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Post by alicatsam on Mar 4, 2023 15:47:52 GMT -5
Feeling free from the thought 'maybe if Shalooonsh wasn't staff' by him not being staff and the maybe being a definitive no let me speak my piece, and it was extremely cathartic and gave me a good feeling.
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Post by jcarter on Mar 4, 2023 15:54:14 GMT -5
some people watch the kardashian's. some people watch ru paul's dragrace. i watch armageddon drama. So far though since I've been poking around this corner of the internet again I've been saying a lot of really critical things on the discord and all the staff people I have spoken to have been receptive. I told Brokkr in front of the whole general channel he's the reason I don't play anymore and hated everything he ever did with me and all he did was apologize profusely a bunch of times. i've seen the cycle over and over again, and posted about it over and over again. this was posted 4 years ago-- i genuinely don't get how there's supposed to be any trust or credibility when the following cycle has been going on for twenty years: *asshole old staffer a gets kicked off* players: staffer a sucked, he screwed us over, why should we trust you guys? staffer b: we're different, we're moving in a positive direction, we don't do shit like that anymore. *staffer b voluntarily leaves staff after years of player complaints and doing things they said never happened* you get two types of players left over-- the in-denial abused wife: he said he's gonna change, it's different this time and the new girlfriend: things weren't that bad, all his ex's just made it up or were asking for it and if it does happen i deserved it. there's probably a strong argument for it. if you're being re-traumatized by this, please don't read the boards. i really mean that, and not in a 'fuck-off' kind of way but in a do what's best for you way. there will still be people here who will want accountability and view posted stories. although if you or other people want it removed, PM me and we can discuss specifics. you can also not visit the forums anymore and just ask a trusted friend to ping you if there's something which really deserves your attention. on the other hand, i think there's strong support here for many players that felt victimized and then gaslit, othered, and/or told it was their fault too bad so sad. it's up to posters to decide how to feel, and i hope they choose whichever outcome is the healthiest for them.
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,034
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Post by punished ppurg on Mar 4, 2023 15:54:29 GMT -5
So far though since I've been poking around this corner of the internet again I've been saying a lot of really critical things on the discord and all the staff people I have spoken to have been receptive. I told Brokkr in front of the whole general channel he's the reason I don't play anymore and hated everything he ever did with me and all he did was apologize profusely a bunch of times. The only reason you're able to do this is because of your community clout and the backlash that would come from chasing away another oldbie. Don't think that it's some sort of new paradigm that all of the burned in Armageddon would be able to benefit from. The only reason why you weren't immediately shut down, chased out, banned, told to never come back (like dozens of others have been when they've raised less), is because of the new firestorm it would create. Make no mistake!
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Post by eukelade on Mar 4, 2023 16:10:50 GMT -5
So far though since I've been poking around this corner of the internet again I've been saying a lot of really critical things on the discord and all the staff people I have spoken to have been receptive. I told Brokkr in front of the whole general channel he's the reason I don't play anymore and hated everything he ever did with me and all he did was apologize profusely a bunch of times. The only reason you're able to do this is because of your community clout and the backlash that would come from chasing away another oldbie. Don't think that it's some sort of new paradigm that all of the burned in Armageddon would be able to benefit from. The only reason why you weren't immediately shut down, chased out, banned, told to never come back (like dozens of others have been when they've raised less), is because of the new firestorm it would create. Make no mistake! I am not sure what clout I have exactly considering I am not even playing right now and haven't for years, but yeah, I see your point there. Everyone should be able to be honest and direct about their issues. Not just "popular" people.
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Post by eukelade on Mar 4, 2023 16:16:04 GMT -5
if you're being re-traumatized by this, please don't read the boards. i really mean that, and not in a 'fuck-off' kind of way but in a do what's best for you way. there will still be people here who will want accountability and view posted stories. although if you or other people want it removed, PM me and we can discuss specifics. you can also not visit the forums anymore and just ask a trusted friend to ping you if there's something which really deserves your attention. on the other hand, i think there's strong support here for many players that felt victimized and then gaslit, othered, and/or told it was their fault too bad so sad. it's up to posters to decide how to feel, and i hope they choose whichever outcome is the healthiest for them. this is good advice, I can take myself offline as needed of course. I'm real frustrated about so much stuff I'm learning. but for now I have also been enjoying the memories catching up with old friends and reading old logs. (and yes, agreed, there is a cycle.)
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Post by kalandolmas on Mar 4, 2023 16:20:06 GMT -5
I am not sure what clout I have exactly considering I am not even playing right now and haven't for years, but yeah, I see your point there. Everyone should be able to be honest and direct about their issues. Not just "popular" people. I'm not gonna lie, I was pretty 'popular' for being a new player (i only managed to squeak out a year and a half of play) and still got the axe as soon as I did something that staff decided they didn't like. I spent that entire time promoting staff, talking about how thankful I was that they were--as a whole--so kind and amicable towards me, and thought that 'hey, maybe they like me because I'm doing good.' I had a false conception that I was liked because I was cool, and fun to be around, when in reality they liked me because I blindly advocated for them. As soon as I had the gall to speak up about my experience in the game and join the call-outs of staff misconduct, I was allotted one (1) day before Halaster banned me from the GDB, the Discord, and the game itself permanently. Then, after I was banned, I put in a request stating that maybe in the future I'd love to come back to the game, assuming significant reconciliation has gone on between staff and the playerbase, to which Halaster gave me a very odd response of "I hope to see you again some day, you will be missed." I'm going to be missed? Huh, I didn't get that impression when you permabanned me, friend. Then, I hear from someone else that another staffer mentioned I could appeal my ban and I'd probably see it revoked, but why would I want to do that anyway? If I came back to the game, I could kiss the karma I worked for goodbye, I could wave to any sponsored roles I might want to get, because staff no longer like me, and no longer favorite me. I physically cringe when I think about how much I kissed staff's boots under the idea that it'd get me further in the game. It was actually really pathetic, and it's no wonder I was called a staff pet by so much of the playerbase--because I WAS. I let it happen, and now that I'm not longer playing that part, I'm no longer wanted in the game by the staff at large.
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Post by Barsook on Mar 4, 2023 16:20:58 GMT -5
It's always will be as no one wants to make the change. That's why cycles happen. Duh.
Unplugging yourself from all of this the best change since you won't be caught into the cycle. It's a game anyways, there are better ones to play without getting traumatized over them.
Reading the old stuff will pull you in.
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bebop
Clueless newb
Posts: 106
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Post by bebop on Mar 4, 2023 16:51:59 GMT -5
It will literally take close to a year to see the initial rewards cultural shifts, and that is once everything on the action plan has been implemented. I just do not know if they are ready to stick it out. this is accurate and this is my thought too. It will be a slog. I would be happy to step in and at least talk about some kind of consulting/auditing help for this if they ask, but I am afraid to directly offer that kind of thing (also again so much work??? and bebop's stories all leave a bitter taste in my mouth and make me wonder if it is even ethical of me to consider that.) My memory is a lot of easily insulted people who you can't say anything negative to/about without dreadful consequences to yourself/your character. So far though since I've been poking around this corner of the internet again I've been saying a lot of really critical things on the discord and all the staff people I have spoken to have been receptive. I told Brokkr in front of the whole general channel he's the reason I don't play anymore and hated everything he ever did with me and all he did was apologize profusely a bunch of times. idk man this is a weird place to be in. i wonder if we're all just collectively re-traumatizing each other by continuing to discuss the endeavor. Obviously, your post was perfect. It was measured and informed because well ...this is your JOB. One thing I'll say is your analysis is already the type of thing I've seen multiple companies pay good money to receive. Were you to act as a consultant you deserve to be compensated for your time and expertise and obviously this game doesn't have any direct income to support an employee, consultant or freelancer. I wonder also, without a guide/consultant (or even with) how staff would implement a healthy form of action? I don't believe that in their current iteration they're capable of doing that. Again, they just picked a whole new round of staff in a very volatile time. The way they manage their time is telling. They have not apologized to or unbanned the whistleblowers, yet they're taking on new staff even as players struggle with present staffing. There aren't even enough regular players at this point to need several new staffers. There continues to be a disconnect as to where staff should focus their energy. They are taking on more water, while not yet mending the sinking ship. Their processes continue to be self-harming. While your advice is excellent, I have to wonder how we could possibly expect them to implement such a culture in the short-term, much less the long term. Especially when there are still transphobic staff like Hestia that would no doubt detract from good works such as these. It was SO much work to get the most minimal accountability for a single staff member with a history of abuse. What about Katima's favoritism? What about Hestia's bigotry, meanness and propensity for mindless authoritarianism? What about Shabago's tendency to work alongside and shield Shalooonsh for years? And what about the rest of the staff who knew of the staff avatar in question manhandling the entire game as a noble, sorcerer with a special title? What about those that said ... eh? This is fine then police toned everyone around them hurting? What about those staff members that Halaster felt imperative to remind us thought that absolutely nothing was wrong? As for your question about trauma - the short answer for me about whether we're just shifting trauma around is - Yes, I think we are continuing to cycle trauma around! Absolutely. Staff are human beings too and there is absolutely no way they can truly process this situation in under a week. They are still in a reactive state where they're just trying to keep the game afloat. Staff moderate. backtrack and continue to mask their actions by forcing a highly modulated dialogue on their turf and their terms. There just seems to be a general lack of cohesion and many very reactive based movements. There's a lot of dissonance and staff have maintained bans, punishments and restrictions on people already abused. Through all of these stories coming to light, every day players are piecing more of the puzzle together as to how complex and deep the cheating and favoritism were. If you break up with someone you need a long time to decompress from treating that person like a lover. Staff cannot have the entire player-staff trust dynamic break down and go back to business as usual in days. Yet here we are welcoming on more staff. There is also that ingrained us VS them mentality where trying to out cheating and abuse seems like a personal attack. I personally have no desire to attack people on a deeply personal level. I brought up some things that happened "IRL" because they were relevant to the situation. As for me, and others would probably agree, they don't want staff to grovel. They just want basic empathy, understanding and for staff to do better. Why are staff pushing back against this basic ask? They're in a catch-22. By shutting down the game for several weeks they might lose the game entirely. But if they don't shut down the game, detox and seriously consider next steps, they're not going to truly be ale to pivot into a different style of culture or understanding about what occurred here. You can not actively be in a situation and reflecting on a situation with hindsight at the same time. It is a very valid question to say - has this gone too far? And I think the answer is that just might be the case. Where do we stand? What is the point? Where is the remorse? This went on for so long in so many iterations of staff and effected so many players and characters. Many have come to these boards to share their stories and screenshots of exactly how "productive" making a complaint was for them. Even more have messaged about their personal experiences over the past week. It's alarming. Many of these players went through the proper channels. Many of these players tried to advocate for themselves and were shut down. The speed in which this occurred had all of the moment of a snail. It was easily plucked off its trajectory, but staff refused to dig out the slug. Instead of making things completely right and THEN figuring out how or even if they should take on new staff we're just seeing a bunch of old staff members returning in the middle of a complete meltdown. If a nuclear reactor melts down you don't throw a bunch of bodies at it. There are plugs, rods etc built in to contain the meltdown, THEN fix it. Instead, of addressing this issue head on before taking any major actions I'm very uncomfortable with the fact more staff have just been throw into the fire. I don't know what it says about all of these old staff members coming back. It looks like a bit of nepotism and more of the same when players are demanding something new. It once again, seems tone deaf. Am I mad? No. I get wanting to do anything to fix it and make the hurt stop. But this isn't how to go about it. As Benjamin Franklin said, "Do not mistake motion for action." Staff - stop moving Stop adding new staff. Stop trying to act like this is business as usual. Accept there was massive cheating and that many of you were complacent and potentially even participants. Players are waiting for you to be upfront about this. Accept that one of your staff members abused players and the complaints were ignored for a DECADE. Accept that the trust is irrevocably broken. Stop building the game. Stop carrying on like normal. Let players know the game isn't going to be staffed normally right now. Stop business as usual. And don't do anything else until you contain the problem before you ala the nuclear reactor analogy. Heaping more staff in and doing these piecemeal reactions is not sufficient. There is so much documentation out there as to how to make public amends with a community including what a member of your own community provided to you. Forbes 3 Steps for a Public ApologyPublic Apology - 9 Ways for a Brand to Say SorryI think the above is what gets me the most. You cannot say I'm sorry and still ban and retaliate against whistleblowers. It's like a brand poisoning people and then apologizing to those people but then suing the people who were poisoned for damages. Where is the actual empathy for the players that were cheated, who lost their characters and who continued to be harassed by a member of staff for years? It doesn't mean these people hate you, it does mean they're hurt and deserve an apology. Instead you added insult to injury by shoving them away when they came to you.
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Post by Azerbanjani on Mar 4, 2023 17:49:42 GMT -5
I saw something I don't know where to post about but another part of staff that makes me feel it's disingenuous:
Hestia's BS on the GDB
They posted quite clearly a 'If you aren't coming back don't post feedback!' on the forums. Then someone goes 'You know, their feedback might be important'. Hestia then goes 'Oh uh that was just for THAT thread if they wanted to post feedback there's no rule that says they can't in a different thread!'
It's possibly the most disingenuous thing I've seen out of the whole situation. Advertising 'We don't want your feedback if you aren't SERIOUS about our game!' and then acting like 'Oh uh that was just that one thread tee hee' is stupid as hell.
Staff: We know players might be distrustful of us... If you know that and that trust is broken you should be ACTIVE. VERY ACTIVE. In attempting to rebuild that trust. Not counting on people YOU HAVE SPURNED and likely BANNED to create a separate thread that goes 'Here's my feedback'. Trash.
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Post by eukelade on Mar 4, 2023 18:34:43 GMT -5
I can tell they're trying to do something lol, even if it isn't happening very cleanly.
someone suggested somewhere that all current staff should be let go and then rehiring take places under a new, collectively determined policy. I liked that idea a lot. Shutting the game down is also a good idea if they are serious about a major culture change or fundamental restructuring.
I am not sure why they wouldn't do that to be honest. They are not going to hemorrhage money by doing so like another live multiplayer game would, because they don't make any money, and the people loyal to their product would be willing to wait and work with them.
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
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Post by mehtastic on Mar 4, 2023 18:37:52 GMT -5
I can tell they're trying to do something lol, even if it isn't happening very cleanly. someone suggested somewhere that all current staff should be let go and then rehiring take places under a new, collectively determined policy. I liked that idea a lot. Shutting the game down is also a good idea if they are serious about a major culture change or fundamental restructuring. I am not sure why they wouldn't do that to be honest. They are not going to hemorrhage money by doing so like another live multiplayer game would, because they don't make any money, and the people loyal to their product would be willing to wait and work with them. I would guess they are worried that if they close, a large number of players will go find better things to do and not come back. And they're probably right. But I'm sure most players would actually be patient. It usually is the staff that struggles with patience, in the history of Arm.
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bebop
Clueless newb
Posts: 106
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Post by bebop on Mar 4, 2023 18:58:18 GMT -5
I can tell they're trying to do something lol, even if it isn't happening very cleanly. someone suggested somewhere that all current staff should be let go and then rehiring take places under a new, collectively determined policy. I liked that idea a lot. Shutting the game down is also a good idea if they are serious about a major culture change or fundamental restructuring. I am not sure why they wouldn't do that to be honest. They are not going to hemorrhage money by doing so like another live multiplayer game would, because they don't make any money, and the people loyal to their product would be willing to wait and work with them. I would guess they are worried that if they close, a large number of players will go find better things to do and not come back. And they're probably right. But I'm sure most players would actually be patient. It usually is the staff that struggles with patience, in the history of Arm.
This. I've thought about it today and honestly? I think players WOULD come back. Especially if it was a healthier dynamic and things got right OOC before the game reopened. Treating ARM like a drug that people can't get a chance to disconnect from is not healthy. If there are players sticking around only because their addicted and want to mainline escapism, that shouldn't be encouraged anyway. If the game closed for awhile and people returned, it would should everyone is capable of a break and positive change. Like Laura said, they're not going to lose money. They just have to be willing to put proper boundaries in place to allow a new infrastructure to be built and some healing to take place.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 339
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Post by jesantu on Mar 4, 2023 23:09:38 GMT -5
as delirium said, gave them a full on blue print of what needs to be done. There is no blueprint for "don't be a dick". You either get it or you don't. Bringing qwerty back ices the cake of this whole fiasco and makes this entire thing a parody of itself. This entire story all unravels like a brilliant Shakespearen comedy. Looked at from that angle, it's a masterpiece!
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Post by paladont on Mar 5, 2023 0:11:17 GMT -5
Halaster's apology (or is it staff's apology? The producer's apology?) has improved with his latest post. That said, it's still abysmally poor: the quality I might find sufficient for a ten year old or troubled teenager. It's an attempt. This isn't the quality of an apology that is made by a team of people over the course of days.
It's a confused apology for making a poor apology.
The positives: 1) He was almost able to mention something he did wrong. 2) He finally provided the reason for the first apology. 3) It no longer uses the passive voice ("various rules were broken"
The negatives: 4) It doesn't say what he's apologizing for. ("I had been planning to let Shalooonsh go from staff for a little while now."). It's not clear if he's apologizing for not canning him sooner or if this is preamble to the excuse in the rest of the sentence. I'm now confused as to what happened a few weeks ago ("over the course of a few weeks I was talking to Shabago (and later Brokkr) about it"). Talking to them about what, exactly? What happened a few weeks ago that made you plan to let Shalooonish go? Was there some other "pervasive rudeness towards players"? 5) It switches from 1st person singular to 1st person plural. Is this an apology from him ("I misstepped") or from the staff ("Getting that consensus..which is why THIS response is slow in coming")? It discredits itself from believability that it required consensus to write but was written in first person singular. 6) It is filled with a number of excuses. This doesn't belong in an apology. 7) No understanding or remorse expressed for harm done in either first apology post or this one. 8) There are still glaring flaws with the initial apology, unacknowledged.
Most adults I know at least KNOW how to apologize if they screw up, even if they are an ass and don't want to. I thought Halaster was an old guy. I know he claims it, but has there been any confirmation he's not a troubled high schooler? (edit: No, this isn't a question i want an answer to. He very likely is what he says he is, but if I didn't know better, I wouldn't be able to tell from this series of apologies and excuses.)
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delirium
Clueless newb
grumpy cat
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Post by delirium on Mar 5, 2023 0:11:27 GMT -5
. This entire story all unravels like a brilliant Shakespearen comedy. Looked at from that angle, it's a masterpiece! can we go with tragic comedy? Or dark comedy? It's like one baby step forward (the apology, though it didn't address apologies for not believing us about Blaze's behavior, just that they were aware of the "allegations"), but then big step back by piling on returning staff who have proved of questionable at best behavior. Not all are bad actors but even one returning to the fold after the Blaze debacle just makes me Big Fucking Sigh.
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