joe
Clueless newb
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Post by joe on Jan 13, 2020 10:30:40 GMT -5
Starting with a simple question and poll, comments to elaborate both in general and specific detail.
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joe
Clueless newb
Posts: 54
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Post by joe on Jan 13, 2020 10:37:52 GMT -5
Toss torch east (whoa, didn't know that one but it sure opens up the door for exploration and not falling into dark holes in rooms I can't see) - not exactly a secret, but a coded thing
How crimcode works, where it is, where it isn't. Not just a vague room description for you to guess at.
Secret entrances, doors, etc. Every one I've ever found has been shown to me organically via a pc...to reveal the coded syntax of the trapdoor,blockade,crack, or whatever.
'key .'
"Colors" Poisons and magicks. If someones eyes are glowing green, red, or purple...
If a taint is dark, green, or yellow.
If you're PC is skilled enough to distinguish between the two colors, let alone is using magick, it shouldn't be left on an OOC level to know what color is what.
The imbue totem spell. According to the recent thread there are only a few players who have discovered a coded effect that no one else knows, even magickers that are gemmed and train with vnpcs in temples for years, etc etc.
Those are just at the top of my mind from recent postings.
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
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Post by punished ppurg on Jan 13, 2020 10:41:38 GMT -5
Like all things, it's nuanced. The average person shouldn't really OOCly know everything that a Templar is capable of, for instance. However, I suppose that a great amount of the coded secrets in Armageddon are (or were) smokescreens for bad game design; or, on the other hand, a way for oldbies to propagate a knowledge handicap over newer players. Which of the old classes branches what is a perfect example. The frustration of the crafting system is another good example of coded secrets being wielded as an oldbie crutch. Decent game designers would not rely on this sort of obfuscation in their playing field.
So in the narrative sense, I believe that coded secrets are okay. Normal utility things? Those should absolutely be documented to the fullest extent possible. To insinuate otherwise is just maliciously clutching to an unwarranted advantage. It's not a position that can be taken in good faith in respect to your fellow players.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
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Post by Jeshin on Jan 13, 2020 10:54:33 GMT -5
Define code secrets.
If a code secret is imbue totem has different effects that you can discover through use. Sure.
If a code secret is where to get super rare poisons that you can discover through play. Sure.
If a code secret is how to travel to other plans that you can discover through experimentation. Sure.
The issue is when the code secret or mechanic is not transparent while providing a significant advantage and the odds of you encountering it through normal play is improbable. In general though code should be transparent it works for tabletop RPGs for decades not sure why secret mechanics is a benefit because even the examples I gave above are more discovery/RP situations and not straight... Dual wielding gives 2x str and blah blah blah.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 11:00:02 GMT -5
Toss torch east (whoa, didn't know that one but it sure opens up the door for exploration and not falling into dark holes in rooms I can't see) - not exactly a secret, but a coded thing How crimcode works, where it is, where it isn't. Not just a vague room description for you to guess at. Secret entrances, doors, etc. Every one I've ever found has been shown to me organically via a pc...to reveal the coded syntax of the trapdoor,blockade,crack, or whatever. 'key .' "Colors" Poisons and magicks. If someones eyes are glowing green, red, or purple... If a taint is dark, green, or yellow. If you're PC is skilled enough to distinguish between the two colors, let alone is using magick, it shouldn't be left on an OOC level to know what color is what. The imbue totem spell. According to the recent thread there are only a few players who have discovered a coded effect that no one else knows, even magickers that are gemmed and train with vnpcs in temples for years, etc etc. Those are just at the top of my mind from recent postings. Check out Tavens "Cool Code Things" It's a thread on gdb that lists cool little code bits that are actually pretty cool. |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jan 13, 2020 11:36:12 GMT -5
Players should be able to figure out how the game generally works on a basic level. Can you imagine playing Dungeons & Dragons, and instead of knowing you need to roll a 2d4, you are just told to roll and the DM just throws a bunch of dice at you? And if you roll the wrong type of die or the wrong number of dice then you're shot? That's basically how Armageddon worked pre-code dump. (That was sarcasm.)
Many computer games have simple enough mechanics that it's not important for the game to outline it. For example, in Fire Emblem games your physical damage is generally [(your weapon power + your strength) - (enemy's defense)]. You can figure this out intuitively because you can see your own stats, your enemy's stats, and the damage the game says you're going to do. And if you see you're going to do 10 damage, you can say "oh that makes sense, my sword does 6, I have 12 damage, and the enemy has 8 defense".
Games with more complex mechanics that are popular enough almost always have a wiki or something where the mechanics are explained. This goes for computer games as well as complex board games, card games, etc. No one cares to shut this down. Game designers that do a good job are usually quite happy to have these mechanics figured out, in my experience talking with game designers.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 11:50:05 GMT -5
This is the game that has no mechanical numbers, Mehtastic. The damages, the hurt levels, the skill description. None of it numerical. That is its style. I'm all for more code information, but min maxing does have a tendency to rip apart roleplay.
You mentioned d&d. Imagine if a party encounters an aboleth and a warrior with an intelligence of 4 screams, "Don't touch it's skin! It's venomous!"
I mean it's true, but the player read that out if the book, not within the game.
I guess it's the issue of playing to win, instead of playing to tell a story.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
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Post by Jeshin on Jan 13, 2020 11:53:46 GMT -5
And yet MUSHes have their entire system published because a lot of them don't have automation and many people would claim they are more roleplay centric than MUDs, even RPIs >_>
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 12:01:42 GMT -5
True. To each his own. Some people like one system some others. Mushes don't really have a system to publish, besides rudimentary contest resolution. Are you going to imply plot secrets are being published as well?
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Jan 13, 2020 12:07:27 GMT -5
I'm not sure how plot secrets are related to coded secrets, might want to find the proper thread for that.
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ibusoe
Clueless newb
Posts: 176
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Post by ibusoe on Oct 12, 2021 11:37:25 GMT -5
Starting with a simple question and poll
Thank you for being polite, but your point is abundantly clear.
I did my best but could only come up with two reasons to support secret features:
You're a twink and you're using my favorite sandbox as your twink playspace. I'm not exactly against you, but I wish that the five or ten twinks that actively bother to play the game anymore, were less vocal than they are because if people like me left (e.g. role-players) they'd all leave as well and go play something like Halo. But they can't cut it against real twinks in faster games, and for whatever reason our crop of twinks enjoy having one over on the role play crowd. They think their level seventeen ranger (oops, no rangers anymore) impresses us.
- You're a staff pet. One of life's apex cheaters, unaware that the rest of us are living life more or less honestly not because we're stupider than
you but because we don't want to be like you. We understand you and what you're doing better than you understand us (you who call us dumb)
but you think that your salary or the fact that you know which 'bone-tipped obsidian knife' is better than the rest amounts to something.
So I can't say that it's unambiguous that the Zork crowd is unambiguously wrong, because those two questions are more questions about personal value systems than they relate to pure logic or reasonable game balance. Isn't game balance that which leads to the funnest game? Most of us playing Arm are consentually playing an asymmetric game.
I think it would be more accurate to say that a group of role players have set up camp in an old hack and slash mud, and then a group of twinks have set up camp inside of our role-play camp. Mostly because they like us. I am by no means suggesting that we would be happier off without them (I would not).
The better question, is who benefits?
My humble suggestion is that the twinkers view the role-play crowd as the local team, and view themselves as guests in our space.
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ibusoe
Clueless newb
Posts: 176
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Post by ibusoe on Oct 12, 2021 11:45:29 GMT -5
This is the game that has no mechanical numbers, Mehtastic. The damages, the hurt levels, the skill description. None of it numerical. That is its style. I'm all for more code information, but min maxing does have a tendency to rip apart roleplay. You mentioned d&d. Imagine if a party encounters an aboleth and a warrior with an intelligence of 4 screams, "Don't touch it's skin! It's venomous!" I mean it's true, but the player read that out if the book, not within the game. I guess it's the issue of playing to win, instead of playing to tell a story.
I think it's naive to look at this as a numberless game. The game is about numbers for plenty of us.
I'd argue that the game is smoother now that the shadow board has opened up the information for all to have? Funny to know that for the first ten years I played....people who had higher scores than me were mostly not that much better than me, they were mostly cheating. I don't question that you mean well, but I think that what you're suggesting is a form of political correctness ("Here are things that I wish were true.").
I think it would be better if newer players have better access to information. Staff are often patronizing when you ask them how the game works.
When I was last playing, the game had much improved since the Nessalin days.
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ibusoe
Clueless newb
Posts: 176
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Post by ibusoe on Oct 13, 2021 15:53:46 GMT -5
Minimally I shouldn't have to guess if the (largely inadequate) code base supports some particular action or not. If their code base can't keep up with my imagination, they should at least be honest about it. The code base is a mere referee for the times when a staff member is not present for a role-play scene and player interaction is unable to result in an agreement.
Where that referee is not present it should be immediately obvious. When there is no lifeguard on duty, a responsible property owner will post signs at a swimming pool to let people know that they are their own lifeguard.
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