vex
Clueless newb
Posts: 133
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Post by vex on Mar 23, 2020 17:31:12 GMT -5
Usually, on the corpse pile.
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Post by explayer on Mar 23, 2020 18:14:42 GMT -5
Why Burglar and Pickpocket were different classes, I don't think I will ever understand. Christ, how the hell were you supposed to play a pickpocket anyway? Most people didn't like pickpockets, but I found them interesting to play. A pickpocket/guard would have parry and shield use and a couple of weapon skills and could be a fair PvE fighter, with their perks like haggling and master cooking adding variety to play. They got a good boost to agility, and could potentially disarm an opponent by stealing their weapons before attacking. The plant command could be fun (e.g leaving a Kruth card as your mark you'd been there). I had one in Kurac and later another in the Byn. The main weakness I found in group play was their poor ride skill, but that could have been addressed by making a breed. Compared to miscreants, they were utter crap though, yes.
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nile
Clueless newb
Posts: 87
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Post by nile on Mar 23, 2020 20:33:47 GMT -5
Miscreants broke the game really. Apoc has the balance arm used to. Yes, assassins can OHK, so can rangers potentially, but you are fucked against a warrior. All comes down to who has the better strategy/tactics/planning really. Rather than one invisible class and one with ALL the combat skills jumbled into one big mess...like, I'm an enforcer who fights head to head for aaaaages but now I'm all sneaky and backstab people....uhh, ok.
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Post by psyxypher on Mar 23, 2020 22:44:04 GMT -5
Miscreants broke the game really. Apoc has the balance arm used to. Yes, assassins can OHK, so can rangers potentially, but you are fucked against a warrior. All comes down to who has the better strategy/tactics/planning really. Rather than one invisible class and one with ALL the combat skills jumbled into one big mess...like, I'm an enforcer who fights head to head for aaaaages but now I'm all sneaky and backstab people....uhh, ok. I wouldn't say that. They don't have all the same subguilds as Arm does. Though I'm pretty sure Assassin/Outrider would be stupidly broken. Pretty sure Outrider gets an agility boost.
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Post by lechuck on Mar 24, 2020 4:39:40 GMT -5
Honestly, I liked pickpocket, especially after they added latch/unlatch. It was underwhelming before that, granted, but with that feature in the game, it became a worthy class. Its only real shortcoming was the fact that pickpocket hide capped at 80 while assassin and burglar got 90. But then again, only rangers and merchants had 90 scan. Other than that, it was a cool niche class that was interesting in a time when the game had some actual class identity.
Pickpockets got parry and master scan. Back when non-mundane classes got none of these things, and only warriors started with parry while assassins and rangers had long grinds ahead of them to branch it, that was pretty nice. Pickpockets only needed to reach 30 in dual wield to branch parry while assassins needed 60 and rangers 75. Burglars were always kinda shit, even back before the new classes completely ruined the usefulness of apartments. Access to people's inventories and worn containers is a lot more interesting than access to their apartments. There was just something really cool and surprisingly useful about the ability to take almost anything someone was carrying. I've created or gained access to more plots through steal than any other skill. Well, back when people still carried important stuff, anyway.
I never understood why people called pickpockets useless without saying the same of burglars. What did burglars get? Assassins got high enough pick to open every apartment door in the game, including the expensive ones. And assassins could make the bird-bone picks, too. Master throw is extremely overrated, especially when you don't have top tier strength, and has never been a dependable way to poison people, which is why you almost never see anyone do that. Middling poison and backstab is useless. The lack of parry completely rules you out of the combat sphere. Burglars didn't even get scan. The only thing they had over pickpockets was 90 hide vs. 80. They paid for that by having little else worth caring about.
But then we got miscreants and everything went to shit. A class that's the best at every non-combat, non-crafting skill in the fucking game? Who came up with that?! It totally ruined criminal play, because of course every noncombat city character is going to be a miscreant. When every other cunt in the city has 90 in all the stealth, perception and criminal skills, including fucking poisoning because why not, it totally skews the way people play the game.
Noone uses apartments anymore because 75% of city classes get pick. Nobody carries anything worth stealing. Nobody talks about anything sensitive in public. Nobody dares to do anything that might put them in a compromising position if there should happen to be someone nearby with 90 hide/scan/listen/steal/pick/climb/poisoning/etc, because there probably is. Before the new classes, most people played rangers, warriors, mages and merchants. Not many played the rogue classes, so the odds of being exposed to one of them at any given time were relatively minor. Now there's a 50% chance that any given PC you come across is a full master ninjathief, and people have adjusted their playstyles accordingly, to the massive detriment of the game. Criminal roleplay has become a dead end, and the streets of Allanak are barren as people hole themselves up in clan compounds like there's a Zalanthan Coronavirus outbreak.
People got sick of finding their apartment door unlocked every day, of having every interesting item stolen from them, of being shadowed 24/7 if they were anyone worth caring about, and of the constant threat of poisons in a city where suddenly half the population is a master of its use. It's no coincidence that it's now, after two decades of poisons being the same, that staff has finally decided to do crack down on it. Not back when half the playerbase were rangers, because that's not where poisons were gamebreaking. You didn't meet unarmed noncombatants in the desert. You do in the city, and when half the playerbase is playing a city-based omegastealth class that masters poisoning and also gets advanced combat skills, suddenly it turns out to be an issue. Suddenly players start to stockpile peraine to such an extent that staff has to intervene. What does that say?
Brokkr, you're shit at game design, and your stubborn refusal to acknowledge code issues brought up on the GDB is actively doing damage to the game. Time and time again, every code-related concern voiced by the community is met with your bullshit. You lie to players or misrepresent the truth in order to make discussions go away instead of actually addressing these problems. You may put in a decent amount of work, but the work you do is often unbalanced, and your irrational defense of the changes you make is harming the game. You seem to take it personally whenever someone points out a problem with the code, and then you just feed them whatever official-sounding garbage you think will make that player doubt their own experiences just so you don't have to feel like your code needs to be revised. The game was better before the new classes and the magick subclasses.
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Post by psyxypher on Mar 24, 2020 13:40:32 GMT -5
God, reading this thread I'm tempted to make one showcasing my opinion of how I think classes and subclasses should work.
The only thing stopping me is that I'm not sure what thread it should go in.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2020 14:50:52 GMT -5
God, reading this thread I'm tempted to make one showcasing my opinion of how I think classes and subclasses should work. The only thing stopping me is that I'm not sure what thread it should go in. Ever thought of coding a mud?
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Post by psyxypher on Mar 24, 2020 17:24:25 GMT -5
God, reading this thread I'm tempted to make one showcasing my opinion of how I think classes and subclasses should work. The only thing stopping me is that I'm not sure what thread it should go in. Ever thought of coding a mud?
I never dared. I can't code. I could write down an entire design document, but I won't get anywhere with that.
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notnyr
staff puppet account
Posts: 11
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Post by notnyr on Mar 25, 2020 12:38:35 GMT -5
I never realized how unbalanced the miscreants were until I played with whoever was playing the PC Hawk. It was honestly the most egregious play, by a zero karma( I think) character in the game. I do not know what could really fix the game now beside short of converting back to the old class system. As pointed out above, Brokkr and a lot of the current staff will not acknowledge the issues or even admit that the new design is not good.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2020 15:07:35 GMT -5
Ever thought of coding a mud?
I never dared. I can't code. I could write down an entire design document, but I won't get anywhere with that. There is a large number of people with a "good idea" for a story who will never write. In parallel, I think we only have the ability to shame Arm staff or quit, because so few people will set up a mud to compete with them.
I really think the core problem here is that we are all jaded, experienced gamers. We know what we want. The only possible middle ground I see that is possible is to staff and build a game for inclusion of many player types. Otherwise, you get one or two who "win" and desperately try to shove out everyone else to preserve their perfect playground.
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Post by psyxypher on Mar 25, 2020 17:47:30 GMT -5
I never dared. I can't code. I could write down an entire design document, but I won't get anywhere with that. There is a large number of people with a "good idea" for a story who will never write. In parallel, I think we only have the ability to shame Arm staff or quit, because so few people will set up a mud to compete with them.
I really think the core problem here is that we are all jaded, experienced gamers. We know what we want. The only possible middle ground I see that is possible is to staff and build a game for inclusion of many player types. Otherwise, you get one or two who "win" and desperately try to shove out everyone else to preserve their perfect playground.
I wouldn't call myself jaded. Yet. Wish I was.
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Post by someguy on Dec 18, 2020 15:16:32 GMT -5
I was thinking of coming back until I read this thread.
Seems the game has changed a bit too much for my tastes in terms of classes.
That said, when I played Drazen the c elf Fence, there were two pickpockets I met (one in Tuluk and one later in Nak), that were game breakingly awesome at getting anything off anyone. One was so good, most players who had shit worth having, were paranoid. Pickpockets were the professional version of a subtle burglar.
I may slide back in now that I hear c elves finally are rocking.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,030
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Post by jkarr on Dec 18, 2020 17:24:29 GMT -5
I was thinking of coming back until I read this thread. Seems the game has changed a bit too much for my tastes in terms of classes. That said, when I played Drazen the c elf Fence, there were two pickpockets I met (one in Tuluk and one later in Nak), that were game breakingly awesome at getting anything off anyone. One was so good, most players who had shit worth having, were paranoid. Pickpockets were the professional version of a subtle burglar. I may slide back in now that I hear c elves finally are rocking. cant speak for that or say how it is now but i can say all the noise ive heard since it rolled out is ppl hate it when theyre not exploiting the fuck out of the one or two real broken ones if it was far enough back i htink i remember an elf that went between both places and didnt come off soft at all so that was prob u i think i remember hearing abt at least one of the pickpockets around that time if it was in the south but i cant remember if he was guild or not
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