stacks of cash with that nice cush job you've go--oh wait. I feel I did add to the discussion by liking banme's idea. Liking it was my way of saying I think it has merit. My post after the fact had nothing to do with banme's suggestion or anyone in particular and was merely a jab at the mindset of several players. Please accept my most sincere apology for not taking time out of my working day to write up a novella on the implications of moving forward with such an idea. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 4:35:44 GMT -5
 delerak that's something else that (like food spoilage) I wouldn't mind seeing and think could add to the game in a meaningful and interesting way, it's not those things that I have any issue with. To be totally frank, it's the fact that you just know people will fuck up the actual realism of how it SHOULD work with idiocy in the same way that obsidian is basically zalanthan metal. And seeing more things like that would just irritate the shit out of me, personally, though I can't speak for others. |
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dcdc
Shartist
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Post by dcdc on Jan 12, 2015 10:59:29 GMT -5
I've always been a big supporter of code being harsh and realistic. I always wanted weapons to break more often and need repairs. I remember once I posted on the GDB about weapon breakages and I was completely castrated by everybody. Nobody agreed with me and said weapons break fairly often enough. Really? Ur gonna sit thar and tell me a 17 yr vet that weapons break that often? I've had 50+ day rangers and warriors and have fought countless hours on Arm, only twice have I had weapons break and that was both on muls/high-strength dwarves and its very iffy. The GDBs typical responses are to side with current meta so they don't piss off staff its funny as hell. GDB is insane. In one hand they'll cry if anything effects the current meta, or forces them to divert coins from silks or top stealth gear. But those same people will bitch up a storm there is too many indies, the game is soo easy when your an indie hunter, and everyone should be FORCED into clans. Their bi-polar I swear by it. |
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jan 12, 2015 19:55:20 GMT -5
While that system might work, and well, for a codebase that wasn't as old and disjointed as Arm's, there's so much crap going on there, and so many items already in game without that already, that it just seems like a ton of time and effort to sink into something that, as you yourself said, isn't going to really make people who see their pcs as nothing more than a bunch of stats will continue to do so, and will of course benefit from it, same as a million other tiny ways in the game (4 days grebbing salt with no emotes? well, they ARE a grebber!), and penalize the people who actually choose to roleplay properly, unless those people are choosing clanned roles only, and high ranking ones at that. To be clear, my point was since you can't forc lame rpers to stop treatng their characters like a bunch of stats, you can get them to simulate playing fuller characters by codng benfits and detriments around that. That said, yeah, itd be very time consuming to do in Arm because its got a metric fuckton of items and scripts lying around. There are countlss things they should be doing instead to salvage their dying game. and most of those things involve a complete staff culture change. I can see some merit in tying up the staff in updating several billion items instead of sabotaging pcs so i wouldnt toss the idea for that reason. TBH, I think that something like giving you the chance to lose a point or two of endurance for a week or two as a result of some sort of long term wear from eating stuff like moldy fruit makes sense, but giving buffs because the steak happened to be the 3000 coin version that is pretty much identical to the kind you can go out and hunt for free or buy on the cheap anyhow seems ridiculous. Agreed, but in my scenario i put forth that you could buy or make good food. The quality wasnt dependent upon the source. i agreed with the original post's motive and liked its implementation, but i don't deny it had issues. i wouldnt throw out the whole thing becaus it has problems. I'm not disagreeing with your general point about someone's state of contentment, but I do think that making it a coded stat in a real or meaningful (read realistic and intuitive) way is something which would be damn near impossible to code, just because people don't work like that over the short term, and over the long term, the effects are a lot more subtle and insidious than what code might account for, often manifesting in ways that have nothing to do with coded stats (as they currently are), like... depression, and chronic aches. in Arm, i agree. Arm is a lost cause as far as my idea went. But in another codebase? not so much. Any time you code a simulation, which is what a good mud resembles, you pick a point whre you tell realism to fuck off. You discard variabls and trust most people won't complain for fear of gettng their wish granted and having a hundred new things to keep track of. If you have thousands of coins to throw around, it's not an accident. Your character is doing something that is resulting in that. If you want it to be different, change it. But to force the hands of others over it seems like it would have little to no positive outcome besides longterm players who are jaded enough to do it posting lists here of what food buffs or debuffs you for how long, or bitching that X clan has better/more food of Y tier than the other clan does. Call me cynical, but I just see this as something that will result in more people bitching about it and dissatisfied than something that would enrich or make the game enjoyable for others. yeah, and the main thing i agreed with was the spirit of it. the implemtation is good but not perfect. but at the end of the day Arms had a long-running problem of money not really mattering. get in a clan, you have free room, board, and safe storage forever. then you buy your gear. then you just... sorta have money forever. There isnt really anything to do with it. You can entertain yourslf yeah. but unless youre a really self-motivated role player or need someone to spy for you then youll just wind up with a massive bank account you have no in-game outlet for using. this is a problem for a game that's supposed to have a massive economic disparity. but then Ive always wanted the game to actually match its docs. Arm needs some knd of economc sink. and ideally that sink would give additional value to one-time use things you have to have. or things that degrade over say an in-game year. Would you agree with that much (ignoing the "how to do it" of it for now)? |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 20:39:22 GMT -5
I agree it does, bitter, I just think that with the price of booze and spice, if you're regularly drinking and or using spice, that alone is enough of a coin sink, but there could definitely be other sources of coin sink that don't involve likely tanking stats/skills (even social ones, like contact, in the case of drinking), and that if it was something readily available all over, it would be good.
That said, I've had long lived clanned pcs and never had that issue, though after a while that involved things like sinking money willingly into things that weren't necessary like jewelry and trinkets and charity and buying drinks for other people or donating to the templarate/nobility (straight donating, the pc had no reason or need to bribe anyone) and other things, but as I kinda said before, it comes back around in the end to the problem being that people like to hoard things like money, deny their pcs realistic creature comforts and splurges they'd want if they were actual people, and as you said, the people who treat their pcs like nothing but a skill/stat sheet.
Believe it or not, bitter, there's not any point in here where I disagree with you, and I don't disagree with the spirit of what is being suggested. The implementation, yes. The competence of the people who would be implementing it to make realism actually realistic via researching what the fuck they're doing, yes. I even agree that buffs for people in clans getting food/water from clan cooks being alright, but I don't think that people who aren't should wind up with enough penalties to make being an independent less enjoyable and think that will result in nothing but endless bitching. <3
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jan 12, 2015 22:10:14 GMT -5
Yeah, i always had uses for money, but thats because i like role playing. i suspect a lot of us do. but it would have been nice if there was a little more immersion from something that simultaneously enforced the docs and got lazy players acting as if they realized their characters were supposed to be charactrs.
Anyhow, i asked because i figured the implementation was the only problem here. and i suspect you might help me come up with some alternate suggestions for banme. let's say banme's orignal implemntation is off the table for a sec. but that the goal of it is still on the table. Specifically: how do we make money important for everyone, whther new, established, or clanned?
let's talk clothes. Nyrs favorite topic as far as i can tell. What if you put in a clothing requirement on taverns, where middle and upper scale places snub you if you come in looking like filthy or bloody? Maybe have the upper class places require clean clothing with a certain minimum base value? and refuse to serve people wearing armor who dont have connections? What if being out in sandstorms slowly degraded silks and linens, causing them to get flags like "faded" and "worn" over time? Force people to put more effort into shielding their fancy garb and a motivation to replace it over time. Or to keep somethng for special occasions only. Maybe have nicer clothes give you a boost to barter attempts?
i know you didnt like to original food suggestion (and my idea would be impractcal to do in arm). But how about we start over? food quality and drink quality give minor boosts/losses, with medium quality food leaving you at the default? Id say they affect stamina loss, regen rate when resting or sleepng, poison resistance, and dsease resistance? Maybe at extremes you'd get a one-point shift in endurance and wisdom? The source of food would be irrelevnt and you could make any quality food if you could get the ingredients and had enough cooking skill. this would still favor the wealthy but not penalze the providers.
i'd also like to see something done with mounts. maybe have some code added where if you rest your mount often you develop a small positive relationship. Let you pay extra to have them fed better in stables? Let you buy food and feed them to restore stamina (limited by a timer)? Benefits would be a bonus to ride/trample commands. Maybe the mount might get over being attacked, assuming you did it on accident and disengaged quickly and werent just whaling on it for practice. it could make the mount more resistant to strangers hitching/riding them? making species-based tempraments could also be a route; maybe some species are ultra loyal and would be hostle to an unknown rider? i kind of like the idea of a well cared for mount attacking someone who stole your ticket right out of the stables. it'd be a way to add some more factors to picking a mount.
Comments? Additions? detractions? ideas entrely your own?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 22:38:05 GMT -5
I think that the best (and easiest) way to implement something food related on arm would be to make grey water quench less thirst so you have to drink more of it, if it doesn't already, thus motivating people who buy water to buy clear water. Also, to take stuff that's under 50 coins currently, foodwise, and double the cost. Then make a few NEW food items which are cheaper and while initially just as filling, make it something you can craft even, hell, why not, let's call it 'jozhal rinds' and be similar to pork rinds. IE junk food. Maybe after a month of eating only that type food, you are flagged 'fatigued', and can't rest up that last 10 stamina even sleeping, so you're capped at 20 stamina below max while only resting.
Also make the cheap food make you more thirsty, thus necessitating more water. Why? It's pork rinds, it's full of salt. In fact, you could even include one of the salts from the flats/saltlick up north, as an ingredient, which would represent that extra salt and also be intuitive, gee this has so much salt you have to have coded salt to make it, no wonder you get thirstier, that type of thing.
I love the idea of you being able to pay more for your mount for them to be stabled in better condition, in fact, you could make 2 extra npcs of each mount type, have the cost of stabling cut in half for one, and you get what seems the same mount but actually has an endurance range that's lets say 5 points lower than the normal mount, so it has to rest more often and can't go as far, allow you to pay twice as much and your mount would have endurance that is 5 points higher at the bottom end of the stat ranges, to represent the care and rest, and it would work with the 'load npc of X type' sort of script that works on stabling/unstabling said mounts currently. While the food idea could be cool, it sounds complicated to do without giving the pc some variant of the 'order' command, which could be difficult (not sure, but it seems like it could be complicated).
That said, if you did find a way to do that, I would suggest using an item already in the game, ie tambura grass/other grass items, and since they can already codedly be found in various plants in the appropriate places, it's another way that could add to the game without forcing people who don't have interest in chasing wealth IC to do and participate and not be penalized but also get in on the fun.
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Kronibas 2.0
Displaced Tuluki
this account will go inactive once I hit 420 posts
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Post by Kronibas 2.0 on Jan 12, 2015 22:51:48 GMT -5
Fucking nerds
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jan 12, 2015 23:02:05 GMT -5
Then make a few NEW food items which are cheaper and while initially just as filling, make it something you can craft even, hell, why not, let's call it 'jozhal rinds' and be similar to pork rinds. IE junk food. Maybe after a month of eating only that type food, you are flagged 'fatigued', and can't rest up that last 10 stamina even sleeping, so you're capped at 20 stamina below max while only resting. hell, why not, let's call it 'jozhal rinds' 'jozhal rinds' I'd build a fuckng Fale lord around this. After dabbing his parched, crusty lips with a silken silky piece of clearly expensve silk and quickly wetting them with his cracked looking tongue, the pale skinned dandy man says, in srhish:
"I know they're bad. Of course I know. But theyre sooooo goooooooooodddd..."
The pale skinned dandy man gestures helplessly to the heavens with his right hand as he gazes skyward, while his left casually pulls a dirty canvas bag of jozhal rinds into an embrace against his chest.speaking of effects of food, i totally forgot an idea I had. It's purely social. I'd like to see shitty foods apply an sdesc and mdesc modifer, implying you're unhealthy. Likewise fantastic foods would give you some sort of healthy glow. absolutely no benefit beyond a social whatnot to commnt on. Or something like the parched lips of my salt-addicted Fale. Which i would totally make if i and the rinds were in arm. Maybe some foods would make your skin greasy/oily? stuff like that. Also make the cheap food make you more thirsty, thus necessitating more water. hell yes While the food idea could be cool, it sounds complicated to do without giving the pc some variant of the 'order' command, which could be difficult (not sure, but it seems like it could be complicated). from what i recall of Arm scripting, you can basically invent a command word on the fly to trigger the script. Itd be a simple enough task to create a feed pseudo command and tie some metadata directly to the mount. That said, if you did find a way to do that, I would suggest using an item already in the game, ie tambura grass/other grass items, and since they can already codedly be found in various plants in the appropriate places, it's another way that could add to the game without forcing people who don't have interest in chasing wealth IC to do and participate and not be penalized but also get in on the fun. Oh, totally. I love the idea of turning stuff already in-game into somethng more useful whenever possible. youre just jealous of mah rinds. Theyre mad salty. |
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