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Post by lechuck on Feb 2, 2023 4:36:47 GMT -5
Halaster made this thread asking what would entice players to play more in cities. Most replies are tiptoeing around the issue because it's faux pas to discuss the way the code works, so here's the truth. Playing in cities has sucked ever since they changed the combat skillgain code to depend on your opponent's skills. Before that change, as long as you could fail, you could gain. Now, you only gain if your sparring partner's skills aren't significantly lower than yours. As a result of this change, a character with mediocre combat skills will get nothing out of sparring with new recruits, and these always make up the bulk of clans. You just don't get to spar with other older characters often enough to make meaningful progress from that alone, and in most cases, you can't leave the city at will to go looking for progress elsewhere. Before this change, your defense could go up by fighting anyone as long as they hit you, and it was easy to make this happen. This meant that the older characters in the clan could continue to raise their defense, enabling gainful sparring with each other. You might not be missing attacks against the recruits, but they'll hit you if you let them. Since this gave defense gains, it helped Sergeant Amos and Trooper Malik to train each other up as well. You could always get something out of sparring, even if it wasn't against the clan's veteran badass. For unclanned city chars you had the Labyrinth in the south and hawks/stilts in the north to serve the same purpose. There were ways to skill up in cities, or close enough to the cities that you could do it as a city char. That went away as well. While the militias now have sparring NPCs, they're only available like twice per real life day, and not to recruits, and it randomly selects one of several NPCs where at least half of them are just not skilled enough to make a difference. Since it's limited exclusively to promoted members of the militia, it has minimal impact on the general city population. It literally only applies to AoD/Legion privates, corporals and sergeants, so even if you find them useful, it's only if you play that exact role. This change ruined the appeal of city play for any character that depends on combat skills. Since Amos and Malik now gain defense only when they spar each other, not the five recruits they spend most of their time with, progress is just too slow to see meaningful improvements over a reasonable timeframe. If you're gaining one point per week, and it takes ten or twenty more points before you once more start to dodge your sparring partner's attacks, it's just too long. I noticed a clear shift in player trends when this change was implemented. Once people experienced its effects, players increasingly left the city and its clans in favor of playing characters that had the freedom to roam the world. The city populations thinned out, and it had a knock-on effect of further driving away players who were deterred by the lack of interaction, even if they weren't bothered by (or aware of) the combat changes. It became a vicious cycle, because if you're playing some indie raider or d-elf ranger, most of your activities and interactions hinge on your skills. You need to have good combat skills so that you can survive and pursue your goals. Most things that happen in the game now depend to some extent or another on coded power because so many characters have moved to an environment where that's what takes precedence. This has made it even more unrewarding to play in cities where your combat skill progress is so limited, as is access to poisons, the freedom to use magic, etc. This means that when someone does decide to play in a city after all, they're likely to choose a role that has no involvement at all with coded power. Merchants, aides, herbalists, pickpockets, information-dealers and so on. While the game does need these, they also need city-bound characters that have coded power or else it all falls flat. If there are no assassins and thugs for hire, all plots that depend on these are out of the question. If there are no skilled fighters in the city, conflict with groups outside becomes unwinnable. I firmly believe that this one change to the combat skillgain code has ruined city play.
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Post by lechuck on Feb 2, 2023 6:40:51 GMT -5
On another note, Tuluk needs to close again. That place is just an irrelevant brain drain. Yes, players asked for the return of Tuluk... five or six years ago when the game was still clocking 200ish unique logins each week. Staff then waited and waited, and finally when the playerbase had shrunk to the point where it couldn't sustain a second city, they chose that time to reopen Tuluk. It was way too late, and by the time they pulled the trigger, it did more harm than good. The place never picked up any steam and is now a detriment.
If it hadn't closed in the first place, maybe the game wouldn't have lost as many players and the city could have been fixed instead of removed. Regardless, all it does now is dilute those who care for city play, and Tuluk has been completely irrelevant since its return. It's kind of sad to see those player-run shops they put in there which have never been picked up and just sit there shuttered, a symbol of how dead on arrival the place has been.
There are way too many playable locations for a game with this player count. Off the top of my head, it has: Allanak, Luir's, Tuluk, Red Storm, Labyrinth, like five d-elf tribes, and two different unrelated groups of desert cowboys. It's something like a dozen separate spheres in a game that struggles to break the 40 player mark during peak hours anytime there isn't a major RPT. I don't know why they have so many tribes, they add practically nothing to the game and should have been cooked down to two tribes with built-in mutual conflict.
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punished ppurg
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Post by punished ppurg on Feb 3, 2023 22:11:32 GMT -5
I riffed on this in the Shadowspeak so I'll put my thoughts on the forum too. For me, the issue of not playing in the cities comes down to utility and agency. It's always been the case that city-bound concepts are inherently handicapping themselves, compared to the risk vs. reward of being "outside" of the city. Also, being city-bound comes with its own risks: you have the nonsensical, overeager murder plots, and the angry Templars, and so on. The risk vs. reward is more skewed towards suffering slights that are "more tolerable" when outside of the city. For instance, getting killed outdoors by an NPC or a raider is something that a player can generally cope with; whereas you compare that to locked door backstab RP that happens in the city, which is a permanent indelible black spot in that player's mind for decades.
A while back (before the analyze change) I played an artisan in Allanak for a few solid weeks, and despite my layman ability to grind my skills, my character did not manifest any semblance of utility that would make anyone double-glance to interact with my character. So that was a few hours a day for a few weeks working on skills. At the end of that, I still couldn't "make a cool sword", I still couldn't make any decent clothes. I could basically only haggle things for half-price and that was it. So these mercantile classes require an IMMENSE, IMMENSE amount of grinding investment, throughout most of which your character is essentially useless and incapable and otherwise has no mechanical attractive mechanism to even justify a second glance by others in the city.
Compare that to being a raider, or a stalker, and playing solo text desert Skyrim like the meme goes. There's about a week of grinding where you could be considered a liability; but once you get past that hump, your character is a net benefit instead of a net detriment (in the outdoors game loop). Your character is attractive to have participate in outdoor game loop things, because they have the coded agency to assist and support and kill and so on. I never got that feeling with the Artisan role.
Another point, about the systemic issues that discourage character interaction in Armageddon. The design of military clans to be insular and adhere to "the schedule" necessarily restricts most clan concepts behind closed doors in their compound where they cannot be interacted with. What is the difference between an empty city, and a city filled with 10 PCs that spend > 85% of their time inside their compound? There is no functional difference. Has anyone ever thought of putting a fence on the edge of one of the clan compound's sparring rings, so that randoms can walk by and look in to see the people fighting? So that they can yell through the fence at the recruits, or so on? Or even run by asking for assistance? This would be a trivial javascript emote echo pipe like the kind already implemented in the Allanaki colosseum.
The lack of a where command: this would easily better facilitate players' abilities to gather in gathering spots, taverns, and so on. You could even set it for individual clans, so that say Byn members would be able to see that there is activity in the sparring hall. There are dozens of MUDs that have independently discovered the utility of a where command, in regards to increasing the agency of the playerbase to gather and interact; and for some reason, Arm just hasn't been able to evolve it. It's like a Civ IV endgame empire that hasn't unlocked Animal Husbandry, it just makes no sense.
I think that your point about the combat plateau is very keenly felt, and simply not spoke about because of the backwards censorship culture of the Arm community. But for me, it comes down to this. The cities in the game are supposed to be the player gathering positions. Their purpose is ... where characters can gather and network, make connections, scheme, and so on. If there is NOBODY IN THE CITIES, then there is no point to stick around in the city with the intent of networking. Your best bet is to dart in, sell your junk, buy your materials, and then leave before an invisible pickpocket can steal your beetle ticket.
A couple weeks ago, every single apartment in the Gaj was available for rent. Would this have even been thinkable 8 years ago? 3 years ago?
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Post by ocotilloskewers on Feb 4, 2023 14:16:53 GMT -5
There are way too many playable locations for a game with this player count. Off the top of my head, it has: Allanak, Luir's, Tuluk, Red Storm, Labyrinth, like five d-elf tribes, and two different unrelated groups of desert cowboys. It's something like a dozen separate spheres in a game that struggles to break the 40 player mark during peak hours anytime there isn't a major RPT. I don't know why they have so many tribes, they add practically nothing to the game and should have been cooked down to two tribes with built-in mutual conflict. It's not been posted on the GDB, but they're opening yet another tribe soon.
I think at this point, the staff should just go ahead and close the cities, and embrace desert ARK.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Feb 7, 2023 16:41:19 GMT -5
I'm inclined to agree that the combat code change put the final nail in the coffin that is city play, with restrictive clan schedules, and stuff like the obnoxious script that warns staff when a Byn member is leaving the city alone or going into the Labyrinth, essentially trapping Bynners in the city lest they face the wrath of an animated NPC. But I also think that if that's all it took to kill city play, then city play in general was already quite weak to start.
Armageddon's an RP game, at least in theory. In practice, it's a PvP game with an emote command. If people are playing outside more, it's so that they can grind skills and kill each other as their preferred form of PvP. If you want city PvP, you'd encourage political RP and mostly-nonlethal organized crime.
It's not surprising that the staff are thinking of opening a new tribe - they have no idea what they're doing, and they think adding new things directly correlates to increased player count. It does not, as my recent post on weekly trends shows.
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Post by lechuck on Feb 13, 2023 12:47:36 GMT -5
Now they're asking for input on which spheres they ought to close. Tuluk, of course, is not among the options in the poll.
An oft-cited view is that a lot of players quit when Tuluk was closed. Actually, that's not quite accurate. In fact, at the time, closing Tuluk caused a small increase in weekly numbers. With the closing of the city came a promise of increased support and staff presence in Allanak, and that was an enticing notion. People hoped that we would finally return to the days of renowned and influential nobles, notorious crime-bosses and frequent in-city conflict. There was clear enthusiasm for this.
And then it just never came. There was no increase in staff activity for Allanak, no new plots, nothing going on. They left Morin's open as a playable sphere, so most northern characters who didn't store just moved there and became even more of a non-factor for the game. City play continued to be an exercise in futility, but now with just one city to be bored and alone in instead of two. As a result, players left the game in large numbers.
That exodus has now been rewritten in people's memories as a direct consequence of Tuluk closing, not a result of the fact that absolutely nothing was done to actually accommodate the expected consolidation. Turns out if you do nothing whatsoever to make it appealing to play in cities, people won't. Instead, what we got was the ill-fated, shortlived nothingburger that was a playable gith tribe. I played in Allanak at that time, and we literally never even got so much as a tavern post about what went on out there. For anyone not directly involved in that, it might as well not have happened at all. And so, Allanak continued to be a ghost town.
After a year or so of this, some players started to ask for Tuluk back. I mean, if its removal wasn't compensated for in any way whatsoever, might as well just open it back up. Numbers hadn't begun to decline too badly yet. They really weren't significantly lower than in the months after Tuluk closed. It didn't gain any traction, though; and in the next two or three years, that's when the real exodus happened and weekly logins went from the 200s to 150-160.
And that is when staff then decides to reopen Tuluk towards the end of 2021, when player numbers were at their lowest ever point and could no longer sustain a second city. The return of Tuluk had essentially no impact on numbers, either--probably because just as they left Allanak adrift after Tuluk closed, they left Tuluk adrift after bringing it back. They flung the gates open and promptly turned their backs on it, and absolutely nothing has happened there since. Completely dead on arrival, as anyone could predict it would be under those circumstances. All it managed to do was further dilute the playerbase.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Feb 13, 2023 14:44:51 GMT -5
While it's true that the exodus from Tuluk's closure was a bit delayed and it's easy to link a lot of that to the lack of activity in Allanak, there are some other factors too. There's players who favored Tuluk, argued against its closure, and were called tree-huggers by Allanak stans until they left the game, and players who liked to be able to jump between Tuluk and Allanak with alternating characters so they weren't playing around the same PCs when their character died. And of course, players who were playing Tuluki characters, were promised staff support or preference for sponsored roles post-closure, and got nothing.
The staff at the time failed on multiple fronts. Players with Tuluki PCs felt abandoned by the staff, then they got aggravated when the promised support and preferential treatment for special roles didn't come through. That led not only to departures, but bad press for the game in the wider MUD community.
The idea of putting the various tribes up on a poll and telling the players to pick which ones they want to close is particularly sad in that there are, presumably, still players in these tribes. The extent to which those players watch this poll, watch their fellow players vote to close the clan they're having fun in, is going to be as demoralizing to them as it was to Tuluk players back when the GDB was collectively cheering on Tuluk's closure. This will be even more true if or when the staff do decide to close some of these clans and the sycophants come out of the woodwork to praise staff for making hard decisions ("... oh, and by the way, I never really liked that clan much anyway").
Sadly, in staff's quest to improve the game as much as possible while doing the least work possible, they will probably end up making the same mistake they did with Tuluk. Close a play area, offer nothing to replace it, drive people away, blame the reduced numbers on the huge dip that definitely always happens on Mother's Day, and repeat.
At the very least, I think staff posting this poll shows that they think closing clans is a good idea, but they want to float the idea first to see how many people they'll lose depending on what gets closed. Basically, it's a marketing tactic.
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Post by lechuck on Feb 14, 2023 0:48:21 GMT -5
The most baffling thing is still how they insist on doing only things that are far removed from the cities. Tribes, tribes, more tribes. Playable gith, until that fell apart. Reintroduction of the Tan Muark, which was a flash in the pan. A new race that lives out in the far-flung hills of nowhere. A new clan in the fucking Mul Outpost. Open all the d-elves. Do absolutely nothing for the two cities and pour all your efforts (scant as they may be) into tribes and other isolated pockets of the desert, and then wonder why everyone gave up on the cities.
And when the cities are dead, the whole world stands still; because while it can be interesting to play in a tribe for a period of time, nothing actually happens if the cities are dormant, because at the end of the day, all roads lead to Allanak. It has always been intended as the focal point of Armageddon, and the game has never functioned when Allanak did not live up to that.
Nothing can happen in this game when nobody gives a shit about the cities, because as much as one random player thinks it's cool to be the deadliest desert cowboy, that has almost no influence on anyone else except the people he kills. This has always been a game where the cities drive all meaningful events. Anytime they've tried anything else, it has simply failed to make any meaningful impact. The more dead the cities become, the more dead ArmageddonMUD becomes; and while I remain convinced that the game could do alright with one city, it cannot thrive when nobody is lifting a finger to make even that one city worth playing in. And that has been what this game is for quite a few years now.
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Post by mehtastic on Feb 14, 2023 5:29:37 GMT -5
The thread and related Discord conversation kind of blew up, resulting in Bebop being banned from the game's Discord server by Hestia. As I expected, players are basically eating each other with the "close the half I don't like and keep the half I like" logic. Also players bringing up that the GDB doesn't represent all players and most players actually avoid the GDB are getting ignored. I think a game that doesn't focus on cities will fail simply because the newbie experience will be completely dead. Imagine having to roll your first character in Allanak only to realize everyone else is outside the city. Or having the game allow newbies to roll their first character in a tribe, so they can take 3 steps outside of camp and die because they know nothing about the game. Maybe this game will euthanize itself after all.
At least staff publicly recognize they kicked themselves in the dick PR-wise. Which tends to happen when corporations use this marketing tactic of... we'll use our customers as our focus group and propose a radical change, and if they don't like it we'll go "haha just kidding... unless...". And then just do it later when the heat dies down. You would think that with 15 staff members, one would have enough brain cells to rub together to step up and say "hmm, maybe angering and scaring our playerbase all the time isn't a good idea?"
also, this is actually real. lmao. what an embarrassing loser.
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punished ppurg
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Post by punished ppurg on Feb 14, 2023 12:09:53 GMT -5
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Post by Azerbanjani on Feb 14, 2023 18:11:02 GMT -5
PPurg has a lot of good points.
The cities are ass right now. Or at least where when I got banned (And I Doubt have gotten better).
City benefits are basically 'you don't get attacked by random spiders' but now you get backroom pk'd (Assuming you are important, or even not important) and while 'safety' sounds like a fun benefit this is a game and games are supposed to be fun.
Early crafters are also hell. You basically need some piece of shit clan to join so you can mooch off them and play punching bag while you use their clan locker. The locker serves 2 purposes.
1: You'll get robbed the minute you actually get an apartment so you won't get robbed this way.
2: You need somewhere to store your 75 chalton hides.
The guy in the GDB thread who suggested the wisdom boost and all this shit about the way has brain drain. His brain is fucking empty. He has never played a video game in his entire life.
"If you want city PvP, you'd encourage political RP and mostly-nonlethal organized crime."
Sometimes people suggest completely removing something as a means of fixing it and usually that doesn't wind up being the case, but I legit thing most criminal RP would just get completely fixed by revamping the shit out of crimecode or outright removing it.
You can't have shit in detroit do shit in Allanak so your only 'criminal' acts are:
1: You are a known criminal. You will get arrested the minute you go into Nak. You use your influence to blackmail nobles. Basically: The Guild's cringe ass self. Sometimes you're even liked enough you can sit at the Gaj.
2: You know crime code is a bitch so your only criminal activities are to rob apartments, mount tickets, or plan instant assassinations because if you fuck up 30 guards will tackle you and everyone will know your height, gender, the soft soothing nature of your voice, and how you have a birthmark on your left hip.
For added flavor someone @ Shabago and ask why I got a full perma ban for 'trolling' when he only gets a week.
Then ask if he enjoys feeling like a 4th grader in time out.
When you get banned it'll be worth it. I guess I should answer the thread.
What would make cities worth playing?
Well lets look at cities. Weren't, aren't?, all of the noble houses playable? And aren't only like...two of them even 'populated' with nobles? (Populated meaning like, one poor son of a bitch playing in them). Why aren't more resources being devoted there? Maybe we could get another important Byn-esque organization somewhere. The Merchant houses got a lot of things on lock but there's still room for some sort of Guilds. Where's the healer's Guild? The Cartographers? (Lmao at me wanting to play a mapmaker and being told my staff some bullshit about the merchant houses and how it was impossible. Worthless staff). Give us an event that actually shakes things up. Salarr interests in Allanak fucking explode, their leader in the city gets accused of high treason, as they try to settle that nonsense arm manufacturers across the city unionize and form the weapons guild of Allanak. Have there actually be a chance for the arms in Allanak to be provided by a seperate group.
And you know, let players who invest themselves in this actually decide the fate. Not Redrobe-mc-rederson. Have npc weapon smiths contact player templars with bribes and requests for aide, petition nobles, hire muscle, set fires to Salarri stands at night and smear shit on their stalls.
These are ideas, and more, that people come up with when they have a brain.
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jenki
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Post by jenki on Feb 15, 2023 0:09:55 GMT -5
The recent trend of staff asking players for suggestions of how to run their game troubles me. Number one, players think they know what they want, but they don't really. Players will make a long list of things they say they want, but these things aren't going to make they suddenly have fun. Players don't know what they want until they get it.
Staff asking players, for example, what would make them play more in cities...... This makes staff look incompetent. Staff don't know how to get players to play in cities. Maybe it's because players don't want to play in cities. It isn't that complicated. If staff can't figure out why playing in cities isn't fun, they're part of the problem (declining city play, and declining play in general). Basically it feels like Ford engineers going to ford owners and asking them what would give their f-150 more horsepower. they might get a lot of answers but how useful will the answers be? Sure it might make the ford owners feel like they are being listened to, but won't likely improve the ford product.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Feb 15, 2023 5:51:09 GMT -5
Playing a crafter in a city-based clan sounds like hell tbh. If no one's playing in the cities, then crafting for a merchant house is probably as isolating as being in the Thryzn. Except there are three merchant houses with their own compounds. So you're alone, crafting stuff to put into a bag that your boss picks up, so they can sell the contents and give you your cut. How thrilling. Oh, and grinding a crafting skill from 20 (apprentice) to 80 (master) is 30 fails. Absolute mind-numbing gameplay. Playing in the Byn or the AoD? Even worse than being a crafter, if no one else in your clan is online, because you probably can't craft and you also can't train. So now everyone in the city is relegated to just logging in for RPTs because at least they know other people will be online then. The recent trend of staff asking players for suggestions of how to run their game troubles me. Number one, players think they know what they want, but they don't really. Players will make a long list of things they say they want, but these things aren't going to make they suddenly have fun. Players don't know what they want until they get it. Staff asking players, for example, what would make them play more in cities...... This makes staff look incompetent. Staff don't know how to get players to play in cities. Maybe it's because players don't want to play in cities. It isn't that complicated. If staff can't figure out why playing in cities isn't fun, they're part of the problem (declining city play, and declining play in general). Basically it feels like Ford engineers going to ford owners and asking them what would give their f-150 more horsepower. they might get a lot of answers but how useful will the answers be? Sure it might make the ford owners feel like they are being listened to, but won't likely improve the ford product. This is an interesting point. Players (and by extension, staff) are notoriously bad at making suggestions and decisions that are good for the game as a whole. They make suggestions that they would personally consider fun, but usually leave everyone else behind. They make suggestions and changes to the game in a very greedy way. In theory, improving the game should be a collaborative effort between players and staff. They all have a stake in making the game more fun. But right now they seem stuck in sort of a feedback loop. Before they asked about how to make city play more interesting, staff had asked about general feedback in the " Feedback on playing and logins" thread. The staff asked for suggestions, implemented some of them as solutions (along with their own random ideas like the mul outpost to drum up additional interest and draw former players back in), and now they are asking for suggestions to fix the problems that arose from those solutions. Inevitably, they will try to "fix" cities, break something else, and ask for solutions on how to fix that.
This is just what happens when staff have no good ideas of their own - when they can't be bothered to come up with anything, or just don't understand how to run a game. This is the end result of years of "brain drain" from the game. The revolving door into the staff team that takes in bright-eyed and bushy-tailed players ready to ascend to staffdom, and spits out jaded people that want nothing to do with the game ever again. This situation was an inevitability, because the staff body treated its playerbase like an infinite resource for recruitment.
All of the producers were once former players that were drawn back to the game by the prospect of staffing. They're on staff not because they were playing the game recently, but because they have friends on the staff team that contacted them because few players wanted to become staff. And when the current storytellers retire, they will almost certainly reach out again to old staff members because none of the remaining players want a part of it.
So now the game is fundamentally broken - clearly designed to accommodate 300 players but only possessing about 145. The problems will get worse as the players head off to Arx, Harshlands, etc. I don't think there is a feasible way to fix cities right now in 2023. Staff found themselves in a hole in mid-2022 and said "keep digging". And you can't dig upward.
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Post by Azerbanjani on Feb 15, 2023 9:06:20 GMT -5
"The recent trend of staff asking players for suggestions of how to run their game troubles me. Number one, players think they know what they want, but they don't really."
I just said this in another thread and I can't agree more. I was mostly talking about sandboxes/hex crawls in that thread, but it applies here.
In all honesty I think I have a decent idea of what I want to see, because I THINK people would enjoy it. Would I necessarily enjoy it? Not really. Would I really want to get involved in an arms manufacturer dispute on 90% of my characters? No. And the other 10 barely give a shit.
But that sort of thing makes the world look alive. It's interesting world building. It's something that people who do give a shit about could do. So I think that sort of thing would intrigue someone. The only enjoyment I get out of it is
1: It's a non-magic plot. Thank the fucking Gods. 2: It would be player involved, not this 'player driven but staff really just controls everything' nonsense. It would be obvious no player is the Salarri-Leaders, or the union leaders, but you can still interact with them. 3: It would have a non-predetermined outcome. Which honestly I don't trust staff to do anymore. At this point I'd rather they roll a fucking dice behind screen and not tell me what outcome they've arbitrarily decided.
Staff found themselves in a hole in mid-2022 and said "keep digging". And you can't dig upward.
If you keep digging you'll hit the other side eventually obviously. They just have to keep at it!
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Post by latrineswimmer on Feb 28, 2023 15:03:33 GMT -5
Just wanted to say combat clans even city based ones is a great way to get stronger, together, if you have two people at the same sort of level sparring each other 1-3 times a real life day they will get swoll.
Just not if you both etwo clubs and try to murder each other like most of Byn seems to do.
In terms of the city problem, it isn't about skills I think, it is about needing to pander to the sponsored roles rp wise or die. It gets tiring.
As more of the playerbase looks for a more casual less scheduled rp experience, they gravitate out of the cities. We are getting old, no time to match my schedule with a noble that plays 20% of the time I put into the game, not judging them for playing less but no thanks to being a servant/minion of a sponsored role that barely plays.
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