baron
Clueless newb
Posts: 119
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Post by baron on Oct 22, 2024 19:36:51 GMT -5
To beat the dead horse:
OOC knowledge has been spread around since before a sizeable percentage of Arm players were even out of diapers. There's no way to stop it. It was always stupid to try. It's an eternal frustration, a tension that was never going to go away so long as the broken philosophy of "Find out IC" persisted. Especially after "Find Out IC" became a cloak for staffers and players to abuse others, and that shady shit came to public light, the idea of secrecy should have been razed to the ground.
The game should have shifted to embracing open communication and building a shared narrative. That would have also reduced the burden on staff, so they'd no longer have to be the OOC police, and they could more openly ask for help with particular narratives, and gauge interest in plotlines before putting work into them, and enlist the playerbase in policing themselves and their own behaviors.
The dank secrets of "so-and-sos magical journey" were never worth the bullshit. Honestly, I think half that crap was secret just so the more general playerbase wouldn't feel left out when the cool kids got their special magical unicorn plots advanced.
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Post by Azerbanjani on Oct 22, 2024 19:45:26 GMT -5
I would say nowadays, somehow even with the discord groups, it seems info was being spread less than when it was the AIM days. I think with a group it almost guilts people into not saying too much.
Just my two sid though.
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
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Member is Online
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 22, 2024 19:55:07 GMT -5
I wish I could post that GIF of Michael Jackson eating popcorn. Is there any plan to release the source code so people can play with it in the future? Nothing's been said officially since the recent news, but the staff have historically been extremely against releasing the source code, so if they do release the source it would be quite the change of heart.
If a spinoff game is run more or less the same way as Armageddon, with the same players as Armageddon, it will run into the same issues as Armageddon. See: Apocalypse.
(I have no dissertation about Apoc I swear)
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alleys
Clueless newb
Posts: 87
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Post by alleys on Oct 22, 2024 20:27:35 GMT -5
- Of course cyberbullying is real and -very- harmful (And Earth is not flat as well). I guess most of us here are 30+, 40+ years old and there wasn't much social media in our teenage years, so it is hard for us to comprehend the effect. Armageddon Mud is or was so immersive, and like all RP games(online or tabletop) it attracts some people more susceptible to certain communication problems. This forum shows it pretty well. Current most active users are obbsessive about a 1990s game only a few hundred people on the planet play in a level that it is hard to explain to ordinary people. I dare you to try to explain the years long drama to your friends. Hehe.
- After saying these, I think this forum needed more moderation in last years. Not for the game, but for the people's mental health. I am not sure how one could do it properly, but there are some people whom looks like they really have serious problems and this online board doesn't seem to be helping at all. It's not like mIRC or Aol. This is a community. Ah, one can argue Discord Servers are worse, to that I can't say anything. I have never tried to organize an online community made up older, rather smart and people obsessive about something trivial as a 30+ years old game.
- Anyone whom organized some volunteer work knows how hard it's to work in such groups. You always face some harmful people in the staff. Organization needs to come up with insitutations to check itself, audit itself and improve the management. I have no doubt, ARM faced it as well in it's -very- long run. Considering the game and how it didn't get new blood and energy for years, I have no doubt managing got harder and most importantly not fun at all. Community and staff came up with some audit groups in itself at the end maybe a bit later then it should be. In any case, what player community could do was pinpointing those evil-doers and help the staff to help the game.
- As there happen to be evil-doers in staff, there are always more of them in the playerbase. (I can tell personal stories about refugee help groups in Turkey. How it was hard to deliver some food because some those refugee was beating others to get theirs. Or trying to prevent some god damn volunteer staff to sell food rather then giving them away freely as they should be.) Even some those players may leave, staff remains. So, it's always better to be staying positive or simply leave the community.
- Saying some members of current staff was the one creating problems before means... very little. I think for all of long time players, there were times in their life they were simply behaving like idiots. This forum is full of such logs. There are sins that can't be forgiven and they shouldn't be, but simply saying "that staff behaved like this in 2005 or even 2015" means.. Heh.. I probably can't stand the man I was in 2005 as well. As I said, there are some limits to understanding, but really.. (In an online Yale course about US civil war. I remember Professor talking on an assigment: Find five articles supporting slavery written by Lincoln)
- Lastly, I believe every person should fight for justice. Justice in every corner of our lives. But, I prefer to spend my mental capability and limited time on planet more to fight justice for human rights, fighting against poverty, gender equality, online bullying and harrasing then some piece of online equipment or staff attention in a game from 90s.
At the end, best and simplest argument for the staff is.. "It is not fun at all and we are leaving." I am really sorry for that. Ah, rather then personal hobbies like knitting, I have a large RP community to hang around with. I'll be running more events, I trully hope you all can continue your storytelling hobby. Even the worst of us are creative people.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Jeshin on Oct 22, 2024 20:37:05 GMT -5
I think the most disappointing thing about Shenzi's post is the comments about bullying and its affect on the staff team. Like Dave Chapelle said "a brittle spirit". After moving on from Armageddon decade+ ago went on to other RP communities some similiar in scale some much bigger and continued my own tabletop sessions with different systems. I think RP is interesting and creativity is health and I find it generally true that small groups and large groups mirror each other very closely because it's just people being imperfect at communal storytelling. Not like we go to school for this shit right?
Anyway Armageddon isn't special and it never has been. The problems Armageddon have aren't unique the apologists aren't unique the people playing just because of their friends aren't unique and the staff being the problem are not unique. It's the same song and dance in MUSHes/MUs/Forums/FiveM (GTAV RP)/RedM (Red Dead Redemption 2 RP)/GaryMods/etc etc. You know what else isn't unique? Disgruntled players and let me tell you what the bigger the entity the more disgruntled especially when people can spend $$$ on the thing. So Armageddon MUD got closed because of critical posts and someone on stuff was leaking (like has happened time immemorial for this game). Super. Try getting doxxed and having pizzas hilariously called to your house and having to tip the driver because you feel bad for the 30 something year old doing gig economy to make ends meet and it's not his fault a bunch of upset people ordered pizzas to "hurt me". Try having yourself signed up for escort websites and find husband websites and what personal information does exist about you on the internet entered into all those survey things so a couple of angry users trying to be all uppity they got banned for cheating can make some pennies and get your older forms of contact spammed.
You volunteer to be a leader (staff member) of any community you pretty much open yourself up to criticism and not all of it is fair. But like I said you can't get bullied on the internet, just stop reading it. You have someone come who read it and is all hurt about it tell them to buck up and lets do something productive or wild idea (if you have receipts and apparently did) just fucking respond with transparency. Crazy I know but when all the doxxing nonsense was happening members of the staff team didn't cry and hide they just did their thing and released some information to the playerbase. It's not rocket science. Even "bullies" and critics have empathy and those that don't end up looking like lunatics no one wants to engage with. Amazing what some transparency and talking to people can do instead of just blaming blaming blaming. The posts from my2sids and shenzi probably humanized and gave better insight into the staff view of seasons than all the speculation and official announcements this year. If you'd just done it sooner and officially you probably would have quashed your drama.
Brittle Spirits.
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dcdc
Shartist
Posts: 539
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Post by dcdc on Oct 22, 2024 20:41:12 GMT -5
Look at this fucking shadowboarder, acting all high and mighty, accusing the cheaters of ruining the game People did this in IRC People did this in AIM messages People did this in Mumble and TeamSpeak servers The Shadowboards and by extension the Discord were just making all the inside info available to the plebians at slightly larger scale. The only real sour grapes was everyone could get in on the cut now, and not just the cool kids. For a bunch of fucking MUD/LARP nerds, shit was real cliquey. For years people held inside/code knowledge, use to their advantage (For years) while posting on the GDB "it's all about the role play baby" (for years). And only got upset when the same advantages were available to anyone willing to google "Armageddon Mud".
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 22, 2024 20:42:11 GMT -5
Look at this fucking shadowboarder, acting all high and mighty, accusing the cheaters of ruining the game Since the rumor is starting to go around in the various backchannels, I must admit something to all of you. I was Halaster all along. It's why our opinions on the playerbase have always aligned so closely.
I know this will break qwerty's heart, since he thought I was Nergal, but no... I cannot claim to be the same man on the poster on the ceiling above qwerty's bed...
The evidence being shared amongst the cheaterbase can be summarized as follows: We both hate cheaters.
I joined the shadowboard when I was no longer on staff, because I was bitter about not having the karma to play a sorcerer or psionicist.
Halaster and I are both nerds, hence the focus on player numbers. We both played EVE Online at around the same time, before CCP ruined everything.
It's sad that I have to get in front of these rumors before they do more damage to my stellar reputation in the Armageddon community, but I felt the need to get this off my chest before I ride off into the sunset.
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Post by Azerbanjani on Oct 22, 2024 20:54:09 GMT -5
I'm going to spread this info as truth
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,689
Member is Online
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 22, 2024 20:55:08 GMT -5
I'm going to spread this info as truth Please do. Because it is.
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Post by pinkerdlu on Oct 22, 2024 22:00:25 GMT -5
I started Arm when I was 13, and I just kept coming back to it. Despite the abuse, despite the creepshows, despite the active antagonism of my wife, despite the awful way staff treated her, despite the sex scandals and abuse of the players, code, and other staffs. I tentatively came back after almost every apology, time having sanded down the rough edges of the pain. *snip* Fuck all of you rich scumbags (you have no idea you're rich, getting high of pretending to scrounge for food in the dirt or dying of fucking illnesses that it seems like only magick could damned cure), and your ignorant, immoral, callous blinders. Are you also a rich scumbag? Or are you typing this from a homeless encampment while your wife plays MUDs and gets virtually dicked down and cumsplattered by every sponsored role and dashing rinthi rogue? Either way, join the blackpilled masses man. Life is tough. Just know that I'm the real terrorist, and you're the faceless spectator getting cucked. We are not the same. *the shadowboard freedom fighter gives you a sideways grin and winks* - Of course cyberbullying is real and -very- harmful (And Earth is not flat as well). *snip* BLAAAAGH. STFU boomer. I was Halaster all along. Fine... then I get to be Shalooonsh.
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Post by poorimpulsecontrol on Oct 22, 2024 22:09:58 GMT -5
Rich scumbags rant is golden. This spiral is really popping things off.
Sorry we didn't fail at achieving minimal prosperity, despite all the time utterly wasted pretending to be magick desert dwarves. Sucks to suck, peasant.
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baron
Clueless newb
Posts: 119
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Post by baron on Oct 22, 2024 22:15:25 GMT -5
It's funny how the people on this board (myself excluded) were nicer back in the halycon days before it was the GDB.
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hates2
staff puppet account
Posts: 42
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Post by hates2 on Oct 22, 2024 22:30:52 GMT -5
Overall, Seasons was actually kinda awesome, we met nearly all of our ambitious goals. The staffing team was the strongest it’s ever been: collaborative, creative and refreshingly free of the internal strife that plagued past teams. Moderators were effective and the community spaces were much improved: some of our harshest critics even began to express genuine appreciation. Communal game areas were bustling, player plots were flourishing and we received an outpouring of feedback from players telling us this was the most fun they'd ever had in Armageddon. Our planned meta-plot was full of promise and excitement. Yes, there were obstacles; nothing is flawless. But we were ready to face those challenges and work through it. What we weren't prepared to work through was this community’s constant barrage of hatred. Your goal was to drop back to the same player numbers they were a year ago when you closed?
Your community spaces were improved? You can't even post this stuff there now, the censorship prevented most discourse from taking place. Mehtastic said you all ignored him, him posting on the gdb wouldn't have worked. Every staff group ever has said "we're better than the previous, we'd handle things differently". We've seen otherwise, you needed to accept that and make the change.
You and IsFriday come here now when you could have come here at any point during seasons to correct anything. You chose not to. You can hide behind staff contracts or whatever trash red tape arm mud staff loves to wrap themselves up with to prevent meaningful progress and cause yourselves to trip over your own devices but choices were made. At the end of the day, the game failed for the same reasons it was failing.
Preventing OOC collusion and trying to "hide the plot" is an outdated model. You never had a chance with it, but you chose to maintain it. Instead, open all the plot and encourage people who want to play together to play together. Show them playing together and having fun playing together, that makes people want to play. IsFriday says a lot was happening, when people see it's not it's because your dumb ass curtain is blocking the view.
I don't feel like rehashing the numerous fixes so many people have said would help. We know you already read them, did your own thing, and lost.
You both are trashing on previous staff and how you're so much better, you lasted like 6 months. I admit, you got dealt a bad hand with most of your good players gone and not coming back. Still, it seems arrogant to act so superior to the past when you failed to steward the game.
I, personally, would have engaged with the people here. Yes, there are bad apples but being free to constantly show receipts on things would have went a long way in building community trust and bringing a new culture to the game.
I honestly don't mean to sound harsh, I probably played alongside you both and enjoyed your characters. But I was never going to come back with the game the way it was.
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najdorf
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 265
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Post by najdorf on Oct 22, 2024 23:36:25 GMT -5
Look at this fucking shadowboarder, acting all high and mighty, accusing the cheaters of ruining the game Halaster, I doubt anyone questions your loyalty, love and devotion to the game. But those things do not equal to success. This is not how the market runs. I bet you being a worker class dude will never understand it. Just deep inside, you should acknowledge that it was your incompetency that ran the game downhill.
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bebop
Clueless newb
Posts: 131
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Post by bebop on Oct 23, 2024 0:25:31 GMT -5
Usiku coming in to paint the last three staff members as bullied victims? Mind blown. Here comes Armageddon’s own version of the Dead Three fighting for control of the elderbrain, as the chaos spills from the shadow realm into the real world—completely bonkers. Especially when you consider that Usiku mocked my mental health in the same way she suggests this board needs to shut down because it’s "old and weird." The cognitive dissonance? Off the charts. Saying “BULLYING ISN’T HARMLESS” in one breath and then questioning someone’s sanity for reporting harassment in the next? Classic “do as I say, not as I do.”
I didn’t bother reading that whole diatribe, but it's amusing to hear her talk about how hard she worked as a "volunteer" during the game's lowest point. Like, maybe take some accountability for why it was at its lowest point? Spoiler: it was due to harassment and cheating by multiple staff members that Halaster allowed to run wild.
Blaming these boards is just… sad. It’s another pathetic display of failed leadership. Real leaders own their mistakes, not point fingers and hop into the first lifeboat. From that screenshot, it almost looks like Halaster was trying to take some responsibility. Then along comes Usiku.
Armageddon’s a sinking ship because it sheltered cheaters, abusers, and lied to its player base for years—despite being repeatedly shown evidence of wrongdoing. Someone shouting pause and showing you a crack in the carbon hull? That's what's called a fail-safe. That was the cue to handle an endemic problem. Instead, the staff ignored and actively hid those fail-safes, and now the game has unsurprisingly failed. It has imploded like a submersible at the bow of an ancient shipwreck.
Let's not forget, Halaster was actively posting on the GDB that no staff members occupied sponsored roles, while Shalooonsh occupied a sponsored role for like two real life years with metal and magickal powers. A fail safe isn't even needed for that. You know you're not telling the truth. How the hell is that the Shadowboards fault?
The problem isn’t these boards; it’s the staff’s inaction, indifference, and cheating. Newsflash: if nothing shady was happening, there’d be nothing to report here or anywhere. It’s giving “I’m not sorry it happened, I’m just sorry the staff keeps getting caught.” Too little, too late. Blaming the boards? Total lack of accountability. I don’t know if Usiku was even on staff when the original harassment happened, but she sure jumped in, inserted herself, and kept on touting the staff that earned this scrutiny as the victims. Gotta question the logic of someone who does that, especially at this point.
One thing Usiku did get right—it’s the opposite of fun. Which they might’ve considered when stepping into a leadership role in a community that was burning to the ground because it was protecting men in their 30s who dated teenage girls, stalked, harassed, and abused players of all genders for over a decade. Not having fun? Shocker. Most of us are here on these boards because we weren't having fun either. In a game. We played for fun.
It wasn’t fun to experience that. It wasn’t fun to have staff like Usiku question my sanity to push a narrative that the game’s culture was magically cured because protecting a hobby was more important than protecting humans. And now here she is, ranting on these boards, just like the rest of us. Funny how that works out. Even now, she can’t accept that it's not fun because the staff made it not fun by ignoring all those fail-safes. Instead, people like Usiku keep blaming the players who refuse to silently accept terrible treatment and being booted from a community that they were part of for years, all so the staff can keep their little ant farm.
We wanted to have fun in a community we spent countless hours on. We wanted to feel safe. It didn't work out that way because the staff ignored every red flag and outright report.
Now, the remaining three are even hinting that Armageddon might come back—if they can root out just one more problematic staff member. WILD. And beyond toxic. Somehow, they still don’t see how they’re perpetuating the problem, even as the whole thing crumbles around them. I’ve said I’d (mostly?) withhold judgment of anyone who went back to the game, but at this point—seriously, why?
The remaining staff still have a chance to end things with some grace, but instead, they’re closing it (again) in the same way they ran it: without finality, transparency, honesty, or leadership. Just more shouting, threats, code-gatekeeping, and finger-pointing into the void. And now that they’ve shut down their own game? Here come the staff, flooding the very boards they blame for its downfall. You honestly can’t make this stuff up.
There’s no goodwill left to plumb or trust to mine from the shrunken player base and the tiny inner circle of remaining staff.
For old times’ sake, I’d love to hear from IsFriday—was there ever any discussion about mending fences with whistleblowers like me? It doesn’t matter now, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disturbed that the go-to move to ban a whistleblower, then spin a narrative that the game was "healing" while excluding people like me who were directly impacted by harassment, bullying (to borrow the phrase) and cheating.
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