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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 16:58:19 GMT -5
Lets assume a change to the food and water code. Food is divided out into say, five tiers.
The lowest food tier gives you a % chance per meal of a minor disease effect, easily shrugged off with a high endurance.
The lowest 2 tiers of food would give you active stat penalties, including a penalty to skill timers for skill growth, and a penalty to timers like master craft submissions. Maybe exempt hunt, forage and similar survival skills from this penalty. All raw food fits into the bottom two catagories.
The price of this second lowest tier (would be the current food prices).
The middle tier of food has no penalties, but is a big more expensive.
The top 2 tiers of food would start a buff effect that you'd have to reinforce with good food for a while, before it gave bonuses. These buffs would give your pc a set of resistance buffs (stronger willpower, better saves, better poison resist, and some extra HP/stun). It would shorten skill timers by a small margin, and it would shorten mastercraft timers.
The top tier of food would have a timer that gives a small possibility of stat growth in the three physical stats per year aged, to some middle age. It would also lower endurance stat loss as a pc ages, etc.
Only the wealthiest houses would have cook npcs at the middle tier of food. Nobles, aides, and templars would get an allotment tier 4 food per week or month, to keep them from selling from an unlimited supply.
All food would be given a spoilage timer. Cooking skill would be needed for tier 2-5 food, with rarer materials required as you went up the chain.
Some npcs would spawn with food items. The steal code would thus be enhanced by extension.
In conjunction with this, a tiered system of apartments would be put into place. Characters would have a command to set specific rooms as home rooms.
At the lowest tier, characters are living in the street, in the wilds, or similar. They have a penalty to stats, have a minor chance of disease and a minor chance of coded events like pickpocketing.
Again, at the two lowest tiers, a skill/timer penalty. Most of the apartments would fall into this area, on quality, not size. The Byn barracks would fall here. Established tent camps would fall here.
The middle tier, no penalty. These would have to be more expensive than current apartments. The GMH and noble house barracks would mostly fall here.
At the 2nd to highest tier and highest tier, a timed buff similar to the one described above. Only a few of the most expensive apartments, not necessarily the largest, fall into the 4th tier.
The overall effect is to codify social status, and provide a persistent set of economic drains.
GMH pcs, military clan sergeants or betters, aides, nobles, templars, and psions get a command that let them research or detect the combined tier of food + lodging ranks. Heck, maybe burglars too, as a branched skill.
The outcome of such a system is not only in the reinforcement of roles (beggars, dirty byn mercs vs well fed, kept and trained Tor reds, etc), but a step towards fixing the economic problems. Pcs that could provide food, provide coin, or attack other groups based on those points, become more interesting and valuable.
In example, if each noble can offer their servants (and hold over their head) tier 3 lodging and food, their employees will skill up better and have a performance advantage on the "rabble" when push comes to shove.
Thoughts?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 17:23:37 GMT -5
Seems a lot code heavy, and kind of ridiculous, tbh. It's not cheap food that makes you sick, it's rotten or poorly kept food. Similarly, you can have a very well built and nice looking place, but if the germs/conditions are right, you can get sick as a dog while in a palace. It makes no sense, it's unrealistic, and it seems like just another way to penalize people who play indies, casual players, and folks who don't farm for or wind up paid nearly unlimited amounts. Not a fan. Similarly, if one is suggesting food spoil for "realism", one should take into account all of what that means. Up to and including the fact that preserved meats (ala jerky) would actually be healthier for you, as well as keeping better and lasting longer, than many nonpreserved foods. And then there are foods that take years to spoil, if ever. Like honey. Honey never actually goes bad. Similarly, marilla sap should not. And if we're talking realism, let's take and allow people to make pemmican, mixing a lump of gurth fat, a pound of meat (or a chunk, really), and a few berries, into something that is as filling and nutritional as other foods that weigh 5 times as much. Yes, that's also an actual thing. (Link here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pemmican ) Like... I don't want to discourage realism in the game, but lets be real about what that actually IS or swing the pendulum back toward playability. Because realism that isn't actually realistic but instead is a series of arbitrary penalties designed to shoehorn people into certain roles is bullshit, and if I'm being frank, that's exactly what this looks like it would be. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 17:29:26 GMT -5
That's totally leaving alone the fact that eating jerky vs eating a steak isn't going to REALISTICALLY help you spar better or worse, it's eating protein in general that's helping build that muscle mass. Just like eating things with carotene will help with your eye health but just eating carrots shouldn't realistically make someone better at scanning, the list goes on. I mean, you can propose what you want. I wouldn't say it would actually encourage anything except people who wanted to minmax to do what makes their character buffest. The rest would just be more confused, and of course there's no way to explain that even though this guy went out and took down a scrab and has unlimited scrab steaks, he should work for Noble X because the noble's scrab steaks for some reason make you healthier and learn faster? How does that begin to make sense or even act as something anyone could touch upon IC without it blatantly winding up like sdescs do, as a shitty thing that the players are forced to work awkwardly around and usually do such a poor job veiling when communicating it IC that people bitch that it's code abuse.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 17:40:41 GMT -5
That's totally leaving alone the fact that eating jerky vs eating a steak isn't going to REALISTICALLY help you spar better or worse, it's eating protein in general that's helping build that muscle mass. Just like eating things with carotene will help with your eye health but just eating carrots shouldn't realistically make someone better at scanning, the list goes on. I mean, you can propose what you want. I wouldn't say it would actually encourage anything except people who wanted to minmax to do what makes their character buffest. The rest would just be more confused, and of course there's no way to explain that even though this guy went out and took down a scrab and has unlimited scrab steaks, he should work for Noble X because the noble's scrab steaks for some reason make you healthier and learn faster? How does that begin to make sense or even act as something anyone could touch upon IC without it blatantly winding up like sdescs do, as a shitty thing that the players are forced to work awkwardly around and usually do such a poor job veiling when communicating it IC that people bitch that it's code abuse. Granted. There almost has to be a layer of abstraction to get to playability. The bottom of the food or lodging tiers exist in a world without the FDA, where a big portion of the population are running scams, starving, or otherwise subverting the system. How would you rework the buffs and penalties to support an economic sink? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 18:37:09 GMT -5
I wouldn't. I don't want to sound like an asshole here, but the problem is that the economy itself is fucked to start. I don't think that giving people buffs and penalties is going to result in anything positive, and that it sounds like a massive amount of work. If you want a money sink, actually buy things regularly. It's really not difficult. Act like someone who's bad with money, and don't put it all in the bank and save it all. Bam, you're broke. It's really that simple.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 18:38:16 GMT -5
If you mean other things to spend money on, that's a shortcoming of things built to reflect what a disposable income IRL gets spent on. Namely: things which keep you entertained or make you feel more comfortable. Also, more things that get you fucked up/drunk/whatever.
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dcdc
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Post by dcdc on Jan 11, 2015 20:48:12 GMT -5
How would you rework the buffs and penalties to support an economic sink? The complexity of MMO economies. I think it fits loosely the subject matter. Since you can't use death as a economic sink for an RPI but Equipment needs to wear out, become less effective and break, requiring hard cold coin to maintain and replace. The more expensive your equipment the higher the value of maintenance. In my entire time of playing arm, I've never had replace equipment, except to "gear up". I've never geared down out finical necessity but always to enforce my own role play. The big problem with Arm's economy/poverty out look is the player base, almost 100% the player base. They meta game way too much, they associate their OOC desires/feelings/and ideas and get them mixed up with their characters. Coins don't have value because from an OOC perspective they don't. Once you get "geared up" it loses all its value, you want for not, you need not OOCLY. Why steal or beg? Risk losing your character when a few hours on the salt flats and your good for a month? I can see the purpose of enforcing poverty through code... but I think in the end it will only frustrate players, who rather go role play. Ultimately, from an IC perspective, unless your character is an idiot, from a tribe who doesn't understand value, your character wants money. Even if you've got the best gear, the best weapons, best apartment, and enough food to feed all of Allanak, ICly your character should still value money. Half a large to kill some fecker? HELL yes, I need money. 2 small to deliver this pack to Red storm? Feck ya count me in! Even if it seems silly, and from an OOC perspective your character didn't need the money, a player playing an RPI should have the maturity not the out rightly abuse the code and disregard the docs because they can't think past their meta-gaming state. Just my opinion. |
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Post by lulz on Jan 11, 2015 22:30:31 GMT -5
Too much work, sorry. Staffed by volunteers. They aren't paid. Reasons.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 23:58:04 GMT -5
I think the much more compelling reasons are that it adds nothing of substance but a bunch of awkward, unintuitive code designed to further shoehorn people, which is already complained about here, into roles that people decry not wanting to play because they are so restrictive, in order to... create a sink for coins that wouldn't exist if people would play realistically to start with. There are a lot of things that would add expenses and things of interest to the game, and would be intuitive in that it's how things actually work when you are in an impoverished setting/area, this is not one of them. But yeah, pretend that the real big reason is something no one's said but you, lulz. |
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Post by lulz on Jan 12, 2015 1:34:02 GMT -5
Do you think I exist solely to ride your admittedly copious derriere? If you thought I was referencing you in my post, then you're an idiot. If not, then well, fuck you anyways. Bye now!
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jan 12, 2015 1:41:43 GMT -5
I actually completely get what @banme is going for and like his approach. i was talkng about something wth a similar motive behind it in shadowchat a few days ago.
One of the problems you face in any RP game is getting people to stop treating their charactrs like a collection of stats and convenient likes/dislikes. And i mean ANY RP game. of course, this is impossible. People who rp properly dont need help doing it. And people who put advantage ahead of acting like a real person won't do it.
So the next best thing is to come up with a mthod of making what players should be doing also be what they want to do. Whether that want is out of dedication to ic or desire for advantages.
the approach i discussed was to have a stat related to your characters overall state of contntment. Sleeping in a good bed with comfortable surroundings, eatng good food on a regular basis, and so forth would raise this stat. Itd basically bundle "will to live" and "general well-being" and "stress level" all into one thing, which would be a modifier for tests of willpower or constitution. Someone with an untroubld mind is going to be harder to compel. Someone wth low stress and regular meals will shrug off illness bettr than some assclown living off travel cakes to save mony for silk and bling.
i didn't see @banme's poverty code as shoehorning people. Anyone who could afford to (or had the skll to) eat good food would have a coded incentive to do so. which is unfortunatly the push some people need to stop being so absurdly thrifty. I interprted the living condition as similar; people could designate what their home was and (as youd expect) you could only get a really good home though employment with someone big.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 2:34:42 GMT -5
Do you think I exist solely to ride your admittedly copious derriere? If you thought I was referencing you in my post, then you're an idiot. If not, then well, fuck you anyways. Bye now! No, I didn't think you were referencing me in particular, I thought you were being a snide and condescending prick (per the usual) and called you out on it. Feel free to resort to the same old tired ass name calling and clever one liners when not being sarcastic and adding nothing to the conversation as usual, though. It gives so much credence to the things you say. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 2:35:15 GMT -5
I will admit another motivator beside the economic.
I think that one of Arm's largest (non-people) failures is the dearth of places or resources to contest in the game. Short of pking anyone who tried to travel between cities, forage for the krathi ring components, or grind on hawks/stilt lizards/spiders...
If there were more objects of contention, players could more readily invent their own conflicts, driving story.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Jan 12, 2015 2:37:23 GMT -5
Realism is good. Just don't make it game breaking realism. I still would like to see the following things implemented on RPIs: Dynamic environments: IE: On Arm lets say you take your war-beetle thru the forest, it would then become: a vine-covered war-beetle, or maybe down south at the silt sea? It would be a silt-streaked war-beetle. These would eventually wear off and you could clean beetle to wipe the stuff off if you want. Coding in the environment has always been a cool idea to me. This idea has a lot of possibilities to go along with it. Crawl command: Come on let us crawl thru rooms with massive delays for 0 movement when we're out of mv points!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2015 2:46:56 GMT -5
I actually completely get what @banme is going for and like his approach. i was talkng about something wth a similar motive behind it in shadowchat a few days ago. One of the problems you face in any RP game is getting people to stop treating their charactrs like a collection of stats and convenient likes/dislikes. And i mean ANY RP game. of course, this is impossible. People who rp properly dont need help doing it. And people who put advantage ahead of acting like a real person won't do it. So the next best thing is to come up with a mthod of making what players should be doing also be what they want to do. Whether that want is out of dedication to ic or desire for advantages. the approach i discussed was to have a stat related to your characters overall state of contntment. Sleeping in a good bed with comfortable surroundings, eatng good food on a regular basis, and so forth would raise this stat. Itd basically bundle "will to live" and "general well-being" and "stress level" all into one thing, which would be a modifier for tests of willpower or constitution. Someone with an untroubld mind is going to be harder to compel. Someone wth low stress and regular meals will shrug off illness bettr than some assclown living off travel cakes to save mony for silk and bling. i didn't see @banme's poverty code as shoehorning people. Anyone who could afford to (or had the skll to) eat good food would have a coded incentive to do so. which is unfortunatly the push some people need to stop being so absurdly thrifty. I interprted the living condition as similar; people could designate what their home was and (as youd expect) you could only get a really good home though employment with someone big. While that system might work, and well, for a codebase that wasn't as old and disjointed as Arm's, there's so much crap going on there, and so many items already in game without that already, that it just seems like a ton of time and effort to sink into something that, as you yourself said, isn't going to really make people who see their pcs as nothing more than a bunch of stats will continue to do so, and will of course benefit from it, same as a million other tiny ways in the game (4 days grebbing salt with no emotes? well, they ARE a grebber!), and penalize the people who actually choose to roleplay properly, unless those people are choosing clanned roles only, and high ranking ones at that. TBH, I think that something like giving you the chance to lose a point or two of endurance for a week or two as a result of some sort of long term wear from eating stuff like moldy fruit makes sense, but giving buffs because the steak happened to be the 3000 coin version that is pretty much identical to the kind you can go out and hunt for free or buy on the cheap anyhow seems ridiculous. I'm not disagreeing with your general point about someone's state of contentment, but I do think that making it a coded stat in a real or meaningful (read realistic and intuitive) way is something which would be damn near impossible to code, just because people don't work like that over the short term, and over the long term, the effects are a lot more subtle and insidious than what code might account for, often manifesting in ways that have nothing to do with coded stats (as they currently are), like... depression, and chronic aches. These don't mean you'll heal more poorly or fight better, or learn at X or Y pace compared to the usual. Those things are determined by a thousand tiny variables from difference in mood and weather to how food was KEPT as opposed to a nebulous 'quality' descriptor, to whether or not you are mentally ill, to what sort of genetic and hereditary strengths or weaknesses are inherent to your family line, and more. If you have thousands of coins to throw around, it's not an accident. Your character is doing something that is resulting in that. If you want it to be different, change it. But to force the hands of others over it seems like it would have little to no positive outcome besides longterm players who are jaded enough to do it posting lists here of what food buffs or debuffs you for how long, or bitching that X clan has better/more food of Y tier than the other clan does. Call me cynical, but I just see this as something that will result in more people bitching about it and dissatisfied than something that would enrich or make the game enjoyable for others. |
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