mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,328
|
Post by mehtastic on Mar 2, 2023 5:26:32 GMT -5
Halaster posted an announcement, "Recent Events", to say as little as possible about recent events while still appearing to address them.
And with that, the unofficial Armageddon MUD discussion board has opened the floor to those who want to provide feedback on changes to the game.
Since discussion is not allowed in the above thread, with the absurd one post per person rule, here's a good place to have discussion.
I don't really have anything to highlight at this time. A lot of the suggestions are good. A few are dogshit (mostly the ones pertaining to expanding the staff bureaucracy, like adding new moderators). Just changing the staff load without addressing actual community problems is a bad idea, because it will just mean more people are burned out.
Staff need to actually address the question of why a lot of the players who join staff and rise through the ranks are complete hobgoblins. What it is about staffing that attracts the kind of loser that Shalooonsh clearly was? Answer that and I think you figure out how to fix staff.
|
|
|
Post by Azerbanjani on Mar 2, 2023 6:04:26 GMT -5
I don't know the specifics, ex staffers have mentioned it before and I'm sure can explain it better, but I want to say a good deal of the issue is that despite staff being in charge of certain areas of the game they seem to get way too free reign to just not give a shit.
I get 'Unpaid volunteers' and what not, but I've moderated for several different games. From minecraft servers, to Space Station 13 servers.
You know what stays consistent?
People are supposed to be doing shit. If a moderator isn't responding to admin helps or running the game, they get booted.
I see a lot of ex-staffers discuss how people just don't pull their weight. It seems people are just getting staff, doing the bare minimum (The undefined bare minimum, which is worse) and using their staffer authority to just do whatever shits and giggles stuff they want to.
Edit: Why I view this as being a big issue.
Do you know what I would do on SS13, and what other moderators would do, when 'bored' or not having anything to do?
Usually, start chaos. All that power, bored, wanting to 'have fun'. Thankfully most of the time the players were having fun too, because by virtue of causing chaos SS13 was meant to be chaos. People had fun when the station was on fire. Usually. I'm sure some people didn't like that, but the server I helped moderate wasn't a 'serious RP' server.
I think there also may be an issue just with Armageddon in general in terms of theme and scope.
If you go and read the 2e Dark Sun books, I picked up a physical modern-print on demand for less than 30 bucks you should get one if you are at any point interested in the setting, there's a pretty heavy theme. The theme is: Things suck. Things suck pretty bad. Despite that, you're expected and it's implied you rise above the suck. The setting wasn't 'The world is shit, the gods are dead, you're also a huge piece of shit slaver'. You usually, for better or worse, wound up actually being enslaved and fighting against the odds. It was a huge under dog story and this is demonstrated in the novels as well.
What is Armageddon? Armageddon is the very same game. Everyone said 'I like the setting'. But somewhere during the translation things got weird? Instead of going "Wow, this setting sucks to live in. Let's fight against it" people said "Wow that sounds terrible. I want to perpetuate how terrible it is".
Of course everyone who wants to play in that isn't necessarily a psychopath, I find it interesting to play a mundane character in that sort of setting, but I legitimately think that some people missed the point of the setting and decided 'Wow that's terrible. I wish I was in charge of this so I could be terrible to people as well' and that's madness to me. I legitimately can't tell if when staff animated a Templar to show the brutality of the setting that they aren't doing it because in some part of their brain they enjoy the social dynamic, not the world.
This isn't to fault Armageddon, Armageddon would need to be an entirely different game to properly demonstrate a 'fight against the system' sort of playstyle, but it could have a different tone to it. Will it? Nah.
|
|
mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,328
|
Post by mehtastic on Mar 2, 2023 7:30:01 GMT -5
This is quite possibly the stupidest post in the thread so far. What kind of idiot walks into all of this and says that it's universally the players' fault? Yeah, some of them are complete morons but the staff are actually in charge of the game. All the players need to do is stop blaming the victim. Staff need to stop creating victims.
|
|
|
Post by lechuck on Mar 2, 2023 7:38:59 GMT -5
That's the kind of fawning, dishonest crap you get in a game where people stand to benefit directly from being liked by staff. Some idiot wants another point of karma and has decided that no statement is too disgusting, moronic and demonstrably incorrect in pursuit of that. Nobody who has the intellectual capacity to play a MUD in this day and age can genuinely believe that everything about the game and its staff is perfect, and the problems are all caused exclusively by toxic players. But he's enough of a trash human being to pretend he thinks so if it might get him some of that staff goodwill.
|
|
migrant
staff puppet account
Posts: 22
|
Post by migrant on Mar 2, 2023 8:34:37 GMT -5
I really dislike the authoritarian fashion of how they're limiting feedback so heavily on the situation, and this after they banned most of the people speaking out. It doesn't restore any of my trust at all. They banned a bunch of people from the discord including me during a very civil conversation just because they were I guess feeling stressed out over it. The reaction is just very unprofessional and defensive. It's just sad.
|
|
delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,656
|
Post by delerak on Mar 2, 2023 8:35:15 GMT -5
My offer stands to become the savior of arm. I love you all. Come to me and be saved. You must humble yourself to become exalted. The truth shall set you free
|
|
|
Post by poorimpulsecontrol on Mar 2, 2023 10:09:47 GMT -5
Staff has never been anything but kind to me in their official capacity. For more than 20 years I made my dumb jokes, ran around the imaginary desert, and had a grand old time. It was worth it.
Some people are shitty. Those people can corrupt an otherwise good thing. I avoided digging into the drama and allegations because I was comfortable doing something I enjoy and went out of my way not to engage in it. If that makes me a hipocrite or complicit, I will have to carry that cross.
The GDB has been a cesspit for years but the sniping, general toxicity and casual shittiness has become intolerable.
This is why I chose to remove myself from these activities and situations. It is going to break my fucking heart to give it up but I feel like I have to step away. I hope I have never hurt anyone or caused hard feelings outside of the game. It is all love from me. I just wanted to tell stories. Bone swords and shit.
-WP
|
|
delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,656
|
Post by delerak on Mar 2, 2023 10:34:05 GMT -5
Staff has never been anything but kind to me in their official capacity. For more than 20 years I made my dumb jokes, ran around the imaginary desert, and had a grand old time. It was worth it. Some people are shitty. Those people can corrupt an otherwise good thing. I avoided digging into the drama and allegations because I was comfortable doing something I enjoy and went out of my way not to engage in it. If that makes me a hipocrite or complicit, I will have to carry that cross. The GDB has been a cesspit for years but the sniping, general toxicity and casual shittiness has become intolerable. This is why I chose to remove myself from these activities and situations. It is going to break my fucking heart to give it up but I feel like I have to step away. I hope I have never hurt anyone or caused hard feelings outside of the game. It is all love from me. I just wanted to tell stories. Bone swords and shit. -WP Have fond memories of us talking all night on aim. You avoided the drama so nothing wrong with that. You're a legend and your bone swords shall chop in my dreams forever 👊
|
|
bebop
Clueless newb
Posts: 106
|
Post by bebop on Mar 2, 2023 12:23:57 GMT -5
This is a list I've compiled of players that have tried to dabble or been active in the community recently and left (many in wake of harassment and circumstances directly related to the systemic issues I brought to light.)
I would not call these players senior players, but cornerstone players. Almost all had max karma - a reflection of staff trust and were skilled leaders, players and even staff.
I'm opening with that because the fact that staff's announcement says that some staff think nothing needs to change is distressing. The fact that the GDB and Discord were shut down and key, senior players are leaving in droves and the response from staff staff is to think there is nothing wrong is verging on insanity. Whoever these staff members are, they don't seem capable of understanding leadership in any capacity if they are unconcerned about the state of the community at present.
This tells me that (again) staff are operating within a vacuum. They are disconnected from the player base. It's a poor chess player (and one that only understands the game at a most surface level) that thinks pawns are there to be thrown away indiscriminately. Players are not expendable, especially not good, long-term players. If staff members can see them leaving in droves and just shrug it's not a good indication that staff understands how imperative it is work with the player base, nor do they care about their players. Clearly not all staff are doing this, but the fact that any staff feel so strongly that nothing is wrong they felt the need to included it in the announcement is ... strange.
The boards were then opened to members only. (Obviously they've banned many of us, so that's already a way to keep the discourse one sided.) I don't know if they realized that with how they structured this "discussion" it looked like people that wanted to participate were coming into occupied territory with proverbial guns on their back. Meanwhile, staff is simultaneously trying to tell people it was a "safe space and nothing was taboo" while also informing them they'll be banned if they stray from the perimeters staff pre-established for the discussion. The cognitive dissonance is palpable. Nothing is off the table - as long as you don't mention names, don't say anything too negative, aren't already banned and don't suggest you won't play anymore. They're once again trying to modulate everything the players that remain can say.
The bigger question is why? At this point what to do staff have to lose by letting anyone who wants to communicate do so how they want to? Is this to spare staff feelings? What exactly are they trying to accomplish by increasing moderation and control when this entire thing was caused because they couldn't moderate and control themselves? What further harm could possibly be caused by actually letting people communicate, feel their feelings, share their experiences and their thoughts? Not letting people vocalize their concerns without a filter is exactly why people sought out other platforms. There is no face left to save. There is no point in trying to continue to operate from a hill of control. Staff lost that privilege when they sheltered an abuser, didn't take whistleblowers seriously for years and then let that person (and presumably other staff members directly or by proxy) cheat the entire game to an absurd degree until someone called them for it.
The announcement also comes off as slippery and disingenuous. We don't condone abuse, but also staff can't really police outside of the game. And also some staff think there's nothing wrong. No, here I'll write it up for you staff. Here is what we want to hear:
There. Why was that so hard?
Again, I cannot even begin to discuss "fixing" the game when the culture that is very scaffolding of the game is so very broken. The fact that a response like what I just drafted isn't what we got, but instead more bans, more players leaving, and a single extremely moderated thread with several perimeters is telling. Staff will simply not speak directly or genuinely. It's coming off as more manipulation. I practically begged staff before going public with this to hear me out. I was shut down harshly. Stop defaulting back to authoritarianism and obfuscation and take REAL accountability.
The response to this is incredibly disheartening and the fact remains that you're punishing the whistleblowers and victims while maintaining a place for the abusive person in question. It's a glaring decision that silently says much.
|
|
|
Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Mar 2, 2023 12:50:03 GMT -5
there are gmod darkrp and ttt servers run and moderated by actual children that are more transparent, fair, accountable, and even-handed than i think i've ever seen from arm's staff team lately
i get that it's a different game and not exactly apples-to-apples, but still
it's wild to think about
|
|
mood
Displaced Tuluki
JOHN DARNIELLE #1 FANZONE
Posts: 335
|
Post by mood on Mar 2, 2023 13:26:15 GMT -5
Staff has never been anything but kind to me in their official capacity. For more than 20 years I made my dumb jokes, ran around the imaginary desert, and had a grand old time. It was worth it. Some people are shitty. Those people can corrupt an otherwise good thing. I avoided digging into the drama and allegations because I was comfortable doing something I enjoy and went out of my way not to engage in it. If that makes me a hipocrite or complicit, I will have to carry that cross. The GDB has been a cesspit for years but the sniping, general toxicity and casual shittiness has become intolerable. This is why I chose to remove myself from these activities and situations. It is going to break my fucking heart to give it up but I feel like I have to step away. I hope I have never hurt anyone or caused hard feelings outside of the game. It is all love from me. I just wanted to tell stories. Bone swords and shit. -WP hey buddy, hope you've been well.
|
|
|
Post by poorimpulsecontrol on Mar 2, 2023 14:34:58 GMT -5
[hey buddy, hope you've been well. Thriving, my friend. 5 healthy kids, career is booming, getting better every day. I recently lost a favored hobby but eh, shit happens. Can't have it all. Honestly, with you and Delerak here, if Ghost and Liyola turned up, my favorite Arm mob would be complete. And whoever played Veya.
|
|
|
Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Mar 2, 2023 15:23:13 GMT -5
just watched valeri(a)/AllanakiLackey's post get moved on the grounds of "this player said they are never coming back", despite the post itself mentioning that returning sometime in the future is definitely a possibility
it is actually frustrating watching them do shit like that
it's not like they're unaware that they're being watched closely
it's like watching someone spamming peek and steal and failing repeatedly without stealth, and just not acknowledging that they've been caught several times over
|
|
mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,328
|
Post by mehtastic on Mar 2, 2023 15:25:34 GMT -5
If by "a few posts" you mean "just Val's post", then sure "a few posts" were moderated. I don't know why the staff lie about easily verifiable stuff even when they are backed into a corner like this.
|
|
|
Post by poorimpulsecontrol on Mar 2, 2023 15:28:30 GMT -5
That is why I put my peace-out post here. Halaster made very clear he didn't want my opinion. Bolded it and everything.
|
|