moontug
staff puppet account
Posts: 10
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Post by moontug on Dec 30, 2013 23:27:53 GMT -5
Hello, I was about to post this in a reply on my other thread but I thought I would ask here.
Who here has experience as staff on a MUD of any kind? Recently or some time ago? I know anaiah was recently on the Armageddon staff before her beer-addled outburst (just kidding anaiah), and Delerak has a vlog where he describes his experiences with some awful player who took things personally; maybe those topics can be touched on here.
A few questions I have:
How do you compare your experience on staff to being a player? Is it more fun or less fun? Did you ever feel excited to get home and 'staff' the way I felt excited to get home and 'play'?
Did you end up wishing you could erase your time as a staff member because it spoiled you to some of the game's hidden elements? (related: do you wish you could play Arm through the eyes of a newbie?)
How would you rate the coded systems in place for staff members? (I staffed once on a small MUD circa 2000 and I would argue we only had access to 'primitive' tools.) I imagine complicated tools for staffing might involve being able to assume different views of the game world (including an overhead map in a web browser) to better handle a larger player base. I wonder what the division of labor is in a huge MUD like Aardwolf.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 30, 2013 23:38:22 GMT -5
LOL Let's be fair, it was vodka and spiced rum.
My favorite 2 parts of being on staff had nothing to do with the request tool. I really enjoyed getting people's applications done as quickly as possible, and it was nothing to come back from a few hours absence and find 9 or so just waiting, that's why I had such a high resolution rate on those, and to animate/do echoes for people. I don't know if they are on these boards or not but Lizia the hooker from the Gaj, is an animation I did one night and she went off and deflowered one of IsFriday's pcs via a fade emote and changed ldescs in the Gaj's dormitories, or numerous people who were just dicking around outside where I'd start echoes about ants crawling around, the rustle of leaves, the way the light looked in the trees/etc.
I would have to say that it wasn't learning the game world secrets that disillusioned me, it was learning that yes, in all, staff is very biased in some ways, and learning about how little player opinions matter. And then knowing how little time and effort is actually necessary to implement something new, versus the mighty large amount of 'oh we're volunteers' entitled attitude toward taking any time to change anything for a player when they work on it. It makes me really really sad to see how few and far between meaningful player changes are that are affected, and I can honestly say, that in the year I was on staff, not a single pc managed to get any meaningful changes made which was not a sponsored role besides the almost RL year that the player of Bam had to take to get her beverage developed, when she was already a high ranking kuraci, master brewer, and had the supplies on hand the entire time. It just makes me sad as hell.
I think that if it weren't required for staff to go through such a bureaucratic set of hoops to get anything done on arm, it would be massively improved. In some muds, that sort of thing is not necessary (southlands, the mud I was building, another mud I nearly became staff for), and it massively speeds up and improves how smoothly things work and how much interaction can be had on a player level.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
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Post by Jeshin on Dec 31, 2013 1:04:10 GMT -5
I staffed on an RP (not RPI) mud for almost a decade. There is a key difference between being a staffer and being a player and it really can change your perception, RP, and even character choices on that MUD. It can even affect how you play and make concepts on all MUDs.
1) Staffers tend to peek behind the curtain. They know things about current plots, roles, etc etc. This allows them to be able to assess the needs of the game. Do we need more clan members here. Do we need an interesting plot there. Would a raider in this area promote RP more in line with the lore. As a player you can kind of see this overtime with experience but as a staffer you can become acutely aware of this. When I staffed I played a lot of teacher/mentor roles. I filled the spaces players seemed to avoid but were required for a healthy mud. I personally loved it.
2) No. I think being able to understand a MUD from a staffer level can make you a better player. However it is very easy for staff to begin resenting players. All staff kind of succumb to this overtime some more than others. You know things they don't. You know how things should be played. So when you see deviations for special snowflake syndrome you kind of go "Why can't this person play a role to docs. There's a lot of enjoyment there for them if they gave it a chance."
3) I staffed on a heavily modified SMAUG mud. I felt my tools were adequate as the where command gave you the vnum and room name and you could easily identify where people were. I could also go anywhere I needed too. Create items. Etc etc. Then again I was Head Storyteller so I had a bit more freedom than the junior storytellers. They had access to all the information tools and stuff but weren't allowed to create items willy nilly.
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moontug
staff puppet account
Posts: 10
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Post by moontug on Dec 31, 2013 14:54:48 GMT -5
anaiah, re: applications, I respect Arm a lot for that bit of quality control, especially given how many (wo)man hours must go into it (certainly it's on the order of years of labor). I'll be contentious and say I'm happy to hear it's a bit harder to change things on-the-fly than it used to be. But I do remember when players would rave (e.g. in reviews on topmudsites) about Arm being a world where players really do affect outcomes and the shape of the world, so maybe this is not the case anymore and it's a bad thing.
ambroise, were you staffing while you were playing Arm too? I did, and it made me want to make my little home mud a bit more like Arm, especially with regard to detail. I especially agree with your point that it's easy to begin resenting players -- I remember sometimes catching myself thinking the players needed to earn pleasant experiences by way of unpleasant experiences. I guess it's just our mentally compressed representation of the issue of "game balance" (be it of the mechanics or the roles).
Interesting responses, thanks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2014 0:33:27 GMT -5
It is really no longer the case, if you look at things, as posted above, with Bam a kuraci merchant for example. She was around 20 years as a Kuraci of game time, and years before that as a merchant who worked their way up to master brewing. And they had to spend a RL Year of their life, with a still and the damn plant to make her drink, in order to get 15 minutes worth of work done. It was the saddest thing. I can't think of any other place in the world that would say that that is acceptable.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2014 17:36:34 GMT -5
I was a storyteller, then imm, then head imm/builder for about three years on another mud. It was a MOO that had been built out to something that ran more like a typical Diku RPI.
I think staffing and playing is completely different as enjoyment experiences go. Most muds dont support creator playstyles very well. Most imm roles I've seen don't supply the endless stream of goals and victories achiever players like. I think this was part of the reason some of the best players I've seen try out for imm positions just fall flat on their faces.
I think Arm is mostly successful because so many roles are hard, so many goals take months of each attempt, and that the game information is kept unknown. I think that staffers (or people who rely on spoilers) are just cutting down the lifespan of the game giving them enjoyment.
My time as a staffer on that other mud has caused some of my bad attitude with Arm staff, and a few of my bad run ins. I've built areas, with new monsters and coded puzzles, in less than 20 hours. It took longer to roll out the idea in periodic rpts than to build it. Waiting months for a single rpt or for a mastercraft blows my mind.
One of my failures in that staff role was trying to fix everything I knew to be broken or poorly developed. I have to grudgingly admit that as much as I venomously dislike the approach most of the Arm staff takes, it keeps the imm staff from having to be beholden to anyone's expectations. Its a necessary defense, but I personally think they could accomplish it more often with the attitude Calavera brings to the table, rather than the one I've received from Nyr or Nessalin.
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ask
Clueless newb
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Post by ask on Jan 1, 2014 18:00:14 GMT -5
I've worked on 3 different MUDs, two were RPIs, one was a far cry from any sort of RP, though it claimed such. To me, being staff was an unusual experience. It definitely can "ruin" the game for you. I refuse(d) to play on any of the MUDs I had staffed on after realizing how corrupt, futile, and ridiculous things were staffside. My latest stint as staff on a game has really soured me to the whole idea. Everything event wise fell upon my shoulders. I was the only "imm" equivalent logging on to run plots, to create things for players, to oversee them, to award them, and to brighten their days. It sincerely has ruined me and sucked me down to the bones, and the marrow from them, in terms of even wanting to log on to *any* MUD and play any more. I thought that the RPI/DIKU muds were fun in terms of how you could control things. The last game I (am/was) imming at? It's Cold C, which is a dead fucking language from about 20 years ago that has no relevance in the coding world today. It is a dinosaur and hasn't been updated and was abandoned and used only for MUDs in the mid to late 90s. It has crazy customization, but you can't find any literature for it: I only am an "event" GM, so I don't code things and even if I wanted to learn a smattering of Cold C to get what I wanted done, it would take oodles of research... since like, no documentation exists on it any more.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2014 19:28:50 GMT -5
I used to be a staff member on an RPI about five years ago.
Being on staff was a huge eyeopener for me. I did enjoy playing the game more than being on staff although I consider them to be very different, like comparing apples and oranges. I did enjoy adding things to the game and giving the players that special something by bringing the world to life (doing animations, creating special objects or adding other things to the game that they wouldn't normally be there. Once a character had his buddy die and he was burying the body. As he dug the grave, on the fly I created a grave object for him to put the body into. They seemed to appreciate that. It was the little touches like that that I enjoyed doing the most.
The thing I regretted most about being on staff was that I never had any plots run for me or with me involved. I was always on the staff side doing them for the players. I don't think there was any rule restricting other staff from running plots for my characters, but it just never happened. I don't think think I'd feel right even if they did, that'd seem like favoritism or something.
I've got mixed feelings about being on staff spoiling the game's secrets. On one hand I'd have never have learned what I had without being on staff. It'd be virtually impossible to learn it all. On the other hand I didn't like knowing about current on going plots because I also played the game. It was very limiting for me to try to with hold what I knew, trying to make sure I didn't take advantage.
It would be nice if could erase my time as a staff member and play the game as a newbie again. I think that's where I got my greatest enjoyment, from discovering new and interesting secrets.
At the time the coded system was awkward and difficult, requiring only those with coding skills or machine access to do much of anything other than basic administrative tasks like answering email and building. As far as tools, the game seemed more geared towards the player side of things. They got all the neatest toys. The staff side was fairly spartan and antiquated with complicated commands, etc. I've heard there have been a lot of improvements with tools to make things easier since I left. That made me happy.
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moontug
staff puppet account
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Post by moontug on Jan 4, 2014 15:31:44 GMT -5
vorpalbunny/jenki - I think I agree with that (re: cutting down on the lifespan). Arm has some very cool coded mechanics that are really fun when you discover them for the first time. As a really simple example, my first MUD ever was a basic CircleMUD without hit locations, encumbrance, etc. So seeing specific locations getting hit (with tasteful, simple hit messages) was one of my early thrills. This made me realize you could buy armor specifically for those locations. But there was no way to tell what was the 'best' neckguard, so I had to read the descriptions, learn about things like encumbrance and (later on) aggressive 'rinth NPCs, etc. It was all very simple and easy to learn, but it had a lot of interesting depth. But if I had access to the code I'd know immediately and exactly what neckguard to buy, and purchasing it would be a chore not a puzzle. ask - "Cold C" was a scripting language? My only experience with scripting used something called DragonScript I think. I could find nothing on Cold C, and had never heard about it til now. Wild. Thanks for all the responses guys.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2014 21:30:15 GMT -5
ColdC was a programming language, similar to MOO. You can't find anything on it because you're putting a space between the Cold and the C. It's all one: ColdC like that. It is a derivative of C, used for object-oriented code (in particular, the mud known as ColdMUD which is where the name of the language came from).
There's a bit about it on Wikipedia.
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ask
Clueless newb
Posts: 137
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Post by ask on Jan 5, 2014 0:53:19 GMT -5
ColdC was a programming language, similar to MOO. You can't find anything on it because you're putting a space between the Cold and the C. It's all one: ColdC like that. It is a derivative of C, used for object-oriented code (in particular, the mud known as ColdMUD which is where the name of the language came from). There's a bit about it on Wikipedia. It doesn't help I'm also retarded and the only thing I know how to code is HTML/CSS from about 10 years ago.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2014 8:42:25 GMT -5
ColdC = a derivative of C. C = a programming language. Like Basic, or Fortran, Pascal, Assembly. Programming language: the "code" used to create programs. Example in old fashioned Basic: 10 print "Hello World"; 20 end; And when you type RUN in the computer buffer, the result is: In short: it's maths
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 8:27:47 GMT -5
I staffed on Shadows of Isildur for a while, just under a year. Mostly it served to open my eyes to just how little of a fuck the average player gives about portraying a realistic, believable character whenever they stand to benefit from doing the opposite. Naturally I wasn't oblivious to how bad people can get, but you really discover the extent of it when you're able to actively observe them while they think they're alone. The same has always been true of Armageddon where it's easier to discover due to the variety of ways even a mortal player can spy on other characters.
The difference between SoI and Arm, however, was that staff on Arm did pretty much nothing about it and almost never intervened when someone abused the game as long as it didn't affect any PCs who were liked by staff. On SoI, if someone did things like killing city NPCs for their loot or staying in one room for a week just spamming skills over and over to max them without ever roleplaying or interacting with anybody, they would get caught and dealt with. On Arm, you get away with this shit nine times out of ten. People would literally camp certain NPCs, like that dwarf in the Tuluk warrens with the nice armor or that elf in Undertuluk with the lockpick, to the point where their corpses were stacked several high. People - even in high-karma roles - will go around PKing everybody they encounter on the thinnest possible pretense of roleplay, and while staff might occasionally scoff at this or give a token wrist-slap, they essentially don't try to stop it.
This kind of thing creates an atmopshere within a game which, over the years, grows and becomes ingrained until it drags down the overall standards for roleplaying and fairness. When you don't hold people to any kind of standard, they'll get worse at whatever they're doing. As a result, Armageddon ended up with by far the worst average roleplaying quality of all the established RPIs. There's a core of very good and creative veterans, but the rest of the playerbase consists mostly of a horde of absolutely awful roleplayers and shameless twinks, and the game has become the platform of choice for people like Kronibas and X-D who have played for fucking ever and still roleplay so poorly that one thinks one has encountered a new player when interacting with them, yet are lauded as great players by Armageddon's sycophant community.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2014 15:15:46 GMT -5
Honestly? I don't think that X-D is a great roleplayer in the sense of 'lets represent everything and as realistically as possible', in fact, he had so many hide bonuses stacked in gear that I have actually heard jokes about him branching the 'goto' staff command finally, but that said, he drove a lot of fun storylines along that I was involved with and really, what my staff experience taught me is that there are not droves of players who are 'great roleplayers', and more of the ones who are actually do not have 'karma' in droves, but that regardless of whether or not they fit my definition of great roleplay, a lot of people fill different niches I didn't even appreciate previously with other strengths. Like the guy who plays Raleris... he is not exciting or captivating or even particularly interesting to watch... BUT: he involves a lot of other players, has stuck with his role for years, and regularly, clearly and concisely does his reports with a lot of attention to thoroughness and keeping staff informed, which makes him a good candidate for a leadership role from staff perspective. What is sad is that so many times, people have one of three major strong areas: communication (with staff), all-over-immersiveness (these people sadly RP alone most times, like an introvert, they have a rich inner life, but few people see it), or player-involving. The general hack-and-slash alone type... I only saw in maybe 10-15 people in a year of monitoring, but I was saddened to see how few people hit on category two of the three there.
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moontug
staff puppet account
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Post by moontug on Jan 17, 2014 13:58:26 GMT -5
re: oldtwink, my experiences are definitely outdated, but around 1998-2000 when I was playing (and not really getting the roleplay thing), I was playing in the 'rinth a lot and it felt like this kind of behavior was being cracked down on a lot. but it occurred to me that maybe it was the other players who were doing a lot of the policing -- not so much the staff.if you started killing the NPCs, picking locks where you might be seen, etc. you were liable to have a couple Guild PCs rain down vigilante justice on you for disrupting 'order'. I assume they had the blessings of the staff, and it kind of just "worked" to keep the 'rinth a place where everyone knew where s/he stood.
contrast this with when they came out with crafting (2007 maybe?) and people sat in taverns spam crafting. there's no way to spin "vigilante" justice in this case, so players lost the ability to really police each other IC for abusing the game, and all we could really resort to was complaining on the irc channel.
I can't comment on the current situation or those other players you mentioned, but they sound like the kind of players that really annoyed me because they flaunted my standards for good play.
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