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Post by shakes on Oct 4, 2019 13:34:56 GMT -5
From Draugr's reassuring reply on how Staff Complaints are actually resolved: I got shown a small snippet of some stuff from a complaint once that I would say verifies this. Plus I am inclined to trust what Draugr says more than some others. He strikes me as one of the good guys. I think all staff complaints should be public, but certainly you could redact certain pieces. I don't mean just public to the person who submitted them, but every staff complaint should be a clickable link for the playerbase to review. There could be an after-action report that comes out that leaves some of that out. Some people are still going to distrust that, but it's a step forward. It might read something like this; On X date a player submitted a complaint that a staff member loaded a bahamet in the Folley and murdered him. We investigated and discovered that it was not, in fact, a bahamet but instead an anakore and it was part of a documented plot ongoing with escaped arena creatures and Borsail. Four echoes were sent to the player that the anakore was coming, but they had been idle for 9 hours waiting on their mudsex partner. This complaint has been resolved. |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 4, 2019 14:15:42 GMT -5
From Draugr's reassuring reply on how Staff Complaints are actually resolved: I got shown a small snippet of some stuff from a complaint once that I would say verifies this. Plus I am inclined to trust what Draugr says more than some others. He strikes me as one of the good guys. I think all staff complaints should be public, but certainly you could redact certain pieces. I don't mean just public to the person who submitted them, but every staff complaint should be a clickable link for the playerbase to review. There could be an after-action report that comes out that leaves some of that out. Some people are still going to distrust that, but it's a step forward. It might read something like this; On X date a player submitted a complaint that a staff member loaded a bahamet in the Folley and murdered him. We investigated and discovered that it was not, in fact, a bahamet but instead an anakore and it was part of a documented plot ongoing with escaped arena creatures and Borsail. Four echoes were sent to the player that the anakore was coming, but they had been idle for 9 hours waiting on their mudsex partner. This complaint has been resolved. The fact that three staff complaints were resolved this week in less than 2 hours on average shows that there are several staff complaints where there is no in-depth discussion, only outright dismissal. The only reason staff complaints aren't publicized is because some get significantly less attention than others, and showing those to the playerbase would lead to embarrassment. Draugr is lying by omission here. |
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Post by shakes on Oct 4, 2019 14:25:26 GMT -5
I don't know about that. I'd need to see the details of the complaint.
For instance, don't you think you could resolve the example I posted in less than 2 hours?
Hey, did anyone here load an anakore? Yeah, it was part of my plot. Oh, okay. Did you know it ate a player? Yeah, he sat there afk for 7 hours. Not linkless, just afk. Ignored all my echoes and today was the scheduled time for the anakore attack. Alright. Too bad for them. RESOLVED.
I'd just need to see the complaint to know if 2 hours is good or bad. Some would certainly take longer, and there's also some theoretical complaints which couldn't be resolved at all. How long should those sit before someone closes them out?
For instance, a staff complaint comes in that storyteller Pendejo is sending player Goofy's location to Pendeko's Guild assassin buddies on Discord. No logs provided. No evidence provided. How could you possibly resolve that?
They CERTAINLY drop the ball on a lot of the complaints ... I agree. But I think they're probably NOT as bad as we generally presume them to be and if there was more transparency it might even work in their favor. We'd see that, "Oh look ... these WERE legit complaints."
Most people aren't going to do what I did and regurgitate giant logs on the Shadowboard. At the time I didn't give two shits about what they did to me ... but surprise ... they didn't do anything to me. When some friends convinced me to give Arm a second chance, I did, and I wasn't docked karma or banned. I've put in a few requests and I got decent responses back, not "You're a shit and we hate everything about you, no we're not giving you back your beetle that you lost in the crash. Eat shit and die, shadowboard scum."
So there seems to be a quiet acknowledgement that I'm going to go to my corner and play and they're going to go to their corner and play and we'll just leave each other be.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2019 14:30:10 GMT -5
It's also feasible that the complaints are about the same situation. So resolve one, resolve all.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 4, 2019 14:31:27 GMT -5
I don't know about that. I'd need to see the details of the complaint. For instance, don't you think you could resolve the example I posted in less than 2 hours? Hey, did anyone here load an anakore? Yeah, it was part of my plot. Oh, okay. Did you know it ate a player? Yeah, he sat there afk for 7 hours. Not linkless, just afk. Ignored all my echoes and today was the scheduled time for the anakore attack. Alright. Too bad for them. RESOLVED. I'd just need to see the complaint to know if 2 hours is good or bad. Some would certainly take longer, and there's also some theoretical complaints which couldn't be resolved at all. How long should those sit before someone closes them out? For instance, a staff complaint comes in that storyteller Pendejo is sending player Goofy's location to Pendeko's Guild assassin buddies on Discord. No logs provided. No evidence provided. How could you possibly resolve that? They CERTAINLY drop the ball on a lot of the complaints ... I agree. But I think they're probably NOT as bad as we generally presume them to be and if there was more transparency it might even work in their favor. We'd see that, "Oh look ... these WERE legit complaints." Most people aren't going to do what I did and regurgitate giant logs on the Shadowboard. At the time I didn't give two shits about what they did to me ... but surprise ... they didn't do anything to me. When some friends convinced me to give Arm a second chance, I did, and I wasn't docked karma or banned. I've put in a few requests and I got decent responses back, not "You're a shit and we hate everything about you, no we're not giving you back your beetle that you lost in the crash. Eat shit and die, shadowboard scum." So there seems to be a quiet acknowledgement that I'm going to go to my corner and play and they're going to go to their corner and play and we'll just leave each other be. To be clear, I would love to see staff complaints publicized. Unfortunately, staff already waved this away as somehow being too cruel to actually do, because... reasons? Right now, there is no accountability on staff beyond the fact that if staff fuck up enough, people will walk away from the game. It actually benefits them to release staff complaints publicly... provided they are actually getting the attention staff claim they're getting. |
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 4, 2019 14:36:06 GMT -5
It's also feasible that the complaints are about the same situation. So resolve one, resolve all. Supposing that the three requests were about the same thing, let's say one request was given full attention, and the others took no time to resolve all, then that one request got about 0.18 days' worth of attention, or 4.32 hours. Still embarrasingly low. |
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 4, 2019 14:50:55 GMT -5
I don't know about that. I'd need to see the details of the complaint. For instance, don't you think you could resolve the example I posted in less than 2 hours? Hey, did anyone here load an anakore? Yeah, it was part of my plot. Oh, okay. Did you know it ate a player? Yeah, he sat there afk for 7 hours. Not linkless, just afk. Ignored all my echoes and today was the scheduled time for the anakore attack. Alright. Too bad for them. RESOLVED. I'd just need to see the complaint to know if 2 hours is good or bad. Some would certainly take longer, and there's also some theoretical complaints which couldn't be resolved at all. How long should those sit before someone closes them out? For instance, a staff complaint comes in that storyteller Pendejo is sending player Goofy's location to Pendeko's Guild assassin buddies on Discord. No logs provided. No evidence provided. How could you possibly resolve that? They CERTAINLY drop the ball on a lot of the complaints ... I agree. But I think they're probably NOT as bad as we generally presume them to be and if there was more transparency it might even work in their favor. We'd see that, "Oh look ... these WERE legit complaints." Most people aren't going to do what I did and regurgitate giant logs on the Shadowboard. At the time I didn't give two shits about what they did to me ... but surprise ... they didn't do anything to me. When some friends convinced me to give Arm a second chance, I did, and I wasn't docked karma or banned. I've put in a few requests and I got decent responses back, not "You're a shit and we hate everything about you, no we're not giving you back your beetle that you lost in the crash. Eat shit and die, shadowboard scum." So there seems to be a quiet acknowledgement that I'm going to go to my corner and play and they're going to go to their corner and play and we'll just leave each other be. Is it possible to resolve certain staff complaints very quickly? Sure. Is it likely, when current staff members like Nessalin have a history of replying to complaints with one word: "Noted"? No, not really. Staff should have a "breathing period" to allow all voices on staff-side to be heard about a complaint, otherwise they are not fostering discussion of a complaint. What if some complaint looks easy to resolve, but a staff member who is asleep and won't be awake for another 8 hours, and won't be online until after work (another 16 hours), has something to add? That voice would go unheard and a complaint would be dismissed. |
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Post by shakes on Oct 4, 2019 19:32:57 GMT -5
Yeah, I will say that I've had a NUMBER of staff or player complaints that they closed rather too abruptly and I didn't get to have a back and forth that was needed for resolution. That lack of handling is what leads to blow-ups. People don't feel they're getting heard. Sometimes all it would take is 10 damn minutes of actual back and forth and everyone would walk away content and satisfied. But I also suppose that some people are just going to be unreasonable and they'd never be satisfied ever.
You could probably solve it with a checkbox in the form request for a staff complaint ... public resolution or not? Player's choice.
They scrub any plot details or character names or revealing info and just release all the pertinent info.
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 5, 2019 5:55:53 GMT -5
Yep, pretty much 100% agreed there, although I would argue staff complaint resolutions should be public by default. Here's why:
- Accountability for staff actions. Everyone knows why an action was taken or not taken.
- Deterrence. Staff learn what happens when you do X and are then less likely to do X.
- Assurance that punishments are meted out evenly. If one staff member calls a player a dick, and gets a demotion, and another staff member calls a player a dick, and nothing happens to them, players and staff will understandably have questions.
- Assurance that "victims" of a particular staff member feel safer. If a staff member has been repeatedly harassing people/killing players' PCs/whatever else, then public acknowledgement that the staff member is now dealt with will not only put players at ease, but encourage greater participation in the game and community.
There is literally no downside to publicizing staff complaint resolutions beyond the fact that many previous resolutions would embarrass staff. So let them start clean, and keep all past complaints private, only publicizing complaints going forward. That holds staff to a new standard, and puts the burden of proof that staff are well-behaved precisely where it belongs.
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Post by shakes on Oct 5, 2019 16:08:48 GMT -5
But ... let's be somewhat honest with ourselves.
The most egregious actions I've had done to me have been done by admins, not storytellers. There's no governing body above admin, I don't think. (And while these actions weren't numerous, they DID piss me off far beyond simply losing a character.)
I see two very large problems in staff-player relations right now.
1. You clearly have some staff running around thinking they are better than players. This is false on every front. I can point right now to about 10 better games out there than Armageddon that simply have no players. Why do they have no players? Rude and abrasive staff ran them all off. It's no fun being admin on a game with no players. I've been there.
2. Upper echelons of staff are very slow and too reluctant to publicly rein in an out-of-control storyteller. Right now it's just verbal abuse, but that leads to a lot of suspicion. This mek is on the wrong side of Nak. Did that storyteller I complained about load it here to kill me? Etc. Verbal abuse doesn't NECESSARILY equate to actual in-game abuse, but it's smoke to a potential fire.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Oct 5, 2019 16:58:42 GMT -5
But ... let's be somewhat honest with ourselves. The most egregious actions I've had done to me have been done by admins, not storytellers. There's no governing body above admin, I don't think. producer/ol |
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Post by shakes on Oct 5, 2019 17:33:34 GMT -5
Ah, thanks.
So let's pick on Draugr for a moment (because I think he's a decent guy and nobody is going to mistake this for something he would actually do) ...
Let's say I roll up a 18 year old girl with a pert bottom and jiggling in her mdesc, and 10 minutes out of chargen Draugr sees her ... loses control of himself ... and animates an NPC half-giant to subdue her, drag her out of the Gaj into an alley, and sodomize her without consent for the next 3 RL hours.
Naturally I file a staff complaint. "Hey, Draugr violated me in multiple ways!"
A producer then looks at this complaint, and when they can stop laughing, what happens? Draugr! Get over here. Did you really do these vile things?
Draugr replies, "Yea, but in my defense ... I was high on meth."
Producer says, "Dude. Knock that shit off. And get your teeth fixed."
I seriously, seriously doubt that a producer is going to throw an admin overboard for anything this side of forced sodomy (probably on multiple occurrences) ... or maybe using the word 'necker'.
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Post by shakes on Oct 5, 2019 17:37:32 GMT -5
Consider we live in a real world where famous news personalities can grab a coworker, lock them in their office, bend them over the desk and forcibly hip thrust them until they lose consciousness and NOT get fired.
And then think of the level of egregious offenses that would need to happen to you in a text game in order for someone to lose such a lofty position as 'admin'.
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Oct 5, 2019 18:37:35 GMT -5
its also prob saying something that someone whos been around as long as him and also been staff before is being gated at storyteller lvl below staffers who have been there a fraction of that time
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Post by punished ppurg on Oct 5, 2019 21:27:01 GMT -5
The biggest flaw with your wacky conspiracy is the thought that Draugr would animate something for 3 hours. Or any staffer for that matter.
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