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Secrets
Mar 15, 2014 17:37:32 GMT -5
Post by firekank on Mar 15, 2014 17:37:32 GMT -5
I can think of ten different players who have personally told me that they would rather be told that their plot will ultimately fail but allowed to pursue it to some degree and have it fail IN GAME for GAME WORLD reasons, rather than outright told no by staff... so much so that they have quit the game over it. The funny thing about assuming that the viewpoint you are putting forward is right is that I have never been told that what you are talking about makes them focus on 'achievable' plots, but that it makes it GIVE UP ON PURSUING PLOTS ALTOGETHER or even QUIT. Every single time I've spoken with someone about it. So I have to wonder if you have actually asked 'fellow players' about it, or if you are just -assuming- it because that is how you personally feel, firekank. If it's not too invasive of me to ask: -Is- it something that you are just assuming? @anaiah, It's a mix. I've talked to players who would rather be allowed to follow a doomed-to-fail plot, but there are also players who just want honesty. But you cant please everyone... right now staff will straight-up say a certain plot isnt possible, and piss off people who want to try anyway. If the staff just said to go ahead and give it a try, they piss off the people who want to succeed at their plots. the "problem" right now is that you have to work a long time to achieve anything, and even then you have to be on the uppercrust of society to be successful. I say "problem" because argueably this isnt a problem at all, it keeps commoners in their place. it might suck but thats how the world is supposed to work. on the flip side, even if you are in the uppercrust and you do all the required work, the return on your time is small. projects that you think should take months, take years. projects that you think should take years take decades. and so on. and there are like 5 PCs i can think of who have had characters last more than one year. so it looks like those players have staff favoritism or something when really, they just lived long enough to do something. the game of plots is rigged.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2014 21:24:18 GMT -5
I feel like I am not communicating myself clearly for some reason. I am talking about this, for example:
Player: I want to build a wagon, I have, X, Y, and Z resources and have done thing, thing, thing, and things, to secure what might be needed for it.
Staff: It's not going to happen. It's against policy.
(The above being what actually happens) vs
Player: I want to build a wagon, I have, X, Y, and Z resources and have done thing, thing, thing, and things, to secure what might be needed for it.
Staff: It's against policy to build a finished wagon object for you. We can take three different tacks with this: 1. Drop it and do something else. 2. It can be a virtual wagon (OOC note: This has actually happened for the Tan Muark dealing with Kurac), or 3. You can build the wagon, we may or may not write up some new items to represent 'progress', but it will never be codedly completed. How it is not codedly completed will depend on your character and the allies and/or enemies you have earned - if you manage to overcome these, you have a virtual wagon.
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I'm talking about telling them that the wagon itself won't happen but giving them in-game recourse and ways to continue the plot, even if it's just 'dump the completed parts in X room with an appropriate ldesc set and we'll save them to the room so they don't randomly disappear on a game crash', etc.
I felt the need to give comparative examples because to me, the first as opposed to the second response is the problem, and that is not arguable to me. The problems that other players I've talked to about these things over the course of years is not that staff isn't letting them have a wagon, it's that there is no roleplay, no REALISTIC OBSTACLE PLAYING OUT, it's a blunt, straight, hard-edged no. It is that the policy is 'players drive plots' and the reality is 'players only drive plots if we like the plots and want the world to go that way' because if they don't, there is not a 'helping you play things out to X or Y degree', there is a 'No, it wouldn't and won't be that way', which leaves people feeling stuck, helpless, thwarted, and frustrated.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here?
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t2thej
staff puppet account
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Secrets
Mar 15, 2014 23:41:41 GMT -5
Post by t2thej on Mar 15, 2014 23:41:41 GMT -5
You make sense to me, Anaiah. It's especially frustrating with this example because there are fucking wagons everywhere. There are crafts to make these parts along with the accompanying skill. This is also one of the examples of an incredibly obvious issue where even the gameworld backs up something characters want and -should- be able to do, but still hasn't been implemented. Not having known this whole deal about the wagons issue, I would have went bonkers trying to wrap my head around being denied something that's fucking everywhere.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Secrets
Mar 16, 2014 1:39:17 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 1:39:17 GMT -5
Alright, cool, I just felt like maybe before the example it was coming off that the issue was that things weren't getting implemented when the issue was, to me, that people aren't really even able to play things out with any assistance or great degree of coded backing (when we all use the 'if you don't like the code play a mush' argument is so prevalent), not that the players were getting told no. I don't think anyone who has a problem with being told no would play arm long enough to BECOME jaded.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Mar 31, 2014 1:08:38 GMT -5
So before I enrage you guys, I need to quote two things... The idea of putting wagons in the game like that and even letting pcs master wagonmaking as a skill but not letting wagons be made from it is irritating. You know that 3 years ago they were working on an automated wagonmaking ability that would result in a limited assortment of actually attackable wagons but they never even got the crafted parts finished written in the time I was on staff there? Work stopped because it used the same bit of code that Isatep or Qoriya (I can't recall which one) had on their chariot that kept screwing up? -THAT- would have been a great place to sink resources time wise, for a coder, IMO. Here's something fun to know. The wagonmaking skill got fleshed out by a player over a decade ago, back during the first time they had attackable wagon code in the game. Might have been 15 years ago. That's depressing. anyhow, the imms just never bothered to implement the recipes. Everyone who wanted wagons would have wagons? Bullshit. The fact that any merchant well-off enough to manufacture a wagon could do so was balanced out. Besides the fact your wagon could be destroyed by attacks? Errors/fails in piloting that would have sent you directions you couldn't go counted as crash damage. so buildable wagons also needed repairs. On tope of that you'd need somewhere to store all the stuff while building it. Plus building it wasn't exactly fast. And you still needed an imm to create the rooms in it. so even if you were spamming out wagons it'd be impossible to go unnoticed. The truth is the imms are 1) lazy as fuck and 2) obsessed with the notion that difficult travel means moar better. harshness and less lone wolfing is superior to activity from players making their own groups.
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drunkendwarf
Displaced Tuluki
SUCK IT, NYR AND ADHIRA
Posts: 211
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Post by drunkendwarf on Mar 31, 2014 11:57:44 GMT -5
I've said it before - they're more interested in forcing the world into their stagnate vision of what it needs to be than letting it evolve into what the players make of it.
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Secrets
Mar 31, 2014 12:08:57 GMT -5
Post by gloryhound on Mar 31, 2014 12:08:57 GMT -5
This would be super-cool. Plus code that handles total destruction (like falling off the Shield Wall) and installs a permanent wreck on the site. Imagine the desperate scramble to unload what remains of the cargo in hostile territory.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Secrets
Mar 31, 2014 14:51:31 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2014 14:51:31 GMT -5
Anyway, they're wagons, not flying machines. It's not as though the game would implode if suddenly there were half a dozen unclanned wagons around. Hell, might create a bit of fucking interaction and rivalry (fat chance).
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Post by jcarter on Mar 31, 2014 15:01:37 GMT -5
Anyway, they're wagons, not flying machines. It's not as though the game would implode if suddenly there were half a dozen unclanned wagons around. Hell, might create a bit of fucking interaction and rivalry (fat chance). we here at armageddon mud feel it is important that players not pester us and drive their own plots however we will not providing you tools beyond what has been in game for the last 15 years
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Post by tektolnes on Apr 1, 2014 8:28:28 GMT -5
we here at armageddon mud feel it is important that players not pester us and drive their own plots however we will not providing you tools beyond what has been in game for the last 15 years Also, we've added pooping beetle code. So now you can watch your beetle poop. Or not. You can totally turn this feature off too if you want.
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Post by Kanksalot on Apr 24, 2014 15:39:12 GMT -5
Hahaha Lolz... this entire conversation just makes me want to get some merchants and some burglars togeather and go steal ALL of the wagons and drive them off the shield wall so the imms are forced to let us build new wagons.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Secrets
Apr 24, 2014 17:43:01 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 17:43:01 GMT -5
Hahaha Lolz... this entire conversation just makes me want to get some merchants and some burglars togeather and go steal ALL of the wagons and drive them off the shield wall so the imms are forced to let us build new wagons. This may be one of the most awesome workarounds I have seen, ever.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Secrets
Apr 24, 2014 17:43:35 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2014 17:43:35 GMT -5
doublepost. nothing to see here.
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Secrets
Apr 24, 2014 22:51:48 GMT -5
Post by lyse on Apr 24, 2014 22:51:48 GMT -5
Hahaha Lolz... this entire conversation just makes me want to get some merchants and some burglars togeather and go steal ALL of the wagons and drive them off the shield wall so the imms are forced to let us build new wagons. Gone in 60 seconds the MUD?
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Post by BitterFlashback on Apr 24, 2014 23:28:27 GMT -5
Hahaha Lolz... this entire conversation just makes me want to get some merchants and some burglars togeather and go steal ALL of the wagons and drive them off the shield wall so the imms are forced to let us build new wagons. What's the worst that could happen if you piss off every (V)NPC with money and clout? And the lazy ass staffers who have to make wagonmaking work? Continuing in his reading from a scroll, voiced raised as he addresses the crowds of the Arena, the sinewy red-robed templar says, in sirhish: "... 14 counts of murder, 28 counts of burglary, 4 counts of heresy, and nearly a dozen counts of Grand Theft Argosy, for these crimes the accused shall fight in the arena until dead, then reanimated to fight until destroyed, and reanimated again and again, until Suk-Krath has gone dark and Zalanthas has gone to dust."
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