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Post by lyse on Jul 25, 2019 10:00:01 GMT -5
I don’t think it can be done and that’s ok. I don’t think that’s what is needed anyway. It’s just time for something new. New doesn’t necessarily mean a whole new game, it could simply mean a new way in which things are handled.
I’m glad people are starting to wake up, that staff shouldn’t be blamed for Armageddon’s problems 100%. Players have to shoulder some of that blame too. A good hard look at things players do to fuck the game up has to be done. Oh yes....there will be blood.
The first thing that needs to be acknowledged is players and staff need each other for anything to get done. Armageddon is not a game where player agency is number one. It’s not coded that way, it’ll never be that way. You absolutely need staff to set up and implement whatever you’re trying to accomplish on any significant scale. Suggesting otherwise or even dreaming otherwise is delusional. Honestly, they’ve never been great at doing this even when things were good. They did whatever they wanted to, any player plots were pretty much secondary and only if they were interested or amused by what said player was doing. That’s just the way the game has worked, that’s the way all RPIs work. Anyone suggesting any real level of player agency should probably be playing a MUSH (oh the irony) because they’re all about player agency. For that system to work, there has to be a true dialogue between players and staff. There is a system in place for this, it just has to be used consistently.
I’m not ready to throw leaders under the bus either. Leadership in Arm is one of the least desirable positions in the game. Staff tells you no all the time. Everybody rushes to oppose you or belittle you for any mistake you make. People just...don’t want to do it. I’ve seen players try to start something, have someone who was in their clan store, come back as an enemy or rival...just because. Kind of shit is that? Arm had canceled culture before it was even a thing. While some staff do have a dialogue with leaders, it’s just not a consistent or guaranteed thing.
The culture of the game has to completely change. That’s what it would take.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jul 25, 2019 10:04:41 GMT -5
What’s the point of this post? Obviously some of us actively play and at least partially agree with this post. I’ve been actively playing for months and I totally agree with it. Of course perspective plays into everything. What is your present day criticism? Something that is based on facts not opinions. This thread is futile because it has no where to go. I'll ask a very simple question to anyone here, what do you want? If you cant answer that then there is no discussion its just a shouting contest. What do I want? When I played this game for over a decade, I wanted so much. I saw all of the blanks in Armageddon's writing and staff's efforts and instead of being skeptical, my imagination filled the blanks in. I played leadership roles and thought I made the game fun for others, then requested my account notes and saw the staff disliked that plots had swirled around my characters. They actively disliked the fact that my character was the only one running plots for a time, and thought my character's existence was the reason the play area was dead, even though I was doing everything I could to keep it alive. When a couple of my friends went on to join staff, I learned from their description of past IDB discussions that the staff conspired to deny my characters plot progress because they wanted to give specific other characters time to shine. As a player, I did nothing to stop those characters from doing anything - our characters were not rivals, we were even collaborating on plots. Yet for some reason, some staff wanted to give all of the focus to characters that weren't mine, simply because my character had been around a while and organized a few things. Eventually, I left the game, tired of putting in so much time for so little payoff. I still talk to several people who play and/or staff Armageddon. I know that very little of substance has changed. What I want now is to either make Armageddon a better game through honest criticism, and giving players the tools and knowledge to enjoy the game without being hobbled by other players and by staff; or, failing that, to convince people to walk away from Armageddon and play another game. The longer Armageddon continues on the same old path, the more time I spend convincing my friends to quit. There was a person I talked to who was putting in literally 16 hours a day on Armageddon, every single fucking day of their lives, and getting nothing out of it, that is now studying creative writing in a good university and is working on their first novel. I'm proud of that. Don't tell me that this discussion is futile. Criticism is not futile just because you suddenly like the game now.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Jul 25, 2019 10:09:38 GMT -5
So if I am reading your post correctly, you want people to quit the game? You never actually said what you want you gave a nice sob story about your characters plots.
I guess I'll ask again what do you want? If you can't spell that out in one-two sentences then I will absolutely continue to claim the futility of the forums and these discussions. I suppose you're just killing time but none of this is productive.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jul 25, 2019 10:14:05 GMT -5
I said what I wanted.
I'll put it in two sentences so it's simple for you to understand: Provide fair criticism of Armageddon based on my experiences, encourage others to discuss the criticism, see if Armageddon changes. If it doesn't, then convince people (the people I personally know and talk to on a regular basis) to do something else with their lives.
And fuck off about calling my post a "sob story". I don't want your pity. I was providing context, thinking you gave a shit about the discussion. Clearly you're just another sycophant for the game now.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Jul 25, 2019 10:14:19 GMT -5
Am I being hostile? I'm trying to decipher what the point of the discussion is. You have one side saying the game is terrible, the staff sucks, players suck. Then you have another side (the gdb) who don't claim these things. Who is right and who is wrong? Neither side actually.. the problem is that Arm staff never recognized these forums and addressed people here. What do you want? Nessalin to come over here and post apologies and ask you all to come back? I'm in the same boat as you jcarter, I don't particularly give a fuck about this discussion because I don't believe in it. If you aren't actively playing or communicating with staff then why obsess over the health of the game?
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jul 25, 2019 10:20:46 GMT -5
I don’t think it can be done and that’s ok. I don’t think that’s what is needed anyway. It’s just time for something new. New doesn’t necessarily mean a whole new game, it could simply mean a new way in which things are handled. I’m glad people are starting to wake up, that staff shouldn’t be blamed for Armageddon’s problems 100%. Players have to shoulder some of that blame too. A good hard look at things players do to fuck the game up has to be done. Oh yes....there will be blood. The first thing that needs to be acknowledged is players and staff need each other for anything to get done. Armageddon is not a game where player agency is number one. It’s not coded that way, it’ll never be that way. You absolutely need staff to set up and implement whatever you’re trying to accomplish on any significant scale. Suggesting otherwise or even dreaming otherwise is delusional. Honestly, they’ve never been great at doing this even when things were good. They did whatever they wanted to, any player plots were pretty much secondary and only if they were interested or amused by what said player was doing. That’s just the way the game has worked, that’s the way all RPIs work. Anyone suggesting any real level of player agency should probably be playing a MUSH (oh the irony) because they’re all about player agency. For that system to work, there has to be a true dialogue between players and staff. There is a system in place for this, it just has to be used consistently. I’m not ready to throw leaders under the bus either. Leadership in Arm is one of the least desirable positions in the game. Staff tells you no all the time. Everybody rushes to oppose you or belittle you for any mistake you make. People just...don’t want to do it. I’ve seen players try to start something, have someone who was in their clan store, come back as an enemy or rival...just because. Kind of shit is that? Arm had canceled culture before it was even a thing. While some staff do have a dialogue with leaders, it’s just not a consistent or guaranteed thing. The culture of the game has to completely change. That’s what it would take. I don't have much to add besides expressing agreement with the post. All RPIs work like Armageddon works, but RPIs leave its players wanting more, generally speaking. You're right, MUSHes provide more tools for player agency. When that's not desirable, RPIs absolutely work, but they do require staff-player cooperation to succeed. Leaders, as a concept, are fine. I played in leadership roles and I like to think I did alright. The main problem I have with them is that players don't get much of a chance to practice for leadership roles. You either suck or you don't. There are other games that facilitate plot leadership well because the vast majority of characters are in some position of power, and have different kinds resources at their disposal (lords-and-ladies RPs like Arx). I won't argue as to the merit of such games in comparison to Armageddon but it's hard to deny that such games give players skill at running plots in a multiplayer context.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Jul 25, 2019 10:22:01 GMT -5
Do something better with your time as well then? You're over here trying to act like you want to make Arm better, but it's completely fine. It's hitting 50 players peak, plenty of activity going on IC.
Oh I'm sorry did you deserve better? The staff didn't cater to your plots and decided to go with someone elses? Man that sucks. I could care fucking less. Maybe some others really care about how badly you were treated but not me. I come from a different time, a time when Halaster would use the slay command on me, or Bhagharva would consistently track down my PCs from chargen to kill them. The game is much better off now then it was then, that's all I have to say on this topic.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jul 25, 2019 10:24:00 GMT -5
Do something better with your time as well then? You're over here trying to act like you want to make Arm better, but it's completely fine. It's hitting 50 players peak, plenty of activity going on IC. Oh I'm sorry did you deserve better? The staff didn't cater to your plots and decided to go with someone elses? Man that sucks. I could care fucking less. Maybe some others really care about how badly you were treated but not me. I come from a different time, a time when Halaster would use the slay command on me, or Bhagharva would consistently track down my PCs from chargen to kill them. The game is much better off now then it was then, that's all I have to say on this topic. OK.
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Post by lyse on Jul 25, 2019 10:28:04 GMT -5
Delerak....are you on staff now?
It’s not very accurate to say this forum hasn’t produced a change in Arm or that staff hasn’t acknowledged this board. They most certainly have, the fact that the great prevaricator, I can’t remember his name right now, showed up says they’ve more than acknowledged this forum.
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Post by jcarter on Jul 25, 2019 10:53:42 GMT -5
Am I being hostile? I'm trying to decipher what the point of the discussion is. You have one side saying the game is terrible, the staff sucks, players suck. Then you have another side (the gdb) who don't claim these things. Who is right and who is wrong? Neither side actually.. the problem is that Arm staff never recognized these forums and addressed people here. What do you want? Nessalin to come over here and post apologies and ask you all to come back? I'm in the same boat as you jcarter, I don't particularly give a fuck about this discussion because I don't believe in it. If you aren't actively playing or communicating with staff then why obsess over the health of the game? It's a place for people to shoot the shit and gripe. There's no grand plan or demands for mud reparations. Asking what the purpose is is absurd -- there is none and never has been beyond a board where people could talk about whatever they want in regards to the game. Complaining about discussion existing on it is just silly, especially coming from you of all people.
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delerak
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Post by delerak on Jul 25, 2019 11:11:27 GMT -5
Not complaining about a discussion, I'm saying there is no discussion to be had here. The game is fine, the game doesn't need our help to fix these grand issues that are regularly spouted by several disgruntled ex-players that post here. I'm all for discussion, I just don't see the point of these threads popping up periodically and they produce nothing of value. With that I will bounce as there is nothing really left for me to say.
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my2sids
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Post by my2sids on Jul 25, 2019 11:40:25 GMT -5
As much as I have complained, I'll give props to the current storyline being run. I can see seven clans involved. Some pc leaders have shut their subordinates out of the information flow, but this isnt really a staff issue. Its been going at least five months, and I havent seen it yet involve a clan wipe or other heavy handed combat event.
I dont care if its a staff or pc run experience. Someone is doing it right.
A major problem I forgot to touch on, I've emphazied in your quote. Hopefully I'll be forgiven for making an RL economics comparison (I'm not here to argue if it works or not IRL), but the staff employ a "trickle-down" theory to their plots that just does not work for everyone in a game. PC leaders usually have no incentive to share plot information with subordinates, out of the fear that subordinates talk - not only ICly, but OOCly. You're right in identifying this particular problem as not a staff issue, because with the way the game is structured, it makes sense for a few PCs to have most of the cards. It just isn't conducive for a roleplaying game, unfortunately. If there are people being left out of the fun, despite all their effort to try and join in on the fun, the game is failing a portion of its players and needs to do better. Players have no incentive to stick around and help encourage a game's growth if they're not being involved. To pivot off this agreeable point... If I was to pinpoint some things which kill the fun for players, it is leaders who:1.) Jump straight to kill. This has been discussed before but it mostly just destroys any semblance of a participatory conflict scheme. The old-fashioned "pretend like we're friends with no indication that there is a problem then lock room kill you" is a trope for a reason. It's silly. It's boring. It's about "winning" on a meta level more than roleplaying a believable character. Bunch of sociopaths running around, really.2.) Do not share information with subordinates. Why are they logging in? To fetch you stuff and boring details at the bar? Zzzz. 3.) Try to play a political mastermind. I'm a serial leader player and I see it quite often that other leaders simply refuse to put themselves in harm's way, risk anything by talking shit, or reveal emotion/intention. It's silly and inspires a bunch of "back room politics" situations that only include 3 other leader PCs who will gang up on the victim.
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Post by pinkerdlu on Jul 25, 2019 11:43:45 GMT -5
Not complaining about a discussion, I'm saying there is no discussion to be had here. The game is fine, the game doesn't need our help to fix these grand issues that are regularly spouted by several disgruntled ex-players that post here. I'm all for discussion, I just don't see the point of these threads popping up periodically and they produce nothing of value. With that I will bounce as there is nothing really left for me to say. Maybe you should go help the wife with your newborn instead of wantonly defending (or even playing) the MUD that you’re suddenly in-love with? The MUD that apparently deserves no criticism or random discussion that’s less than positive (despite you contributing to such discussion for YEARS, regardless of whether you were playing or not)? Fuck man, you’ve turned into the worst of hypocrites.
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my2sids
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Post by my2sids on Jul 25, 2019 11:55:10 GMT -5
Whoa dude.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jul 25, 2019 12:19:16 GMT -5
A major problem I forgot to touch on, I've emphazied in your quote. Hopefully I'll be forgiven for making an RL economics comparison (I'm not here to argue if it works or not IRL), but the staff employ a "trickle-down" theory to their plots that just does not work for everyone in a game. PC leaders usually have no incentive to share plot information with subordinates, out of the fear that subordinates talk - not only ICly, but OOCly. You're right in identifying this particular problem as not a staff issue, because with the way the game is structured, it makes sense for a few PCs to have most of the cards. It just isn't conducive for a roleplaying game, unfortunately. If there are people being left out of the fun, despite all their effort to try and join in on the fun, the game is failing a portion of its players and needs to do better. Players have no incentive to stick around and help encourage a game's growth if they're not being involved. To pivot off this agreeable point... If I was to pinpoint some things which kill the fun for players, it is leaders who:1.) Jump straight to kill. This has been discussed before but it mostly just destroys any semblance of a participatory conflict scheme. The old-fashioned "pretend like we're friends with no indication that there is a problem then lock room kill you" is a trope for a reason. It's silly. It's boring. It's about "winning" on a meta level more than roleplaying a believable character. Bunch of sociopaths running around, really.2.) Do not share information with subordinates. Why are they logging in? To fetch you stuff and boring details at the bar? Zzzz. 3.) Try to play a political mastermind. I'm a serial leader player and I see it quite often that other leaders simply refuse to put themselves in harm's way, risk anything by talking shit, or reveal emotion/intention. It's silly and inspires a bunch of "back room politics" situations that only include 3 other leader PCs who will gang up on the victim.Great set of points. Just to add a bit of commentary: Point #1: I hate to mention the same game over and over by way of comparison, but Arx has very tightly-controlled player-killing. Staff need to approve of plots that are designed to kill characters and it's only allowed as a last resort, as a sort of crescendo to long-running conflict between two or more parties. Now, I know a rule like that simply won't work in Armageddon: not only would players reject such a suggestion but the Diku codebase simply isn't designed for putting holds on killing things. And I wouldn't even think that I'd bring such a rule to the game if I could. But the player culture ought to consider adopting a voluntary version of that rule, because you're right. Death destroys conflict. Point #2: Exactly. Point #3: Absolutely agreed. The few leaders I played were vulnerable and had easily defined weaknesses. They were corrupt, and both open and vulnerable to acts like blackmail and extortion. But competition in leadership circles usually doesn't revolve in that direction. The dynamic is usually around maintaining stability. I would argue that if you do play leaders that put themselves in harm's away, talk shit, and reveal emotion/intention, you will likely be branded as an "unpredictable wild card" and targeted first.
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