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Post by chaosisaladder on Jan 5, 2015 18:03:08 GMT -5
So, as I understand it, and it is a VERY limited understanding, the damage you deal to an opponent is based on your strength, the damage of the weapon and the location you hit. Accuracy with said weapon is based on strength, and your piercing, bludgeoning and slashing skill. How does the two-handed skill influence this? Accuracy? Damage buff? What about shield use, does that just increase the chance you block a blow on the shield?
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Post by sirra on Jan 5, 2015 18:18:38 GMT -5
It's more complicated than that.
Skill, Offense rating, and your hidden stats for race/creature specific kills all factor into damage as well. And this is all measured against your opponent's.
A very experienced human warrior can hit like a mul.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Jan 5, 2015 19:28:33 GMT -5
Also, as far as different fighting styles go....
Two-handed offers a strength buff as it skills up, and makes it harder for someone to disarm you. I believe it increases attack speed as it skills up as well, which mainly offsets how slowly you attack with it at low skill levels.
Shield use allows you to block in addition to parry, adding a second layer of defense.
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Post by mekillot on Apr 25, 2015 23:19:15 GMT -5
All 3 weapon styles increase your chance to parry. By a flat amount as far as I can tell.
Dual wielding gives you a secondary attack. The skill itself is basically the "weapon skill" for whatever is in your off-hand, so long as the object is a weapon. This secondary attack has a flat penalty attached to it. In both damage and accuracy.
Two-handed gives a bonus to disarm, and attacks faster then your main-hand normally does. The skill itself gives you a bigger damage bonus, based from your strength score, starting at an extra 50% bonus.
Shield-use gives you a percent based chance to block an attack that gets past your defense+parry score. It can also give you a bonus to your shield-use, if you hold the shield in your main-hand.
Edit:two-handed also gives a accuracy bonus. This is the bane of skilling up two-handed advance weapons
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Post by mekillot on Apr 25, 2015 23:42:16 GMT -5
Protips Dual-wielding best scales with higher agility and fast attacking weapons. The second attack's speed is entirely based off your regular main-hand attack speed. However, it's biggest flaw is against high-armor targets. Since the damage is split between two attacks armor gets to apply it's damage reduction twice. It's second biggest flaw is that the second attack has an accuracy penalty. DW is best used against weaker opponents. It has the best dps, but you must overcome the flaws first.
Two-handed best scales with higher strength. Since the dmg bonus is based off the user's strength score. The biggest flaw with two-handed is that it gets really difficult to raise. Like with the high-end of weapon skills you end up doing silly things to max it out. Two-handed is best used when you don't outskill the opponent, and don't need to use a shield.
Shield-use gets a skill bonus from agility, and a high strength will let you use the better shields in the game. Shield-use raises WAY faster then the other two styles. The biggest flaw with shield-use is that you will be more vulnerable to disarm then the other two fighting styles. Being hit with the 'unarmed' flag in mid-combat is -really- bad. Shield-use is best used where you won't be disarmed, need to survive, and or don't need to quickly kill something.
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Post by sirra on Apr 26, 2015 14:52:39 GMT -5
Strength has a role in determining accuracy, and it's by the 50% strength boost that two-handed increases your seeming accuracy. Two-handed is also supposed to help you swing faster. I don't think it applies a bonus to disarm, so much as a penalty to those that try to disarm you, as well.
That's how I've always interpreted it, anyways. Otherwise, good stuff, Mek.
(It also feels like two-handed increases Defense, because I do dodge a lot more when two-handed wielding stuff than when dual-wielding)
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Post by mekillot on Apr 26, 2015 18:09:56 GMT -5
I'd agree with the accuracy scaling with the skill, due to the str bonus being amped. It does swing faster. I don't think the code is 'robust' enough to split a skill bonus with disarm as defense only or offensive only. I had a for sure answer to this in my head years ago, but I could be wrong. I can't say I've ever noticed a defense bonus.
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Post by sirra on Apr 26, 2015 19:19:03 GMT -5
I'd agree with the accuracy scaling with the skill, due to the str bonus being amped. It does swing faster. I don't think the code is 'robust' enough to split a skill bonus with disarm as defense only or offensive only. I had a for sure answer to this in my head years ago, but I could be wrong. I can't say I've ever noticed a defense bonus. I never used to notice it either, until I had a character who trained like a dozen people from novice to master in their weapon skills. Over the course of hundreds and hundreds of sparring matches, it became extremely obvious that two-handed was giving more dodges. There became very reliably inflection points where I could not dodge them anymore while dual wielding, but would start dodging them again when I went to two-handed. This character did have AI agility, so I reckon certain things were more exaggerated for him. He also had the Defense you'd expect of any ranger that lived long enough to branch parry. It's hard to make sense of most combat mechanics, until two people are nearly maxed out, and even the littlest things can decide a fight. That's how I realized what a huge advantage it was to attack an opponent with a weapon skill they weren't trained in. I would seriously rather have all 4 at journeyman rather than one at master and the rest novice.
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Post by julio on Apr 27, 2015 2:02:49 GMT -5
I'd agree with the accuracy scaling with the skill, due to the str bonus being amped. It does swing faster. I don't think the code is 'robust' enough to split a skill bonus with disarm as defense only or offensive only. I had a for sure answer to this in my head years ago, but I could be wrong. I can't say I've ever noticed a defense bonus. I never used to notice it either, until I had a character who trained like a dozen people from novice to master in their weapon skills. Over the course of hundreds and hundreds of sparring matches, it became extremely obvious that two-handed was giving more dodges. There became very reliably inflection points where I could not dodge them anymore while dual wielding, but would start dodging them again when I went to two-handed. This character did have AI agility, so I reckon certain things were more exaggerated for him. He also had the Defense you'd expect of any ranger that lived long enough to branch parry. It's hard to make sense of most combat mechanics, until two people are nearly maxed out, and even the littlest things can decide a fight. That's how I realized what a huge advantage it was to attack an opponent with a weapon skill they weren't trained in. I would seriously rather have all 4 at journeyman rather than one at master and the rest novice. Will you PM me on how you trained a dozen people from novice to master in weapon skills?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 4:15:27 GMT -5
You just need to spar a lot and have a character with high enough skills that people can stand there and swing at him all day. The key to training weapon skills is to have your attacks get dodged.
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mesuinu
staff puppet account
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Post by mesuinu on Apr 27, 2015 4:22:41 GMT -5
Did they train to master level using sparring weapons?
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Post by sirra on Apr 27, 2015 8:08:56 GMT -5
I never used to notice it either, until I had a character who trained like a dozen people from novice to master in their weapon skills. Will you PM me on how you trained a dozen people from novice to master in weapon skills? I'll tell you straight out, because it shouldn't be a mystery. The number one way to get trained up in weapon skills, in Armageddon, is to have an instructor who is vastly better than you, and who wants you to master those skills.If I was your typical jerk-off sergeant, I would have just ripped em apart while holding a sparring weapon in my left hand, or whatever. That's what you get in most clans. It makes me seem badass, but doesn't help them (beyond raising their parry/shield use, I guess). But I would actually RP with them, and stand there disengaged, emoting slipping or ducking away and offering pointers, while they repeatedly whiffed at me. Once I thought they had enough dodges, I'd attack them, and it'd be over in a few seconds. I also made all of them practice unarmed combat in the sparring circle. This worked of course, because I had a character with an extremely high Defense. Ultimately, I doubt the vast majority of people will ever be in a situation and find themselves that fortunate (i.e, an IC leader and instructor who can really push them past apprentice/journeyman and turn them into a beast without ever having to twink on a single mob). But if you can get to that point, you might just be the character that does it for others, someday. Did they train to master level using sparring weapons? I saw a warrior branch an advanced weapon while sparring with me using a sparring weapon. He then proceeded to train his advanced weapon on me. I've always been curious how the sparring weapon rumors got circulated, too. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that most sparring clans plateau at the Apprentice/Journeyman stage naturally, because a lot of them are warriors with shit Defense, that can only parry or shield block. You need dodges to raise a weapon skill, and you simply don't dodge weapon skills at Journeyman above, unless your Defense is high. Armageddon's stupid code means that it's stupidly hard for warriors to raise their Defense unless they do stupidly twinky things (like fight without shield or a weapon out). It is extremely telling that my best instructor character was a ranger, not a warrior, whose Defense gain is not similarly hampered until they branch parry. If you ever come across a ranger PC in game that's been around long enough to branch parry, and if they have a nice and high agility (mine had AI), then you've found a perfect sparring partner... EDIT: Also, this was back before skills had obvious progress indicators. I considered someone a 'master', back then, when they either branched parry as a ranger, or branched an advanced weapon skill as a warrior. But I also trained two assassins for whom there were no real measurement beyond my personal instinct for such things.
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mesuinu
staff puppet account
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Post by mesuinu on Apr 27, 2015 8:32:43 GMT -5
That's good to know! How would you go about raising your base defense as a warrior? Barehand fighting?
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Post by sirra on Apr 27, 2015 8:40:14 GMT -5
That's good to know! How would you go about raising your base defense as a warrior? Barehand fighting? It's tough. Some staff understand the conundrum, and a surprising number of staff do not know anything about the mechanics of their own game. They'd see you letting something hit you without a weapon out, and just jump to some kind of weird conclusion. It should be no crime to want to increase your ability to dodge over that of a day one character. Especially when any NPC warrior ever loaded into the game in an RPT is going to have a much higher off/def than you. So I hesitate to give people advice that might result in them getting too much flak. If they're playing and enjoying the game, my ultimate hope for them is to experience every role they want to or can before they inevitably come to the wrong staffer's attention at the wrong time. In that sense, your best bet is to become so obnoxiously lethal with a weapon in your hand, that when sparring other people, you have to do it the safe way and fight without sword or shield, against their weapon, in order for it to be fair. Gives a good excuse for bashing, kicking and disarming too. That's how most ancient, famous warriors managed it. A few of them did it without realizing it. Obviously, show up for unarmed fighting every chance you get. It's hilarious how many people in the Byn don't realize that unarmed fighting day is the best day of the week!
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