jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Nov 18, 2019 15:18:57 GMT -5
Sorcerers played as actual sorcerers are pretty much just not a thing anymore because it isn't really viable to be universally kill-on-sight when you have access to only one school of magick. Elementalists are now mostly a way to buff your warrior's strength or use demonfire as an alternative to backstab. If anything, I think the modern magick meta of Arm encourages guild-sniffing because it's simply the only way you'll ever find out if someone's a magicker. It has become harder than it was, but discovering a magicker in any other way has become borderline impossible compared to the days when spying on one for long enough would eventually reveal their nature. And for all that the old magickers were powerful, they were powerful in their own niche and had weaknesses and disadvantages to balance it out. Now it's just "my human assassin has mul strength when it suits me." There's no counterplay, magick is just +5 to whatever you're already good at. The code used to kind of enforce the social gulf between magick and mundane because the two did not coexist well codedly. Now it's all about coded synergy and combat power. seems staff set it up that way for those results and it looks like they preferred that possibility over onedimension onetrick ponies that were easier for abusive players to sniff out and let that bleed into their ic interaction with them this setup helps with that ooc tendency a bit but unless there are way way fewer sightings of gemmed and rogue mages now than before then i dont think thats a prob but ur the only one here ive heard suggest that unless staff are witchhunting lol ppl who play their chars like their magick is just a buff then it looks like they intended it this way careful tho it almost could sound like u want more of the excess mage shows ppl were bitching abt just before the changes went in lol
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2019 15:32:37 GMT -5
While there were definitely issues with the old class system where magickers were usually all wizard and little else, one thing it did was ensure that magick remained relevant. It was more than just a statistic of how many PCs per capita have hidden superpowers that you have no idea about until the day they kill you with it, it was a whole venue of roleplay. Now you can play five consecutive characters and never come across magick in any way, shape or form. It's one of the many ways that the game has become increasingly impoverished and steered in a direction of "login, spar, craft, fuck, logout." It's yet another item crossed off the list of things that a typical character will have reason to roleplay about. Even as someone who hardly ever played mages and was only ever on the receiving end of their barbs, I miss the days when it was something that actually mattered to my characters and could be encountered often enough to where that defining feature of the setting felt real. I agree with most of your posting, but your comment about not seeing mages in the current incarnation of the left me wondering if we are playing the same game. With six areas to play in right now, I have been painfully aware of at least three mages operating openly in each.
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Post by lechuck on Nov 18, 2019 16:21:17 GMT -5
I actually agree that guild-sniffing is easier now, although I would say the intent of staff was to make guild-sniffing harder. It's easier because characters who are not mages will have the skills of their class plus mundane skills of a subclass that complements the guild's class, and characters who are secret mages won't have that flexibility (they will only have class skills). For example, if an Artisan can fight, or brew, or knows multiple languages, they're probably not a magicker. But if they can't do any of those things, then they probably are one. In fairness, it hasn't really become easier. Plenty of players don't use half their skills, or pick a subclass just to start with a skill instead of having to branch it, even if that subclass gives no new skills to your main class. You'll have your share of false positives if you try to guild-sniff. What has changed is the fact that whereas magickers once had to live by the spell due to a lack of other skills, they can now just pretend that they simply aren't magickers 99.9% of the time, and only cast spells when it's strictly necessary or when they can be pretty sure nobody's around. It used to be that if you suspected someone was a gick, you could spy on them for a few hours and usually catch them doing something that outed them. While that could still happen, it's a lot less reliable now because a gick is also a full-fledged mundane without any need to actually rely on their spells. The magick just sits there undetectable in the back pocket until one day they need to use their ulti. Skillset-sniffing is pretty much the only way, now. It's not particularly effective, but catching someone casting is next to impossible when all gicks have a full mundane skillset and know that 50% of the playerbase is a miscreant so they're not gonna be careless about it. There's a level of gamesmanship in both scenarios, but the new way is the one that's most boring and leads to the least conflict. You no longer have enclaves of rogue mages acting out the role of gamewide villains, you no longer have notorious defilers roaming the land, you no longer have the C.A.M or any of that shit. Magick is just this thing you know exists but probably never encounter unless you're playing a templar, Sun Runner or Guild member. There's a 1% chance that one of your PC's friends turns out to be a gick and reveals it to you in the course of roleplay, but for my anecdotal part, that simply hasn't happened even once since the class revamp. It happened to me quite a few times before then, when being a gick was a way of life instead of a trump card you pull out when it wins you the game and completely ignore anytime it doesn't. The dynamic between magick and mundane is an important part of Zalanthas that has completely gone missing these days. The way they should have done it is the way sorcs and psis used to work: they had a unique selection of subguilds that were just less powerful versions of the mundane guilds. You'd pick sorcerer/ranger and get the ranger skillset up to middling levels, for instance. The skills were high enough to succesfully skin an animal or go into hiding, but not so high that they competed with mundanes. Staff should just have done the same for elementalists. The problem was that elementalists had no mundane skills whatsoever, so it was easy to sniff them out unless the player was experienced enough to know how to fake being a given guild without having the skills. This issue could be solved wholesale by grafting the sorc/psi subguild system onto elementalists, and adapting it to the new classes. Instead we got gicks that are full-fledged rangers and warriors and assassins (their modern counterparts, anyway) except with spells on top and no disadvantages whatsoever. While elementalists have far fewer spells now than they used to, the spells themselves are, for the most part, just as strong as they were; and the old elementalists' spell lists were mostly filler anyway, you had a handful of powerful spells that you relied on and a bunch of situational crap that you probably only ever cast to branch the good stuff. There's now a Rukkian subclass that gets the entire lineup of Ruk buffs. That's like 80% of what the old Rukkian guild was about, the rest was a few occasionally useful ones like Burrow, Paralyze and Wall of Sand and then a bunch of garbage. Strength, Godspeed, Fury, Stoneskin and Armor were the key spells for Rukkians, and there's a subclass that gives all of those. Graft those onto a combat class and you break the game completely; but you're not gonna be a wizard in a robe, you're gonna be completely indistinguishable from any other raider until you feel like pushing your godmode button.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Nov 18, 2019 16:47:59 GMT -5
The way they should have done it is the way sorcs and psis used to work: they had a unique selection of subguilds that were just less powerful versions of the mundane guilds. You'd pick sorcerer/ranger and get the ranger skillset up to middling levels, for instance. The skills were high enough to succesfully skin an animal or go into hiding, but not so high that they competed with mundanes. Staff should just have done the same for elementalists. The problem was that elementalists had no mundane skills whatsoever, so it was easy to sniff them out unless the player was experienced enough to know how to fake being a given guild without having the skills. This issue could be solved wholesale by grafting the sorc/psi subguild system onto elementalists, and adapting it to the new classes. when this was a thing for sorcs and psis they had their full spellsets if this system was grafted onto mages would u keep the watered down classes or revert them back to full
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Post by sirra on Nov 19, 2019 3:26:42 GMT -5
That isn't people 'abusing' the system, its you being dissatisfied with the system as it was designed. Throwing words like 'abuse' around too casually, leads to people dismissing legitimate claims of abuse, imo.
Edited to clarify: 'you' being used generally, not YOU specifically. English, is a bother.
'Abusing' = 'Taking intense advantage of', simply worded in a more flippant and indifferent fashion. More specifically, I just dislike the evolution of the game's class system in general. Before all of the tinkering, mundane and magick classes had pretty specific challenges and play styles. You could be Karma 0, but still make a great character with a ranger or a warrior if you were willing to put in the work. As some have already touched on, magickers and mundanes also had a lot of mutual use for each other. Like foraging slate for a krathi, or providing a bodyguard, etc. It felt like a very defined system with its own culture. Even after the initial changes, mundanes needed to have the extra karma to sink into subguilds, and you were more likely to have to live with a shitty stat roll. It was just more work. If you did have a ~karma 3 subguild, then playing a mundane wasn't even worth it anymore, and there was a limit to how many of those you could roll. Before that, it felt like people could make cases for different classes being the best under certain conditions. After that, everyone knew what the best thing to be was. Not that a certain degree of tankmaginess wasn't always possible before, but they were a LOT of work. Or else you were a warrior PC that was given sorcerer powers in some bullshit valley plot. It was the exception rather than the rule. I had much more fun working on a viv, ruk or krathi's off/def and relying on their magick to do the rest than the later system. And yes, I also enjoyed playing a mundane and then taking it to the next level with rings or magic weapons (until those were nerfed). The current system doesn't even seem remotely interesting to me, for a lot of reasons lechuck detailed. It's probably what has made it easiest for me to never play again. This summarizes my feelings on this subject better than anything else I could write:
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vex
Clueless newb
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Post by vex on Nov 19, 2019 3:37:25 GMT -5
"Abuse" doesn't have to be the gaming culture definition of "exploiting a bug or unintended feature" or whatever people think Sirra meant.
The difference is important: Abuse implies intending to be malicious, and I don't believe the GDB hype about 'game is burning down because of abusive players'. If you give people the option, you can't punish them for using the option (again, YOU generally, not YOU specifically), or call them cheaters and abusers over it. Its like, when one mmo class gets buffed and suddenly everyone is that class by the end of the week. Of course they are. They're not abusing the game, they're just going where the easy fun and power is.
I agree with basically the entire post otherwise, and especially about people playing magickers for the unseen buffs and secret benefits, whilst more or less completely ignoring the fact they're magickers. Own it, or just be a mundane, imo. With changes to enh subs, you can now play some REALLY good combos, that are EASILY more powerful than a 3 karma magicker, so unless you absolutely must have AI str... there isn't a reason to play an 'only mundane' magicker anymore.
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Post by sirra on Nov 19, 2019 3:39:28 GMT -5
"Abuse" doesn't have to be the gaming culture definition of "exploiting a bug or unintended feature" or whatever people think Sirra meant.
The difference is important: Abuse implies intending to be malicious, and I don't believe the GDB hype about 'game is burning down because of abusive players'. If you give people the option, you can't punish them for using the option (again, YOU generally, not YOU specifically), or call them cheaters and abusers over it. Its like, when one mmo class gets buffed and suddenly everyone is that class by the end of the week. Of course they are. They're not abusing the game, they're just going where the easy fun and power is.
I agree with basically the entire post otherwise, and especially about people playing magickers for the unseen buffs and secret benefits, whilst more or less completely ignoring the fact they're magickers. Own it, or just be a mundane, imo. With changes to enh subs, you can now play some REALLY good combos, that are EASILY more powerful than a 3 karma magicker, so unless you absolutely must have AI str... there isn't a reason to play an 'only mundane' magicker anymore, except for the flavor of it.
You seem to think the game can still be saved.
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vex
Clueless newb
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Post by vex on Nov 19, 2019 4:21:37 GMT -5
Nothing lasts forever.
I'm enjoying my current pc, and I enjoy sitting around (usually, at work, getting paid $+++) theorycrafting combos. That's enough for me. I'm not chasing some gold standard in text RP, and I'm not trying to save anything. I'm just having a good time.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 19, 2019 17:47:31 GMT -5
If you (general you) are having fun playing the game like the hack-and-slash it's designed to be, more power to you. My primary criticism of present-day Armageddon is that it bills itself as an RPI when it really isn't. It's false advertising. My other criticisms of the game (such as poor design choices and bureaucratic functions) are secondary to that. The new class system is one of those poor design choices, but if we're being real then it's maybe 1% bad compared to the fact that it advertises itself as a collaborative storytelling game when that absolutely, definitely does not happen on a large scale in this game.
Edit to summarize part of post that got eaten: The classes definitely aren't balanced. They never have been. The staff justified the lack of balance at one point as intentional. Now the classes are even more imbalanced. We either take away that this design decision is still intentional, or it's unintentional. If it's intentional, to what end was it intended? It's a well known fact that Brokkr is very heavily mechanics-focused, and would be what many players pooh-pooh as a "twink" when he plays mortal characters. So even a charitable examination of the class system yields evidence of self-enrichment.
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Post by lechuck on Nov 19, 2019 19:15:43 GMT -5
I mean, it kind of depends on the definition of an RPI. One could argue that an RPI has no obligation to offer good, worthwhile roleplay, merely the core ruleset that the genre was borne from. Armageddon still has permadeath, sdescs in place of names, and a general lack of OOC features like a who list or chat channels. It's just that it has become the McDonald's of RPIs. McDonald's can call itself a restaurant because it's a place where you can go and sit down to eat food that you bought on the premises. It's shit food and the place has all the charm and atmosphere of a discount supermarket, but it is technically a restaurant. Armageddon is technically an RPI, only it has managed to drag itself down from the flagship sire of the genre to the place where people who don't care too much about the RP part can go and stick bone daggers into dudes and feel fulfilled because the permadeath feature makes the other guy satisfyingly upset.
The new classes are definitely a balancing nightmare. The old guilds actually were balanced in their own way: they weren't all equally valuable in some objective sense, but they all had a corner of the gameplay spectrum to themselves. Want to rob houses? It's burglar. Want to steal shit? It's pickpocket. Want to win spars? It's warrior. Want to travel the world? It's ranger. Want sneak attacks? It's assassin. Want to craft? It's merchant. Now there's all these classes that are largely pointless because the thing they're built around is done better than some other class. Why the fuck would someone play a soldier or pilferer? What's the point of the laborer class? Has anybody ever even created an adventurer? Why is fence a crafting class? Isn't selling self-made goods the literal antithesis of what a fence is?
The biggest mystery is why Brokkr chose to let one class - the miscreant - master basically every skill that isn't combat or crafting. It's beyond absurd how pampered this class is. Every stealth, manipulation and perception skill at master--unless you're specifically trying to build a combat powerhouse, miscreant is just objectively the best choice for any city-based character. Meanwhile you've got infiltrator that masters basically nothing but backstab. It has pretty much the same skillset as miscreant, except instead of mastering everything but backstab, it masters backstab and basically nothing else. It's literally called infiltrator and they couldn't give it master stealth or lockpicking? You just know that whoever came up with this, whether it was Nerg or Brokkr, had recently lost a beloved character to an assassin and wanted to eliminate that playstyle.
It's pretty clear that when they started to plan the new classes, they drafted the names and category grid before putting any thought into the actual skill distribution. Then they were left with the problem of inventing a meaningful purpose for three different warrior classes, three different stealth classes, etc. Instead of adjusting the categories to match the game's skills, they just allowed half of the classes to be trash. Players who know their way around the code are not inconvenienced since they can just pick the classes that are actually worth playing, but it really amplifies the advantage of code knowledge. Someone who isn't as experienced might get the idea that it makes sense to pick the soldier class if that's the word that best fits your role, not knowing that it'll saddle them with a character that will never be able to become more than a middling fighter in a role that has no other purpose than to fight. Then we, with the knowledge of how much a single nominal level in parry matters, can beat them every time and they'll be punished for their choice.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 20, 2019 5:51:11 GMT -5
"McDonalds of RPIs" is a good way to describe Arm.
I agree that they probably came up with the city/wilderness, heavy/light focus framework before actually coming up with the ideas that would fit within that framework. The new class system is such an unforced error, that's all that could really explain that particular disaster. I think the staff set up the classes they wanted to play. It wasn't so much a focus on removing certain play styles from the game, but adding incredibly broken play styles that staff members could inhabit within their own characters. But there probably also was some playstyle-removal as well; one obvious example of such is how they cut mastercrafting from many classes that would be capable of it, and turned it into a subclass-exclusive feature, before returning it to certain classes (Artisan?). We can only speculate on whatever else staff were salty about, but the staff expressed their sheer contempt for mastercrafting for years.
I think Armageddon players need to take a good, hard look at the design direction of the game over the past decade or so. It offers several rich examples of poor game design decisions. The staff really don't know what they're doing. If Armageddon was an MMO with ten times the number of players, there would be essays written by people who study game design on its failures, and what similar games can do better. Maybe former staff will post articles on Gamasutra once Morgenes gets tired of paying for the server and players suddenly find that they can't log in. Until then, unfortunately, all Armageddon has by way of critique is a handful of people here that it never really pays full attention to.
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
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Post by my2sids on Nov 20, 2019 9:53:28 GMT -5
Due to public complaints master crafting is available to 3 main guilds again. (The crafting focused ones.)
"September 3, 2019 (Tuesday)
Not a code release, but a policy shift some folks might want to know about.
-Artisans, Dune Traders and Fences are now allowed to custom craft.
Toss me a request if you are one of the handful of folks that have combined one of these classes with the subclass "Custom Crafter" and we'll talk, since while other classes will still get benefit from this subclass, these three classes no longer will (since everything is duplicative)." -Brokkr
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Post by jcarter on Nov 20, 2019 10:44:02 GMT -5
The new classes are definitely a balancing nightmare. The old guilds actually were balanced in their own way: they weren't all equally valuable in some objective sense, but they all had a corner of the gameplay spectrum to themselves. Want to rob houses? It's burglar. Want to steal shit? It's pickpocket. Want to win spars? It's warrior. Want to travel the world? It's ranger. Want sneak attacks? It's assassin. Want to craft? It's merchant. Now there's all these classes that are largely pointless because the thing they're built around is done better than some other class. Why the fuck would someone play a soldier or pilferer? What's the point of the laborer class? Has anybody ever even created an adventurer? Why is fence a crafting class? Isn't selling self-made goods the literal antithesis of what a fence is i've said from the beginning that i just don't understand why they picked 15 classes. even neglecting the fact that there's so many subclasses -- 50+, there are 50+ subclasses i just counted them -- it's a nightmare to sit there and figure out what exactly separates them except going skill by skill. the 'general' classes seem pointless. and do there really need to be 'light mercantile' classes? how many classes can you transform into another one just by taking a subclass -- e.g., couldn't you just make a 'light mercantile' class by making a full mercantile and adding subguilds to it? what a completely unnecessary clusterfuck.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Nov 20, 2019 11:34:43 GMT -5
Due to public complaints master crafting is available to 3 main guilds again. (The crafting focused ones.) "September 3, 2019 (Tuesday) Not a code release, but a policy shift some folks might want to know about. -Artisans, Dune Traders and Fences are now allowed to custom craft. Toss me a request if you are one of the handful of folks that have combined one of these classes with the subclass "Custom Crafter" and we'll talk, since while other classes will still get benefit from this subclass, these three classes no longer will (since everything is duplicative)." -Brokkr Thanks, I remember it going down vaguely like that but it's good to have it confirmed. The new classes are definitely a balancing nightmare. The old guilds actually were balanced in their own way: they weren't all equally valuable in some objective sense, but they all had a corner of the gameplay spectrum to themselves. Want to rob houses? It's burglar. Want to steal shit? It's pickpocket. Want to win spars? It's warrior. Want to travel the world? It's ranger. Want sneak attacks? It's assassin. Want to craft? It's merchant. Now there's all these classes that are largely pointless because the thing they're built around is done better than some other class. Why the fuck would someone play a soldier or pilferer? What's the point of the laborer class? Has anybody ever even created an adventurer? Why is fence a crafting class? Isn't selling self-made goods the literal antithesis of what a fence is i've said from the beginning that i just don't understand why they picked 15 classes. even neglecting the fact that there's so many subclasses -- 50+, there are 50+ subclasses i just counted them -- it's a nightmare to sit there and figure out what exactly separates them except going skill by skill. the 'general' classes seem pointless. and do there really need to be 'light mercantile' classes? how many classes can you transform into another one just by taking a subclass -- e.g., couldn't you just make a 'light mercantile' class by making a full mercantile and adding subguilds to it? what a completely unnecessary clusterfuck. The funny thing is that even if they wanted to do the whole city/wilderness, crafting/combat thing, only 6-9 classes would have been needed (2-3 each for toe-to-toe combat, crafting/merchant focused classes, and I guess stealth?). 15 was completely unnecessary. You can cut it down to 6 if you only create city and wilderness themed classes, and don't bother with general/mixture classes. The "light" classes are worthless when mastery of a skill makes so much more of an impact, and few crucial skills can be mastered by those classes. With those classes you run into a "Pickpocket Problem": like with the old pickpocket guild, you can do a decent variety of things but you are outclassed in specific tasks by characters in other classes that can do other things better. Got advanced hide? Well fuck you, three classes can master scan and you can never hide from them (and two of those classes are immensely popular with players, Ranger and Merchant).
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Post by psyxypher on Mar 23, 2020 13:32:57 GMT -5
Why Burglar and Pickpocket were different classes, I don't think I will ever understand.
Christ, how the hell were you supposed to play a pickpocket anyway?
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