On the gdb is a thread about about the teeth of the rinth' and...it seems to be a back and forth whine fest, with immortal efforts that railroad the narrative of the guild.
"The Guild is powerful" even though ICly, through pcs and player interaction, it ebbs and flows, and the crews can be left to languish until someone upsets the vision of the virtual world and they post out the mul, or the maxxed assassin, or whatever tool has been laying dormant until someone is motivated (often as a negative backlash) to pull them into play.
The staff can say any one clan is "the clan" with the most influence in an area. The issue is if there is minimal confirmation of this statement it's like okay. Guild PCs are dying and Elf PCs are thriving so...
There's a few low effort ways to address this:
1. Make echoes of things occuring showing it to PCs. 2. Make rare event triggers of NPCs attacking (single attack) PCs of opposing factions like 0.10% 3. Provide a hidden shopkeeper NPC that sells goods to Guild people at favorable rates allowing them to show off their power 4. Stop claiming a single clan has longterm power and just have it fluctuate which will stop the primary complaint that the game doesn't play like the staff say the world should.
Post by MartenBroadcloak on Feb 22, 2020 4:05:37 GMT -5
fun fact. echos would solve this. because ppl dont trust staff for the obvious reason you have bunch of elves at guild base yelling being twats. ..they get an echo "you notice a lot of decaying elven corpses around" 90 percent of ppl are going to say oh holy fuck staff is here and elves look ded i am fucking out. they also remember.
that is basic gm'ing. its also WHY ppl dont trust staff.. because in a normal rp game if you got a guy who is going and doing some thing that is going to evoke a real bad reaction.. you give warning. Arm does not. here I give example..
In Marten's Gameworld, Clan A hates the color blue. they hate it violently. they are super powerful.
this character offers a clan guy a blue hat... as GM I know that this player falls in one of these buckets:
a) character should know clan hate blue IC. but player doesn't know OOC. == situation not IC, player lacks information, player is warned with "you would know the clan hate blue and they run shit here, are you SURE you want to do that?" (gm trope line most people go oh fuck no i dont)
b) knows clan hate blue IC and OOC, but player doesn't realize just how bad they hate blue, or how buff the clan is OOC. == situation not IC, player lacks context, player is warned like above
c) knows clan hate blue IC, but player is being a cockhat or a 'mavrick' == situation IC, player choosing to be a cockhat to the clan, player is still usually warned just common courtesy
Now.. In ARM the same scenario goes..
player is a, b or c == arm staff: I caTCH YOU DOing soOMethaNg BAD eAT REAL WORld COnsEquENCE BItcH (loads NPCs fucks your life exiles/murders/wreck faction relations/everyone hates you now etc)
TLDR: take 3 minutes off mudsex to write the bare minimum prompts and see if that doesn't fix some problems lul
Not new to any of you, but given this is the uncensored version: it’s really frustrating how Brokkr’s sole contributions in threads (at least the ones I’ve seen him post in) is to try to deflect any valid points to avoid having to acknowledge that staff might be able to make things better by changing something. And the second he gets called out on this shit he simply stops responding.
Shit like that is why I try to avoid reading the GDB.
Post by ppurg pallbearer on Feb 24, 2020 8:53:53 GMT -5
To give you credit gdbjohn, much of the staffers throughout Arm's history chose not to read the GDB, either.
Brokkr doesn't appear intellectually sober enough to offer a point, let alone an argument. The players have to read between the lines written in invisible ink: if you try to create something according to the theme but staff simply don't like it, you're going to have overpowered mobs spawned on you to wipe you out. It's been like that for 20 years. Why do people still play this garbage?
I read some of the recent GDB thread discussion, some interesting points.
1. Staff argument that Staff came from Players so any deeds they commit at the same deeds Players would do appears to have come full circle. Now players are making the argument that staff are just players who get to decide direction and so their memories and opinions are as biased as players.
2. Brokkr references excerpts from a helpfile that players can see
+ Even though not always seen blatantly, the Guild demands a fear from the town's merchants, commoners, and other organizations. No one seems to know much about the intricate affairs of this highly secretive group their reach seem to have no limits when it concerns their sinister business.
This is pretty much my tell don't show assessment. Like there are so many ways this could occur. Like it could be a wizard of Oz scenario where it's all rumor and gossip and the Guild doesn't really have that kind of power they just manage to project that they do. It could be the Guild is secretly a branch of the Black robes meant to control the city. It could be the Guild is led by some crazy undead sorc or something that Nak permits to live in the Rinth because reasons.
Notably Harmless posted right after that they are savvy to why the Guild is terrifying and why no one should ever fuck with the Guild but adds that she can't say why on the GDB, but that people can look into it.
3. Armaddict has a salient point about waxing, waning, risking. Setting up the Guild as some institution of the Rinth which can never truly be challenged is a glass ceiling like becoming a successful noble that gets promoted and stored. I know one of the themes of Armageddon is dying dystopia that is a remnant of a bygone era. Kind of like Warhammer 40k where things are maintained as they are despite the decay. If the staff do want to maintain the Guild as "the rinth clan above all" I would probably try and reflect that via players who make Guilders otherwise what's the point. That either means players are so irrelevant they don't warrant protection from the Guild they're serving/making money for or they do and it's inconsistent because of course it is you need someone to animate and it'll be hit or miss whether they're around when needed and stuff.
the shitty lack of coded enforcement is what leads to players bitching on both sides. example:
I've never, in all my time in the Guild, had a problem with people stealing from the Guild, once that measure was put in place. The issue then became "instant backstabs by rough-circle elves" and a lack of response from Guild NPCs when two clanned elves are yelling about how "the Guild is a bunch of pussies" outside the Folley, and killing PCs who try to engage.
i had that same experience. elves would stand outside the folley and throw in daggers at guild PCs in there. jack shit got done about it, and it'd be really easy for them to kill PCs by just hucking in poisoned daggers without fear of coded retribution because there's nothing coded to represent guild protection.
Folks seem to get upset when a mul is animated to remind elves that the Guild is bigger and more powerful than any of the elven rinth tribes, irregardless of how much time they have spent skilling their character up.
awesome. so hopefully maybe staff will eventually respond, possibly after my character or members of the guild crew are dead and either kill elf PCs (unlikely) or 'roleplay' roughing them up which has zero long-term consequences. when elf PCs do get punished, they get pissed off and cry about it like qwerty has for years.
And the Sun Runners are also the most powerful D-elf tribe (or they were? maybe it's two moons now? who the fuck knows)
Kurac was the most powerful GMH. Now they're not. Or are they? Seriously I don't know.
Byn had 50% of the pbase in it at one point.. until staff decided to do an RPT to solve that.
Haruch Kemad had 2 sorcerers (one NPC one PC) arguably far more powerful than any other clan that didn't have sorcerers. There were also immortal vampire elves and other such nonsense in the past.
How strong something is virtually means nothing. PCs can still pk PCs regardless. Some PCs want plot armor for their PC via this "virtual power" which is funny to me. AoD is a good example.. their is a huge standing army but soldiers die all the time and can easily be killed.
Yeah. The Guild is pretty much an illusion. Supposedly it's run by this weird shadow cabal of powerful whoevers, but it's never allowed to come into play. They only exist virtually. The clan usually has 1-3 players in it and is no more powerful in reality than what those players can accomplish. If they can't fuck you up, the Guild as an entire organization is incapable of fucking you up. There are players who will play along and pretend that the Guild is this scary mafia that you don't mess with, but there are certainly also players who see through the illusion and know that the worst that'll happen is a stern talking-to from staff. If you want to fuck with the Guild, the 5% chance of an animated mul is really not much of a deterrent. It's evidently a gamble that people are routinely willing to take, judging by how often the Guild is wiped out.
I'm not even sure what the solution really is. After all, you can't have staff animate a black-robed Putin to lay waste to the entire eastside every time some elf thinks it's funny to chuck knives into the Folley. I suppose one thing that always stood out to me was how the AoD seemingly has no policy whatsoever of respecting the power of the Guild. Generation after generation of Guilders end up executed whenever some blue-robed templar gets bored and wants to put a notch on his belt. This plays a big part in undermining the clan's purpose. People will play along for a while if you bribe them, but the moment you do anything that lets them justify the guillotine, it's the end of the latest iteration of the Guild. This happens year after year, almost like clockwork. Guidlers flounder for purpose, find something that makes them feel like their existence matters, do it, and get rounded up and put to death. The only exception was when Gin and Quick ran the show, and the reason for that is self-explanatory.
Some PCs want plot armor for their PC via this "virtual power" which is funny to me. AoD is a good example.. their is a huge standing army but soldiers die all the time and can easily be killed.
This is, honestly, exceedingly true.
You see this, this desire for "plot armor", on the GDB constantly, from players like Haede and Bebop. They want to play squishy merchant or sexy socialites, with automatic power gains, and automatic protection from other players, and it goes on and on, until they're basically saying they want to be able to be smart ass, rich playboy type pcs, who are untouchable by virtue of their skewed interpretation of the virtual world. Any kind of pc to pc accountability, somehow, must be curtailed, because they don't want to eat shit, like everyone else has to, when they piss off the wrong peoples.
Guild is a joke, and it has nothing to do with staff, who are probably just as sick of that failpit, as the rest of us. The people in the Guild usually have NO clue, how to run a criminal. They have, really, no concept of how to organize or the cost of business.
Typically, they act like hoodlum ganbangers, or like some GoT ripoffs. Its all trope. It's all cliche. It's lame, uninspired, and feel like ooc inserts from other RL IPs. They might as well be Aladdin.
Templars/nobles aren't gonna respond to trash played criminals, or want to be involved in that nonsense past a hurried execution of idiots, and people competent at running good criminals are already on team celf, or otherwise indie.
Best criminals I EVER played with, were freestyle indies, running their own hustles for their own reasons, not tied into garbage clans like the Guild.
Being tied to that hot mess, is flushing your pcs potential, right down the toilet.
Post by latrineswimmer on Mar 22, 2021 12:40:29 GMT -5
Been a couple of years since I have logged in here. Wanted to say Vex knocked it out of the park here. Players sometimes want plot armor but then act ridiculous as if nothing will ever happen to them, and have no idea how to run a proper criminal. These same players then bitch on message boards trying to oocly motivate imms to save their PCs from the hole they have dug for themself/ get revenge from beyond the grave. The Guild at PC level is little more than a street level gang generally, one of many gangs, and not one at the top. You have NPCs, a hideout, inbuilt contacts and generally what I have seen almost always is players will hold back for some time because you are "Guild". The Guild have many coded advantages over other criminals already such as elves who traditionally had to build from scratch.
In the distant past I remember it would always end in a Guild/Eastside bloodbath when the Guild Bosses would demand too much of the pclan/indie elves without the muscle or smarts to back up their threats. The elves on the other hand never demanded anything from the Guild PCs, but the Guild PCs constantly trying to flex their virtual clout can only really go so far before it becomes abuse and players acting like kids when they make up some rule during a game on the spot that makes them invincible.
If an elf is tossing knives into the Folley you better believe imms will come down on them like a ton of bricks. I have heard these stories forever about the Folley elf tossing knives but have never seen it or heard a firsthand account ic.
I have seen a guild PC backstabbing PC elves inside the tent bar which is run and guarded by Jaxa Pah though. This awful twink called Smoke, I think it was. Half Elf.
I have seen a few solid Guild crews over the years. Guild suffers from several vunerabilities that elves generally don't though, all of which are ic. Guild are much quicker to kill each other to promotion, and because everyone is out for number one betrayals are common. Humans and even dwarves have a lot of varied opportunity compared to elves, and opportunity breeds ambition. Guild leaders are rightfully paranoid, because they know that their own second in command is always more likely to kill them than any outside force. I am sure if people had the stats more guild leaders have been killed by their own guys than have been executed.
grumble: Necker, however much I miss saying "Sup my necker?", was a bit much. I can do without it because I see the reason why it's a bad idea. I'm not sure too many were offended but one is enough.
Dec 14, 2020 9:53:34 GMT -5
someguy: Was thinking to come back and play as an elf since I won arm as a d elf and later as a c elf... then realized I'd have to revamp my vocabulary now...
Dec 18, 2020 14:55:09 GMT -5
jkarr: lol yeah some idiots zoomed in to take offense on behalf of black players who didnt two shits about an ig word that some white ppl decided to treat as an ooc slur fail to split ic from ooc and then have staff cave in to their crying by litrally banning it
Dec 18, 2020 17:27:35 GMT -5