Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 12:07:50 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 12:07:50 GMT -5
So, Armageddon has a notoriously unbalanced and random stat system. Two characters of identical traits can come out with one's aggregate stats twice that of the other. Sometimes you'll roll good-avg-b.avg-a.avg and other times you'll roll excep-v.good-good-e.good. The difference between average and exceptional strength is something like double damage if not more while other physical stats have nowhere near the same importance. Non-combat characters have virtually no use for any stats besides wisdom.
What do you think of this fucked-up stat system? It's widely known how it causes people to chain-suicide characters to get a good roll, and how luck with the dice can determine whether your character is a beast or mediocre. What do you consider stats worth playing? What do you do when you get a garbage roll?
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Kronibas 2.0
Displaced Tuluki
this account will go inactive once I hit 420 posts
Posts: 389
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 12:32:01 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by Kronibas 2.0 on Jan 11, 2015 12:32:01 GMT -5
The difference between exceptional strength and good strength is game breaking. It literally changes the entire dynamic of your character. Plus, winning is fun. It depends on the race, but anything less than exceptional strength on a human hinders plots and whatnot until you're able to finish that grind.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 12:35:32 GMT -5
The difference between exceptional strength and good strength is game breaking. It literally changes the entire dynamic of your character. Plus, winning is fun. Yeah, it really does. GDB sheep will claim that stats are perfectly fine and there's nothing wrong with playing a crappy rolled character. I've heard the old apologist song and dance a hundred times. "Your character will be prefectly fine if you just work hard. My worst statted PCs are always my best characters. Strength doesn't matter once your skills are high." But the fact of the matter is that a fighter with good strength will be hindered forever, never able to consistently do extreme damage, while one with exceptional strength can do it almost from the start.
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dcdc
Shartist
Posts: 539
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 13:50:38 GMT -5
Post by dcdc on Jan 11, 2015 13:50:38 GMT -5
I hate the GDB attitude but...
Some rolls don't require AMAZING stats to play.
Yes some rolls specially ones that center around coded combat require amazing stats. While some more social focus'ed rolls don't.
I have a feeling those who parrot the "Stats don't matter role play does" song either don't play combat characters or lying through their teeth while driving another mediocore stat rolled character over the shield wall... err I mean store, of course they store!
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 13:56:36 GMT -5
Post by Jeshin on Jan 11, 2015 13:56:36 GMT -5
Bad stat rolls are relative to the goals of the character. Want to be a ranger, you need at least good strength but more important you better have higher than good agility or you may as well toss out your bow and wilderness hide/sneak and your hope of compensating for subpar str with more head/neck hits.
Probably the biggest issue in the stat weighting of agility vs strength is that strength apparently helps determine hit location too... Like I've had someone with shit agility but high strength land head and neck hits endlessly. If it is the case that strength has a significant factor in hit location that it is indeed the god stat but if it's primarily agility then you can get away with high agility and medicore strength.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 14:14:00 GMT -5
Post by delerak on Jan 11, 2015 14:14:00 GMT -5
Have killed stat monsters with my shitty stat rangers. They don't matter as much as you think once you have poisons, max archery/throw etc. If you're cunning in a pk situation you will win.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 14:25:13 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 14:25:13 GMT -5
Have killed stat monsters with my shitty stat rangers. They don't matter as much as you think once you have poisons, max archery/throw etc. If you're cunning in a pk situation you will win. Completely anecdotal and worthless statement. It's not as if characters with high stats are prevented from using those things. I'm disappointed to see you of all people embrace the GDB reasoning of "something isn't an advantage if you just have all these other advantages to cancel it out and assuming they do none of that." Stats are a huge factor in combat, and characters with amazing stats are much more likely to survive long enough and to be able to safely do the things that grant you all those other advantages. In other words, a ranger with godlike stats is more likely to be able to obtain poisons, max archery, and so on. You sound like the GDB sycophants right now.
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 14:36:24 GMT -5
Post by lurklord on Jan 11, 2015 14:36:24 GMT -5
Well, what would you people suggest as an alternative to random stat rolls? That every race has the same stats?
It's by no means a perfect system. But it's the only one that ensures that everyone isn't running around with exceptional everything.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 14:51:43 GMT -5
Post by delerak on Jan 11, 2015 14:51:43 GMT -5
Of course its nice to have AI strength, exceptional agility. The solution is simple spice up before pkilling, it's how I killed many long lived warriors with my average statted ranger.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 14:52:51 GMT -5
Post by delerak on Jan 11, 2015 14:52:51 GMT -5
Also I'm not embracing shit from the GDB, I'm relaying to you what I've been able to do with shit stats. My 50 day ranger had average strength, but he did have eg agility so I guess they werent "shit" the agility was nice.
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 14:55:47 GMT -5
Post by lyse on Jan 11, 2015 14:55:47 GMT -5
So, Armageddon has a notoriously unbalanced and random stat system. Two characters of identical traits can come out with one's aggregate stats twice that of the other. Sometimes you'll roll good-avg-b.avg-a.avg and other times you'll roll excep-v.good-good-e.good. The difference between average and exceptional strength is something like double damage if not more while other physical stats have nowhere near the same importance. Non-combat characters have virtually no use for any stats besides wisdom. What do you think of this fucked-up stat system? It's widely known how it causes people to chain-suicide characters to get a good roll, and how luck with the dice can determine whether your character is a beast or mediocre. What do you consider stats worth playing? What do you do when you get a garbage roll? I like that you can prioritize stats now, that helps but having had a character with absolutely the worst possible stats imaginable and rolling with it, I can honestly say it sucks in a meta way. You aren't going to be very respected, because a day old character can whoop your ass. Let's face it, a lot hinges on how you fight, whether or not you can kill the tembo or whatever alone etc. It doesn't matter how well you RP...you're basically a flavor character if your stats aren't good. You aren't promotable...because an average mob can kill you, you fail at the most random stuff. It's sort of like the meta-way people stopped letting elves into the Byn for a while. There's real no IG reason for it, just that people don't wanna stop every 15 rooms for your ass. That's why I don't take the GDB responses seriously on this either or their "the game should be made harder" you can prioritize strength and agility last and you've instantly made the game harder. I agree with RGS, people want to win and in a lot of ways the game is set up for you to win. When you can't codedly win, it's a problem for most people. Honestly, I get the suicides, because nobody really will bother with you once they figure out you have shitty stats. Conversely, everybody loves you once they figure out you have beastly stats. I wouldn't suicide, but I'd know my character is a flavor character and playing those can be fun too. But that's what happens when so much emphasis is on combat in the game with little else outside of it codedly. I don't think it's really fixable, you kind of have to live with the fact that every character you get just isn't going to be superman, but at the same time staff has to realize playing a character that just sucks at life in general isn't fun for long either.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 15:36:23 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 15:36:23 GMT -5
Crucially, it's set up for you to win if you do the wrong thing (suicide stathunting) and punishes you harshly for not doing so because you'll be competing, as much as one competes in the mundane world on Armageddon, with a playerbase where lots of people do that. Also, the worst thing really is how random it is and not the product of diligence or merit. You simply get lucky or you don't, and you can choose to exploit the game in order to help yourself if you want to risk the ire of the staff. I hate the randomness, I hate that a dice roll determines whether your character's potential is below average or world class.
It's not as though that's the only possible alternative, nor one anyone would want. Something as simple as a fixed total pool of stat points, so that if you roll really high strength, you can't also have great agility, endurance and wisdom -- or, with a low roll, will have correspondingly higher scores elsewhere. Or an actual point distribution system so people can choose builds and the game could actually have realistic combatants where players choose the direction of their character and what they can do. SoI has a good system where you choose the order, you have a fixed total pool, and then there's minor random variations so you don't get to decide the exact number for each but will know vaguely how they turn out. People almost never suicided over stats on SoI.
It's just bizarre that we have a game where you carefully design every aspect of your character, down to choosing their height and where their parents grew up, but their stats just come out almost completely random.
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dcdc
Shartist
Posts: 539
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Post by dcdc on Jan 11, 2015 16:06:21 GMT -5
I wish honestly, that stats could increase over time like skills. Seems silly to me, characters who can spend IC years lifting heavy shit, fighting, and run all over the known never seems to have their athletics improve.
Granted this only encourages some IC goofyness but no more than the silly shit everyone has to do for skill increases.
Yes I know age increases some stats, but that's not the same.
I think that's preferable to "random everything" or "buying pool" because in the end people will always follow the meta builds with very little deviations. At lest with stats increasing like skills over time. Your characters time alive will reflect the actual actions you took in game, as oppose to "lucky dice roll".
Carrying heavy shit? Doing physical labor? Chance to increase strength. Stretching? Using range weapons? using skills that require dexterity? Chance to increase agility. Running? Long sparring sessions? Any form of athletics? Surviving grievous injuries? Chance to increase endurance. Wisdom only comes with age, or maybe spell casting for the karma players gives a chance to increase wisdom.
That way all day 0 characters can start with "average" stats (maybe give or take a random roll) and its up to a player from there, to get the stats they want by actually surviving.
Most likely impossible given the code, but its nice to dream.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 16:33:51 GMT -5
Post by Jeshin on Jan 11, 2015 16:33:51 GMT -5
The only logical way to handle stats in an 'mmo' scenario (more than an individual tabletop group) is pointbuy. Even tabletop games often have pointbuy mechanics because randomization is fun but not when you have a specific concept in mind. By having pointbuy you eliminate the lucky 3 exceptional stat rolling warrior from the equation. When I was building out my concept for a MUD I actually determined that everyone would more or less have the same physical abilities and that you could train skills to gain physical abilities outside the norm. Thus people who wanted to be stronger than normal could be stronger than normal but it wasn't purely a lucky roll mechanic.
Edit - Or to phrase it simply, random stat rolls are good for small groups often similar to tabletop groups. In a larger game sense the randomization becomes a detriment to gameplay and eventually players will just game the random rolls anyway.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Stats
Jan 11, 2015 16:36:56 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2015 16:36:56 GMT -5
I wish honestly, that stats could increase over time like skills. Seems silly to me, characters who can spend IC years lifting heavy shit, fighting, and run all over the known never seems to have their athletics improve. Granted this only encourages some IC goofyness but no more than the silly shit everyone has to do for skill increases. Yes I know age increases some stats, but that's not the same. I think that's preferable to "random everything" or "buying pool" because in the end people will always follow the meta builds with very little deviations. At lest with stats increasing like skills over time. Your characters time alive will reflect the actual actions you took in game, as oppose to "lucky dice roll". Carrying heavy shit? Doing physical labor? Chance to increase strength. Stretching? Using range weapons? using skills that require dexterity? Chance to increase agility. Running? Long sparring sessions? Any form of athletics? Surviving grievous injuries? Chance to increase endurance. Wisdom only comes with age, or maybe spell casting for the karma players gives a chance to increase wisdom. That way all day 0 characters can start with "average" stats (maybe give or take a random roll) and its up to a player from there, to get the stats they want by actually surviving. Most likely impossible given the code, but its nice to dream. I'd like a system like that but it would change some player behavior away from social interactions, unless interactions happened during "stat-up" activities. I highly doubt a change of this type would be made in Arm.
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