mike
staff puppet account
Posts: 24
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GEAS
Jul 10, 2023 1:31:02 GMT -5
Post by mike on Jul 10, 2023 1:31:02 GMT -5
I found and have been involved with Geas Mud (Geas.de). Based in Germany but conducted in English.
Very well constructed world in many aspects, along with some important frustrations. Lots of realism, code very reliable, but fussy. Very little room for variation: one must know the exact syntax to make things happen, and possibly because English isn't the first language of some of the designers, it sometimes seems a bit awkward. For example, want to feed your horse an apple? "feed <mount> with apple" is the only syntax that works. But some amazing day/night realism, rivers freeze in winter, very elaborate magic system, and extremely complex combat, but with all this realism there are some other frustrations. For example every Friday Morning (German Time) the system reboots, and most any object not on your person, or in a "locker" or a "chest" will be deleted, as well as a wide variety of things that are in there, and then you find this or that is codedly forbidden from being put into one of these "safe" locations. So every Thursday afternoon my "game time" is typically committed to checking inventories and selling things I wish I could keep, just so I can get to the point where my character can just barely carry everything, and I can log off, survive the purge, and play for another week. In 1985 maybe the cost of server memory demanded such austerities, but that's hardly the case today.
Like so many muds, things like web pages are not kept up-to-date, and theirs still features an almost naked woman (or 12-year-girl?) in a loincloth. But even with all these down sides, there is so much stuff for an explorer like me to do and test and look into. Even if the "world" is really not that huge, it is very well designed and still surprises after many months of play. It seems to have about half a dozen dedicated players (many playing multiple characters) that are not as helpful to new arrivals as one would hope.
Crafting system is not too elaborate. Players really are shuffled into one of some limited options: good/neutral/evil and warrior/priest/mage. There isn't a lot of room codedly or in the game culture to do much else.
I'm often frustrated with elaborate and secretive "breakers" and limitations on coded character growth. You can set a goal for your character and find your progress suddenly blocked because of some hidden threshold or "level" being reached, even while they insist their game is "level-less."
While I am frustrated with game on occasion, there are several aspects that I would claim are the best I've seen in a MUD as well.
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mike
staff puppet account
Posts: 24
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GEAS
Dec 11, 2023 0:36:13 GMT -5
Post by mike on Dec 11, 2023 0:36:13 GMT -5
First thing I want to do is thank Jcarter for keeping this site up. We all need an independent forum to keep MUD staff honest, and this forum does a great job.
Second, I want to take a bit of time to expose some misleading aspects of GEAS' webpage (linked above).
GEAS makes a big effort to advertise itself as a "level-less" playing system. My experience with the game strongly-- definitively-- makes clear to me that such is not the case. Now that being said, GEAS is still a fun game and I intend on continuing to play there, and in and of itself, whether or not the game is indeed level-less really isn't the point. It is that the staff are deceptive about it. Of course games are fun in part because they have puzzles and secrets that players can try to tackle and solve, and not disclosing these secrets is a quite reasonable policy decision, but actually deceiving players about the basic nature of a game's mechanics is (a) unnecessary, (b) erodes trust between players and staff, and (c) allows the players who are told, or figure out the truth of how the game actually works an advantage over other players, and if those players tend to be abusive, they are motivated to keep up the lie. So with all that in mind, I'm going to explain as best I can the details of the leveling process in the GEAS code, having experienced it for several months. I am not staff, ex-staff, or anyone with access to the code. Einstein once described physics as trying to explain the inner mechanics of a pocket watch, when all you can observe is it external functioning, and are not allowed to open it up and inspect the works. That is quite similar to my efforts to understand how leveling works at GEAS.
Characters at GEAS all have a set of basic stats: Str(ength), Agi(lity), Dex(terity), Con(stitution), Int(elligence), Wis(dom), and Dis(cipline).
Beginners at GEAS have all their skills at zero (with a few exceptions based on race) and their stats (listed above) set at some (low) number. Let's say ten for the basis of this discussion. Each skill is associated with a stat or two. A new language skill with the INT stat, (say); sword with STR and AGI, etc. When a character uses the skill there is a chance they can improve it. Improvements come one at a time. When an improvement happens (and possibly to some lesser extent even when it doesn't) there is also a (far lesser) chance that the LEVEL of the Stat(s) associated with that skill also improves.
Skill improvements are allowed and are rather likely when they are below the associated stat level. So new players get showered with skill improvements, and then suddenly the skill hits the max, and the skill improvements stop. But if they keep using the skill they can slowly get the associated stat up a bit and suddenly they will get a skill improvement or two until they hit the max again. So, starting with my example number of ten above, the new player exercises skills and as they do the stat level slowly goes up, but because it rises so much slower, the skills eventually "catch up" with their associated skill level and improvement stop rather suddenly (around 20 or 30).
Players who believe the lie that the game is "level-less" might first presume they've hit a stretch of bad luck, then at some point-- after a lot of player investment-- decide something is just wrong with the code, or their play. They ask at the various forums what could be wrong, but don't get straight answers "just work harder" or "progress can be slow here". Some just give up the game.
The game also has quests and exploration points, and players have the ability to set up their future distribution between the different stats to a great degree as they acquire those "bonus" points. Those quest and exploration points also help them "level up" their basic stats, allowing for the associated skills to improve again-- for a brief spurt.
Players who understand this system have a great advantage over the players who take staff advertisements of "level-less" at face value. And some players deliberately deceive newer players on the forums/discord to maintain this advantage.
In many of the most basic early MUDs, and tabletop games, characters has just one 'level' and 'leveling up' opened up to them new powers across the board. GEAS has just created a fractured leveling system of seven channels (or eight if one includes magic skills). The leveling system is more nuanced, but GEAS is by no means 'level-less', as it claims so prominently on its website and other locations like mud listing sites.
GEAS also claims to be 'class-less' and sorting that out is more complex. They have a variety of code restrictions that make the game weakly 'classed'. For example, players are codedly restricted to one main guild along with a couple more minor guilds. Characters of some races are codedly forbidden to join certain guilds. In theory any character can gain the skills of any (main) guild, and then leave to acquire the skills of another, or clandestinely learn forbidden skills from a rouge member of another guild, but teaching is codedly limited to those with very high skill levels, and player characters are strongly encouraged to enforce rules forbidding cross-learning as well, so I would contend that in practice GEAS-- through both code and in-character pressures, is strongly, but not entirely, a classed-based game as well.
Let me emphasize again that my point is not to advocate for a leveling game or level-less game, nor for a classless or class-structured game, but simply for staff honesty to their player base when describing their game to new players.
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GEAS
Dec 12, 2023 20:55:41 GMT -5
Post by nobodyatall on Dec 12, 2023 20:55:41 GMT -5
What you're describing is a level-less system. you don't hit 10,000XP and transition from level 2 to level 3 with a sudden power jump because of the level being obtained, you grind up step by step. I'm not defending GEAS, I've never played there and I just can't with MUDs that do item nukes so I'll never play there, but what you wrote is literally what they advertise.
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mike
staff puppet account
Posts: 24
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GEAS
Dec 13, 2023 23:34:59 GMT -5
Post by mike on Dec 13, 2023 23:34:59 GMT -5
I think you may be oversimplifying things. I'm not sure about the logic that is "it is level-less because it is not the leveling system I know." There can be more than one form of leveling. And you accurately describe GEAS, because indeed one gets "a sudden power jump" when a character bumps up to a new level in one of the stats, suddenly all the related skills are free to grow again (for a brief period), and thus one gets a "sudden power jump." (I described it as a 'fractured leveling system' above, because this process is spread across the different stats.)
That being said, I agree with you, if your character "grinds up step by step" the system would be level-less. But in GEAS a character is suddenly provided with more power, in 'fits and starts' whenever some coded threshold is met, then it is misleading to call the system 'level-less'. For example, in GEAS one can boost their stats an move up a level by successfully concluding a variety of quests, and 'discovering' new, hidden areas or experiences. Those events are eagerly sought out by players so they can 'level-up' easier and subsequently improve their skills. As in many gaming environments, when a female character appears mostly (but always) male players will try to flirt and be especially helpful both in and out of character-- at first. I was sent by one a very long list of those quests with instructions on how to accomplish them. Unfortunately, as most female players already know, if you don't respond in kind and flirt back, you soon end up being bullied and interfered with by a few of those same players-- both in and out of character. That was my experience at GEAS. But I digress. The point is that without that quest knowledge, one's character will not "level-up" at anything like the rate of people with it. Therefore knowledge of these quests and how they can be competed is a highly valued commodity that is "traded" among the players and their characters.
The opposite of a leveling system would be a 'continuous' system, where a character develops smoothly and consistently (although not especially linearly). For example with EVERY increment of a skill/stat the next increment is just a little bit harder, that would be an example of a continuous or level-less system. In a level-less system there is no one event that allows for sudden/explosive growth of a character.
For example, I have been playing for weeks with very little skill development, then--by means not entirely clear-- one of my stats jumped up a level. I didn't realize it did, until suddenly I had a variety skill improvements one after another in quick succession. I looked at my stats and saw that indeed one of them had just jumped.
The typical 'level-less' code would be the RPI code of Armageddon, the defunct SoI, and Harshlands. In those games a character's stats are chosen at creation and are typically constant throughout the character's life. Anyone moving from Arm or Harshlands to GEAS would almost certainly be misled by the claim "level-less".
In any case, welcome back to the forum after a nine year absence! I'm honored that my modest post has called you out of your long retirement.
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