kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on Apr 29, 2019 10:10:12 GMT -5
How do they affect them?
I heard in the previous system you could get +strength as a warrior, +agility as a pickpocket, etc.
Anyone know how this carries forward now?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2019 11:43:00 GMT -5
How do they affect them? I heard in the previous system you could get +strength as a warrior, +agility as a pickpocket, etc. Anyone know how this carries forward now? Not sure, but there are stat rolls possible in the new system that werent in the old. At least one of the class roles that used to have a -2 to a stat can now produce an exceptional stat.
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Post by lechuck on Nov 8, 2022 0:15:12 GMT -5
The stat adjustment for classes are as follows,
Enforcer: +2 str, +1 agi -1 wis Raider: +2 str, -1 wis, +1 end Fighter: +2 str Infiltrator: +1 str, +1 agi Scout: +1 str, +1 end Soldier: +1 str, +1 wis Miscreant: +1 agi, +1 end Stalker: +1 agi, +1 end Laborer: +1 str, +1 end Pilferer: +1 agi, +1 wis Adventurer: +1 wis, +1 end Craftsperson: +1 str, +1 wis Fence: -1 str, +1 agi, +2 wis Dune trader: -1 str, +2 wis, +1 end Artisan: +2 wis
Additionally, each class has an "offense gain coefficient" and a "defense gain coefficient." This is what determines your chance to gain in offense and defense upon failure (i.e. missing an attack or getting hit), and I think the offense one also counts for weapon skills. The exact numbers won't mean much to anyone who can't look directly at the code, but the order of the classes matters. From highest to lowest:
OFFENSE GAIN COEFFICIENT Enforcer Infiltrator Fighter/miscreant (equal) Soldier/pilferer Raider/laborer/fence Scout/craftsperson Stalker/artisan Adventurer Dune trader
DEFENSE GAIN COEFFICIENT Raider Scout Fighter/stalker Soldier/adventurer Enforcer/laborer/dune trader Infiltrator/craftsperson Miscreant/artisan Pilferer Fence
So the higher you are in those hierarchies, the faster you gain that skill. There's a clear trend where the criminal classes have high offense gains and low defense gains, wilderness classes have high defense gains and low offense gains, and the city classes (i.e. fighter, soldier, laborer) are balanced between both. Starting off/def values also reflect this.
You generally want low offense gains and high defense gains. There's no disadvantage to having more defense. It doesn't hinder you in any way, so more is always better. High offense gains are a huge hindrance as it'll handicap your long-term skill progression. The more offense you have, the harder it is to raise weapon skills because you stop missing and/or run out of things that have high enough defense for you to gain even if you do miss. This makes it risky to ever attack unarmed or with a weapon with which you're unskilled, because chances are high that you'll gain a point in offense which will make it harder to raise the weapon skill that you actually want to get as high as possible. If you play an enforcer in the Byn and attend unarmed training with any sort of regularity, or if you try to raise more than one weapon skill at a time, you've basically guaranteed that your weapon skills will never get higher than journeyman. It might be difficult even to reach journeyman if you're too frivolous about it. Classes with low offense gains have more leeway since it's less likely that your offense will get too far ahead. It's absolutely idiotic that they coded it this way, but that's how it is.
As such, raiders have the best setup. Highest defense gains and mediocre offense gains. Enforcer, infiltrator, fighter, miscreant, soldier and even pilferer all have higher offense gains than raider, despite it being one of the three heavy combat classes. Meanwhile, the following classes have better defense gains than enforcer: raider, scout, fighter, stalker, soldier, adventurer. Yes, after x amount of days played, even a fucking adventurer will have a higher defense skill than an enforcer, assuming identical activities. Adventurers also start with the same defense skill as enforcers do. Infiltrator is even worse off, with the same defense gains as a goddamn craftsperson. Think about that next time you think to join a sparring clan with an infiltrator. Your weapon skills will plateau very fast, and you'll probably never become very tanky.
It's kind of dumb.
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nobody
Clueless newb
Posts: 82
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Post by nobody on Nov 24, 2022 22:48:26 GMT -5
Anyone got spell lists for some of the higher karma options? Wanting to plan a character but it can be harder without knowing what you can actually do.
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Post by psyxypher on Dec 20, 2022 21:03:28 GMT -5
"High offense gains are a huge hindrance as it'll handicap your long-term skill progression."
Until this glaring issue is fixed, any attempts to fix these things will be putting a band aid on a broken arm.
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Post by lechuck on Dec 21, 2022 19:16:00 GMT -5
It's especially bad in sparring clans. When you miss an attack, your chance to gain in weapon skills and offense depends on the defense skill of your opponent, and vice versa when you get hit. If the gap is too big, the character with the higher skill has no chance to gain at all. But your chance to dodge an attack is based exclusively on defense while your chance to hit is based on several different numbers: your weapon skill, your hidden 'x weapon vs y race' skill, your offense skill, your strength, and potentially other minor factors on top. Both are affected equally by agility so that basically evens out.
This means that the amount of defense needed for PC A to dodge PC B's attacks is so high that unless B is a new character, A probably can't dodge him. Meanwhile, if both start out equal and train each other up, they'll quickly reach a point where it isn't possible for either of them to reach the amount of defense necessary to begin dodging the other. Once they're at, say, 30 weaponskill and offense, it might take something like 60 defense to begin dodging again, but they can't raise each other's defense higher than perhaps 45 or something due to being stuck at 30 in their attacking skills. These numbers are guesses, but that's how it works. Now they're gaining nothing; they can't miss their attacks so their weaponskill and offense don't go up, and they can't gain any more defense until offense is higher, or if they can gain defense, the chance is so low that it might as well be nothing. In all likelihood, they would simply never become able to dodge each other again.
The exception is if you get to spar against some long-lived dude who has been able to roam around the world and freely grind skills, or just been around for long enough to bruteforce their way through the miniscule chance to gain when sparring. And in most cases, skilled characters don't go out of their way to spar with newer characters because, guess what, they get nothing out of it and sparring is boring as fuck. Before they introduced the offense vs defense code, you could at least gain off/def by boxing or letting all the recruits gang up on you, so there was incentive to keep sparring. That incentive is gone now because there will be no chance to gain, so even if you're lucky enough to be clanned with some veteran warrior type, they probably show up for training once a week as a token gesture, if at all.
Sparring became useless since that change unless it's a master training a newbie. It was always worse than roaming alone, but it's so much worse now, and that problem is further exacerbated by the fact that the shrinking playerbase has made regular sparring even harder to find. An indie hunter can accomplish in 5 days what takes 10-15 days in the Byn and 20+ in one of the militias, and can progress much further while the clanned PCs will get stuck at journeyman levels unless the stars align and they happen to land in a clan that has one of the game's three remaining players who both know how to skill up their PCs and are willing to spar daily after they've done so. There usually is no such player in any of the clans that have a sparring schedule. They're off playing sorcerers and desert elves.
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Post by Azerbanjani on Dec 22, 2022 12:53:28 GMT -5
Can confirm or at least provide conjecture that the best way of raising defense is to go find scary things with high offense/defense to almost kill you.
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