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Post by pinkerdlu on Oct 26, 2024 19:02:57 GMT -5
I'm sure my post will be picked apart and the usual suspects here will shit on me like they do every other staffer. tbh i think you're reasonably safe, considering your post was sharing your experience and had more substance than "you are all a bunch of wrong and bad terrorists and should feel bad and should just stop existing here frick you" venting >I'm old and need to spend more time with my nagging family >I'm old and spending 2 hours a day glancing at requests made me tired >I'm old and posted about my inane experience instead of reading the thread >I'm old and don't hold any grudges despite being banned and staff pixel tracking me What a magnificent experience they shared. I hope I die young and beautiful; in heaven, away from the boomers. Regardless, I do understand the feeling of joining staff and immediately having all of my eagerness, hope and excitement dashed away in the passing of a couple days. The few players that are interesting and that you're happy to watch/help/interact with are vastly outnumbered by the sheer blanket of apathy, grinding/twinking/mudsex/ooc collaboration, and goobers trying to steal away your time. The workload isn't insane; most staffers make it harder for themselves or aren't meant to be in creative or player-facing roles in the first place. The request system and their style of bureaucratic staffing makes the whole process worse. The average MUSH is a better example of how things could be handled, corruption aside.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,512
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Post by Jeshin on Oct 26, 2024 19:07:37 GMT -5
tbh i think you're reasonably safe, considering your post was sharing your experience and had more substance than "you are all a bunch of wrong and bad terrorists and should feel bad and should just stop existing here frick you" venting >I'm old and need to spend more time with my nagging family >I'm old and spending 2 hours a day glancing at requests made me tired >I'm old and posted about my inane experience instead of reading the thread >I'm old and don't hold any grudges despite being banned and staff pixel tracking me What a magnificent experience they shared. I hope I die young and beautiful; in heaven, away from the boomers. I'm old =( stop bullying old people.
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Post by gringoose on Oct 26, 2024 19:08:01 GMT -5
It's not the animations that overwhelms them. It's the endless resolving of requests.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Oct 26, 2024 19:50:02 GMT -5
tbh i think you're reasonably safe, considering your post was sharing your experience and had more substance than "you are all a bunch of wrong and bad terrorists and should feel bad and should just stop existing here frick you" venting >I'm old and need to spend more time with my nagging family >I'm old and spending 2 hours a day glancing at requests made me tired >I'm old and posted about my inane experience instead of reading the thread >I'm old and don't hold any grudges despite being banned and staff pixel tracking me What a magnificent experience they shared. I hope I die young and beautiful; in heaven, away from the boomers. Regardless, I do understand the feeling of joining staff and immediately having all of my eagerness, hope and excitement dashed away in the passing of a couple days. The few players that are interesting and that you're happy to watch/help/interact with are vastly outnumbered by the sheer blanket of apathy, grinding/twinking/mudsex/ooc collaboration, and goobers trying to steal away your time. The workload isn't insane; most staffers make it harder for themselves or aren't meant to be in creative or player-facing roles in the first place. The request system and their style of bureaucratic staffing makes the whole process worse. The average MUSH is a better example of how things could be handled, corruption aside. i really did almost write out "i think you're reasonably safe unless pinkerdlu shows up" lmao
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Post by generality on Oct 26, 2024 20:12:19 GMT -5
I think they're right though. Most Arm people just want to skin scrab and sneak out to the water cave to fill their skins or play shitty grebber simulator or make modest skill gains regularly.
And then you have the less good ones who want to rule every IC clique ever and will use OOC means to do so.
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Patuk
Shartist
Posts: 552
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Post by Patuk on Oct 26, 2024 20:26:28 GMT -5
>I'm old and need to spend more time with my nagging family >I'm old and spending 2 hours a day glancing at requests made me tired >I'm old and posted about my inane experience instead of reading the thread >I'm old and don't hold any grudges despite being banned and staff pixel tracking me What a magnificent experience they shared. I hope I die young and beautiful; in heaven, away from the boomers. Regardless, I do understand the feeling of joining staff and immediately having all of my eagerness, hope and excitement dashed away in the passing of a couple days. The few players that are interesting and that you're happy to watch/help/interact with are vastly outnumbered by the sheer blanket of apathy, grinding/twinking/mudsex/ooc collaboration, and goobers trying to steal away your time. The workload isn't insane; most staffers make it harder for themselves or aren't meant to be in creative or player-facing roles in the first place. The request system and their style of bureaucratic staffing makes the whole process worse. The average MUSH is a better example of how things could be handled, corruption aside. i really did almost write out "i think you're reasonably safe unless pinkerdlu shows up" lmao Should be among the forum headers tbh
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bebop
Clueless newb
Posts: 131
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Post by bebop on Oct 26, 2024 22:45:21 GMT -5
Is no one going to point out how even Arms own staffers can't use their own public communication channels to communicate (ie their own boards) so they're literally coming here to communicate on an unaffiliated channel? Usiku literally has sway in keeping the actual Arm boards open and is opting to speak here instead.
Make it make sense. You could literally just hash things out publicly and openly with your own community instead of moderatoring them into the dirt.
As for Ammut's perspective on staffing the game, that sounds hellish and serves as another example that the game has gone to live well beyond a reasonable lifespan. With technology improving over time, logic would dictate it should've gotten easier, not more difficult. Again, the staff don't see that they are the arbiters of their own frustrations. Creating a convoluted karma system, costing players real-life years of their lives to advance in the game, stoking the fires of unhealthy playing levels, commitment from staff, and addiction to the point of neglecting and forsaking real life? That didn't have to be baked in alongside the predators. The devs are responsible for fixing that. Ya'll get that right?
These are all attributes of the game that the stewards of it (not the players) had the ability to streamline and make more efficient. Yet, at every turn, they opted for more and more bloated bureaucracy. You took all of that into consideration and then created the most long-winded, convoluted karma system the game had ever seen.
Why are staff like Ammut and Usiku STILL lamenting the fate of the staff specifically? Are you guys all trauma-bonded from sipping and serving the escapism/addiction purple drink? (Look up sipping syrup non-Americans.) Ironically, it sounds like YOU also need a support group and are coming here to vent for reasons similar to those of the players. But, as is often pointed out - you are volunteers. You are doing this willingly, and unlike the players you are in a position to impact the very red tape and workload you lament - yet you insist on retaining and increasing it.
Even in the thread closing the game it's like I'm so sorry, staff! Stay strong, staff! You guys are doing this to yourselves. Is there any level of accountability staff are willing to take?
Part of developing and running a game is fostering a healthy community, having good communication, streamlining processes, etc. It seems staff are constantly conflating being busy with being good staff members even as they're coming here to complain about the implosion of their personal relationships and lives at the hands of the game. This is ... disturbing to read.
If the game makes everyone this unhappy at every level - why does it still exist?! Am I taking crazy pills? What is the point?
Staff keep saying ya'll are just hating to hate. I don't think that means what you think it means. From where I'm sitting this game has turned into a destructive force that has very real negative impacts on people's lives from staff to player. Anyone advocating for the continuation of this game at this point (to me) just looks like an addict rationalizing their behavior. Genuinely. I feel like I'm talking to a friend begging them to break up with their abusive boyfriend, trying to remind them that just because the sex is alright and there were good times, ninety percent of it is drama and abuse.
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Post by eukelade on Oct 26, 2024 23:36:48 GMT -5
An interesting thing about MUDs is they have really poor efficiency in their backend tooling. Both because they are so old and also because they are still a full game experience being maintained by comparatively few people. This works because it's in text and so the threshold to learn how to work with and manipulate things is relatively low. You don't need to be able to run Unreal or Unity on your computer to do QA, you don't need access to large DBs of images or renders. You don't need an art team or complex programming or a product manager or a sales department.
But another interesting thing about MUDs is that text game assets are still game assets and each one is going to take X amount of time to think of, create, manage, and deploy. Images or not, the designer workflow is similar and the time it takes to bring things from ideation to reality is also similar.
I am sure there is a way to modernize and make the process/workflow on a MUD more efficient, but in my opinion there is a limit to how much modern tooling would actually help here. You still need to do just about everything a normal game designer needs to do to make the world run, with the addition of being customer service agents and improv actors/writers. I actually do not think most staff members are being inefficient with their time or energy. They're just trying to do something that requires the resources of a full time job, because it was set up to require that, because it was created by unattached young people who had 40+ hours a week of free time. Nobody left on staff (or even in the game, I'm sure) has that anymore. Everyone is an adult and those 40+ hours a week are spoken for.
Yes, Armageddon has a terrible infrastructure with bad tools, and while I've heard the red tape has improved a lot that's still a factor as well. But it's also an online game with a playerbase, and that's going to take the time it takes. Which is a lot, if you want to do it thoroughly/well. It's very impractical, but it is also very interesting! MUDs are a part of internet and gaming history I will always be fascinated by!
I don't mind Armageddon closing that much. It makes sense that such a strange project would go out in such an utterly harebrained way. I am a little sad that the many things I wrote for the game will no longer be out there, contributing in whatever small way to stories I'll never hear told by strangers I'll never meet.
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,689
Member is Online
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 27, 2024 5:58:48 GMT -5
Is no one going to point out how even Arms own staffers can't use their own public communication channels to communicate (ie their own boards) so they're literally coming here to communicate on an unaffiliated channel? Usiku literally has sway in keeping the actual Arm boards open and is opting to speak here instead. Make it make sense. You could literally just hash things out publicly and openly with your own community instead of moderatoring them into the dirt. As for Ammut's perspective on staffing the game, that sounds hellish and serves as another example that the game has gone to live well beyond a reasonable lifespan. With technology improving over time, logic would dictate it should've gotten easier, not more difficult. Again, the staff don't see that they are the arbiters of their own frustrations. Creating a convoluted karma system, costing players real-life years of their lives to advance in the game, stoking the fires of unhealthy playing levels, commitment from staff, and addiction to the point of neglecting and forsaking real life? That didn't have to be baked in alongside the predators. The devs are responsible for fixing that. Ya'll get that right? These are all attributes of the game that the stewards of it (not the players) had the ability to streamline and make more efficient. Yet, at every turn, they opted for more and more bloated bureaucracy. You took all of that into consideration and then created the most long-winded, convoluted karma system the game had ever seen. Why are staff like Ammut and Usiku STILL lamenting the fate of the staff specifically? Are you guys all trauma-bonded from sipping and serving the escapism/addiction purple drink? (Look up sipping syrup non-Americans.) Ironically, it sounds like YOU also need a support group and are coming here to vent for reasons similar to those of the players. But, as is often pointed out - you are volunteers. You are doing this willingly, and unlike the players you are in a position to impact the very red tape and workload you lament - yet you insist on retaining and increasing it. Even in the thread closing the game it's like I'm so sorry, staff! Stay strong, staff! You guys are doing this to yourselves. Is there any level of accountability staff are willing to take? Part of developing and running a game is fostering a healthy community, having good communication, streamlining processes, etc. It seems staff are constantly conflating being busy with being good staff members even as they're coming here to complain about the implosion of their personal relationships and lives at the hands of the game. This is ... disturbing to read. If the game makes everyone this unhappy at every level - why does it still exist?! Am I taking crazy pills? What is the point? Staff keep saying ya'll are just hating to hate. I don't think that means what you think it means. From where I'm sitting this game has turned into a destructive force that has very real negative impacts on people's lives from staff to player. Anyone advocating for the continuation of this game at this point (to me) just looks like an addict rationalizing their behavior. Genuinely. I feel like I'm talking to a friend begging them to break up with their abusive boyfriend, trying to remind them that just because the sex is alright and there were good times, ninety percent of it is drama and abuse. Let's say the producers are genuinely concerned about staff and player privacy, from the start of season one going forward. They genuinely believe that the game must close due to the possibility of a staff leak, because otherwise, the steady drip-drip-drip of information will continue. The producers can no longer guarantee the previous level of "confidentiality" which was actually that this information was shared privately among OOC cliques, but never got into the open until Mean Old Mehtastic somehow slipped into a few of the cliques and started reporting on what they were discussing.
The overall position of the shadowboard seems to be: yes, the game should close, actually. This was long overdue.
The overall position of the main community seems to be: NO YOU CANT TAKE MY GAME STOP IT BRING IT BACK I NEED ARMAGEDDON GIVE IT TO ME GIVE IT TO ME NOW.
The staff cares (or claims to care) about player safety -- the playerbase can't even be bothered to pretend that this is an issue. Regardless of the authenticity of the staff's concern, that is a huge disconnect. The players just being like, yeah I don't actually care if the personal/plot information of this other player is discussed, just bring back the game, shows the staff the kind of player they were serving all along.
The shadowboard is a less hostile, more honest place for player-staff discussion than the main community is because we are not invested in its future. Despite all the digs about us not having anything to do once the game closes for good, the work is already done. We've documented the tire fire, its length, and its effects on the environment. There's never been much left to do besides wait for it to burn out.
At this point, the staff have claimed to have screenshots of the people in some of the clique servers. They know that many of the people that were saying "pffft I've never been in a clique!" on day one of the closure were actually lying for clout. The staff cannot trust their own playerbase, so why bother with GDB or Discord discussions?
And that's the other reason for staff to post here instead of the main place: we're a more palatable target for attack. We're a collective whipping boy for cheating, dishonest players. The mods have no-bashing rules to enforce, which they've since loosened up on. (Of all the staff that have actually talked in Discord since the close, only Halaster has avoided bashing shadowboarders and asked others to not bash us.) There are no rules here besides not breaking the ProBoards TOS, so the staff can come here and bash as much as they want.
It's too bad the staff still don't admit to seeing that their trusted players have ruined the game, but I suspect some of that talk will come on Tuesday, if they choose to present their findings in a more structured manner.
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Post by generality on Oct 27, 2024 7:06:01 GMT -5
The talk among the remaining staff that nobody will see? The feedback on Discord that nobody will take on board? That communication?
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,689
Member is Online
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 27, 2024 7:41:07 GMT -5
What feedback? It's been players whining to the staff about just bringing the game back up, and telling the producers to fire all of the storytellers.
The staff will post on Tuesday. At this point they have to, if only to tell players that the game is completely and permanently dead. Or to frame a staff member for the leaks and proudly announced the mystery has been solved.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 386
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Post by jesantu on Oct 27, 2024 8:45:33 GMT -5
I don't believe Arm necessarily needs to close. I believe an entirely new set of hands needs to take over. It's like North Korea. Kim Jong Un can't show up and say you know what I wanna run my country differently from now on, I'm gonna be kind and considerate and not disappear entire families into a gulag if they disagree with me. Of course no one would believe him just like the existing staff can't claim they're going to stop being obnoxious knobs who support abusive nerd tyrants and pedophile Shalooonshbags. You had your chance, you did the community wrong, it's time to step down. If North Korea was toppled and an entirely new government rose and took over, then it could (legitimately) continue. In the same vein, if Arm was run by a 100% entirely new group of people, it could legitimately continue. But since it can't/won't do that, my opinion is fine just shut it down. Not because of leaks, because of you!
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Post by catacost on Oct 27, 2024 9:49:39 GMT -5
This mehtastic guy really paints things in black and white and to the extremes. He can continue to toss around his view of course but I hope I’m not the only one rolling his eyes every time he makes such definitive claims.
To the casual reader, this “shadow board” sounds sinister and diametrically opposed to the main player base but it’s really just a haven for the disgruntled. Who all have reasons to raise their annoyances and concerns. They are definitely not unified or capable of any semblance of an “attack” on the main community or the game as far as I can tell. It’s like 4 daily posters talking in circles.
The main discord, at least as of last week, had pitched a number of ideas to help resolve some of Arm’s fundamental design flaws that contributed to its most recent downfall. Unsurprisingly, 200+ people do not have the same point of view and the community is far less an echo chamber than this one.
Some people are probably really sad and maybe even to an unhealthy level that their pastime is in danger of never returning, but definitely not at the scale this guy implies 😆
From an observers perspective this community seems more focused on retribution and the official community on resolution. That’s not to say there aren’t some actually aggrieved individuals here who deserve closure at a minimum, but it is the dominate focus of this board and largely attached to year or decades old scenarios.
Readers: Just bear in mind this is an unofficial forum with a micro-community rallying around angst.
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Post by generality on Oct 27, 2024 9:58:59 GMT -5
A micro community with more freedom, more discussion and more activity than the GDB right now.
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ask
Clueless newb
Posts: 128
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Post by ask on Oct 27, 2024 10:01:26 GMT -5
It's not the animations that overwhelms them. It's the endless resolving of requests. The only staff animation I ever received in my last play was from pinkerdlu, funny enough. I think maybe Gynesis did one, but she did NOT understand Tuluk enough to get the nuance of my needs. Staff wouldn't have endless fucking requests if they showed an interest or led their players. They don't though. The fact of the matter is that staff, when they become staff, decide that that's it. They've made it. They've got theirs. They can do what they like and act out against those they despise. euke always had a great attitude, as did oryx. I tried to follow euke's mantra especially: no denigrating players on immchat. It becomes a festering wound. Everyone up there talks so much shit about PCs, when PCs are the lifeblood of the game. It's just insane to me how much hate there was from the top down. Anyway, there's a reason I had 10 people over my 12ish limit trying to get into my clan, which is why clan caps had to be reinstated. It's because I animated for an hour, daily, or popped in when I saw someone in my clan bored or alone and sparred with them with my NPC. My players' needs came before my wants. It isn't hard to make the gameworld come alive. It isn't hard to build 20+ rooms on the fly and run a seasonal event like Nergal and the GMH team did. The fact of the matter is is that staff treat getting onto staff like some fucking Eleusinian mystery rite and then never do shit else besides bitch about requests and hate on the players that they were mere months or years ago. Get over yourselves. You're the DM for your clan. If you can't manage to entertain your players for a few hours a week, you've failed at your task. Move on. Or close the game, I guess.
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