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Post by shakes on Jul 10, 2018 16:13:59 GMT -5
I'm willing to address individual arguments without consideration of my suspicions of the poster. I'm pretty good at determining who is or isn't arguing in bad faith.
I wish we could get back to talking about game mechanics, which is really my only interest in this forum. I don't really care who touched who virtually or who is an imm-pet or anything along those lines. And I could quite happily do without the vitriol thrown around.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
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Post by jkarr on Jul 10, 2018 17:47:56 GMT -5
rather she became a fulltime kanklady then bailed after she killed them off Reading Purg's post and contemplating my answer I read this post as well. I think Jkarr's confusing Adhira with Sanvean? Or Vanth? Or this is just a sentence that revolves around 'anything that's negative and the factual details be damned'. bingo in bolded good catch |
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eru
staff puppet account
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Post by eru on Jul 11, 2018 1:03:11 GMT -5
qwerty is staff confirmed. big if true. I am not part of staff. It's not as big as you think it is. There are a few staffers who occasionally participate/participated in these forums. This does not in any way affect 'anything. Even if I was staff, that would mean what exactly? That I'm full of deceit and out to steal your first born? Just read what I write, study my arguments and arguments of others. What my background is literally irrelevant. You disagree with me? Alright. Provide your own counterarguments. Provide at least some semblance of proof, or at least some type of circumstantial type of proof. Whether I'm staff, not staff, an active player, an inactive player, or Nyr himself truly should not affect 'anything'. Lol jesus. learn to take a joke, kid. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2018 1:06:41 GMT -5
 Sure. Alright. |
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Post by sirra on Jul 20, 2018 14:33:39 GMT -5
Out of curiosity. Can you provide the tiniest shred of evidence that any staffer of any real longevity (let's say beyond 3 months) have 'ever' wanted to monetize Arm, or Arm 2. A quote, a log, a forum post, a mention in irc by someone? Just anything really? Cat Rambo (Sanvean in Armageddon terms) intended on using the Zalanthas setting for her short stories, novels, etc. There are currently two books on Amazon that are monetizing Armageddon. and
Now you may be saying, "But that's not monetizing the MUD." Great way to move the goal-posts, buddy. Let me tell you a little something about intellectual property.
Armageddon was, at its core founding, a Dark Sun MUD. The evidence for this is expansive: cannibal halflings, sorcerer kings, avangions and dragons as the result of sorcery: harsh desert planet. Kanks. You get the picture, it was a Dark Sun setting in everything but name. The Dark Sun intellectual property is owned by Wizards of the Coast, and they don't really care if someone is using their material so long as their bottom line isn't affected.
Cat Rambo, in her short dream to monetize the Armageddon setting via means of novelization, led a series of slash-and-burn changes to the game in effort to remove the most egregious links to Dark Sun. This is why halflings were removed; and if you take a look at the staff wikileak, you'll see a heartbreaking tale of one staffer's code quest to put about ~4 months of work into halfling viability before they were wiped from the game due to intellectual property reasons. This is why kanks were removed. Some would say this is why "fun" was removed; since Dark Sun is a fun environment and we can't be having that lest we're getting sued for one of our staffers' attempts to monetize Dark Sun fanfiction without royalty licensing from WoTC.
Alas, Sanvean burned out with the setting and took off to go write more weird sci-fi; and all of the content removed on account of her publishing fears will likely never return. Truly, we've received the worst of both worlds here.
So to your point: "Has any staffer ever wanted to monetize Arm?" Yes. And you can buy the ebook right now.
I also remember that Nyr or someone, once made a post about how changing the setting further from Dark Sun would let them sell coffee mugs or t-shirts. This was around the time they were explaining the reasons for Arm II. |
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Post by lyse on Jul 20, 2018 19:11:11 GMT -5
Cat Rambo (Sanvean in Armageddon terms) intended on using the Zalanthas setting for her short stories, novels, etc. There are currently two books on Amazon that are monetizing Armageddon. and
Now you may be saying, "But that's not monetizing the MUD." Great way to move the goal-posts, buddy. Let me tell you a little something about intellectual property.
Armageddon was, at its core founding, a Dark Sun MUD. The evidence for this is expansive: cannibal halflings, sorcerer kings, avangions and dragons as the result of sorcery: harsh desert planet. Kanks. You get the picture, it was a Dark Sun setting in everything but name. The Dark Sun intellectual property is owned by Wizards of the Coast, and they don't really care if someone is using their material so long as their bottom line isn't affected.
Cat Rambo, in her short dream to monetize the Armageddon setting via means of novelization, led a series of slash-and-burn changes to the game in effort to remove the most egregious links to Dark Sun. This is why halflings were removed; and if you take a look at the staff wikileak, you'll see a heartbreaking tale of one staffer's code quest to put about ~4 months of work into halfling viability before they were wiped from the game due to intellectual property reasons. This is why kanks were removed. Some would say this is why "fun" was removed; since Dark Sun is a fun environment and we can't be having that lest we're getting sued for one of our staffers' attempts to monetize Dark Sun fanfiction without royalty licensing from WoTC.
Alas, Sanvean burned out with the setting and took off to go write more weird sci-fi; and all of the content removed on account of her publishing fears will likely never return. Truly, we've received the worst of both worlds here.
So to your point: "Has any staffer ever wanted to monetize Arm?" Yes. And you can buy the ebook right now.
I also remember that Nyr or someone, once made a post about how changing the setting further from Dark Sun would let them sell coffee mugs or t-shirts. This was around the time they were explaining the reasons for Arm II. They had a sub forum on the GDB that was full of stuff about that. They buried the sub forum. It’s one of the reasons I think they should do a reboot, to get rid of all of the nonsense they’ve done over the years. |
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ibusoe
Clueless newb
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Post by ibusoe on Jul 28, 2018 17:58:15 GMT -5
They had a sub forum on the GDB that was full of stuff about that. They buried the sub forum. It’s one of the reasons I think they should do a reboot, to get rid of all of the nonsense they’ve done over the years.
Usually this is a poor idea.
Protip: It should be taken as granted, as an operating principle almost, that patching an existing system is nearly always a better option than rebuilding a system. Don't take that as endorsement on my part that Armageddon is worth saving. But if it is worth saving, fixing the problems would be a better strategy than a rebuild. A rebuilt system would still have problems.
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Post by lyse on Jul 29, 2018 15:11:46 GMT -5
They had a sub forum on the GDB that was full of stuff about that. They buried the sub forum. It’s one of the reasons I think they should do a reboot, to get rid of all of the nonsense they’ve done over the years.
Usually this is a poor idea.
Protip: It should be taken as granted, as an operating principle almost, that patching an existing system is nearly always a better option than rebuilding a system. Don't take that as endorsement on my part that Armageddon is worth saving. But if it is worth saving, fixing the problems would be a better strategy than a rebuild. A rebuilt system would still have problems.
I’m not talking about a reboot in the sense of a a whole new game. I’m talking about a reboot in the sense of a movie. Take Batman for example. Michael Keaton Batman was good, Val Kilmer Batman was Meh, George Clooney Batman we’d all like to forget. Then we got Chirstian Bale Batman and a good story. Arm is in full George Clooney. Over the years a lot of decisions and actions have been made that have lessened the whole Arm experience. I mean a reboot in the sense of putting those things back. Let’s go back to the essence of Dark Sun. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 15:30:03 GMT -5
The problem is that the source of new staff is the playerbase. And if it's all george clooneys, then well ... that's it. There is no way to reboot a franchise, when only george clooneys are available. It doesnt mean that it cannot improve. There are a few Christian Bales in the mix. But it's a long process, that is not fool proof. It's also rather stressful, time consuming, and soul destroying. To say that the situation did not improve within the last year, or so is rather silly. But to kick out one abusive staffer, one has to replace him with someone else. Sometimes it works out well. Sometimes it works out disastrously. But I think I've talked enough about it. I've asked this before. Name 5 players you think would do better job as staff as current staff.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 16:59:58 GMT -5
The problem is that the source of new staff is the playerbase. And if it's all george clooneys, then well ... that's it. There is no way to reboot a franchise, when only george clooneys are available. It doesnt mean that it cannot improve. There are a few Christian Bales in the mix. But it's a long process, that is not fool proof. It's also rather stressful, time consuming, and soul destroying. To say that the situation did not improve within the last year, or so is rather silly. But to kick out one abusive staffer, one has to replace him with someone else. Sometimes it works out well. Sometimes it works out disastrously. But I think I've talked enough about it. I've asked this before. Name 5 players you think would do better job as staff as current staff. I would ask, in order: Lyse Ibusoe Jkarr Dargan's former player if I could get him interested OT Lechuck Assuming none of these are duplicate accounts by the same people. |
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Post by lyse on Jul 29, 2018 19:42:40 GMT -5
The problem is that the source of new staff is the playerbase. And if it's all george clooneys, then well ... that's it. There is no way to reboot a franchise, when only george clooneys are available. It doesnt mean that it cannot improve. There are a few Christian Bales in the mix. But it's a long process, that is not fool proof. It's also rather stressful, time consuming, and soul destroying. To say that the situation did not improve within the last year, or so is rather silly. But to kick out one abusive staffer, one has to replace him with someone else. Sometimes it works out well. Sometimes it works out disastrously. But I think I've talked enough about it. I've asked this before. Name 5 players you think would do better job as staff as current staff. My analogy had nothing to do with staff, but I'll play anyway. No, the problem is they never really fostered an environment where good people would actually want to BE staff. We all know staffing any game is a thankless, soul crushing job, that's another reason you're running out of volunteers. The real reason is, looking in from the outside, you aren't allowed to do anything as a staff. I could be wrong, but it appears to me as a staffer on Arm, I'd be limited to answering requests, character reports, throwing out some flavor echos, maybe occasionally making something dangerous happening and watching...a whole lot of watching. Maybe...just maybe, if I persevered through that long enough, I could move on to Fries; then the grill, in a year or two Assistant Manager, that's when the big bucks really start rolling in. (Coming to America reference) I could be wrong in that, but I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that feels like that's what staff does. Whatever it is that they do, it doesn't appear to be fun. It doesn't appear to be something worth doing. Who's fault is that? I feel like they're lost a lot of good people because they just weren't allowed to do anything. I could be wrong. It's not that there aren't any Christian Bales, it's that Christian Bale isn't going to act in a Joel Schumacer movie. |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jul 29, 2018 20:27:19 GMT -5
The inability to do anything productive on Armageddon's staff is only half of the problem of being staff. The other half of the problem is being subject to the playerbase's absurdities and whims. For every legitimate complaint, there are handfuls of bullshit that no one wants to deal with. For everything staff do accomplish, there are players who demand more. There are Lizzie-type contrarians who argue against literally everything. There are people who roleplay just enough to avoid getting banned, but don't bring anything remotely compelling to the table. Players are constantly in competition with one another for staff's attention and time.
Why would any player, short of a masochist or someone extremely naive, subject themselves to being beholden to a collection of whining brats?
The lack of capable staff is a part of the problem. The lack of a playerbase to fill staff's shoes is also a part of the problem. But the lack of a playerbase that accepts a staff body and what they do is also a part of the problem.
Now, I'll be the first to say that the staff are volunteers line that they throw out at the first hint of criticism is complete bullshit. They put themselves there and now they have to act like leaders. They volunteered to work, so work. But there are times when players are completely unfair to staff.
Ultimately, the game's community is rotten to the core. Serious changes need to happen before the game is ever properly staffed. And I highly doubt that the community is self-aware enough to recognize that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2018 21:07:27 GMT -5
The inability to do anything productive on Armageddon's staff is only half of the problem of being staff. The other half of the problem is being subject to the playerbase's absurdities and whims. For every legitimate complaint, there are handfuls of bullshit that no one wants to deal with. For everything staff do accomplish, there are players who demand more. There are Lizzie-type contrarians who argue against literally everything. There are people who roleplay just enough to avoid getting banned, but don't bring anything remotely compelling to the table. Players are constantly in competition with one another for staff's attention and time. Why would any player, short of a masochist or someone extremely naive, subject themselves to being beholden to a collection of whining brats? The lack of capable staff is a part of the problem. The lack of a playerbase to fill staff's shoes is also a part of the problem. But the lack of a playerbase that accepts a staff body and what they do is also a part of the problem. Now, I'll be the first to say that the staff are volunteers line that they throw out at the first hint of criticism is complete bullshit. They put themselves there and now they have to act like leaders. They volunteered to work, so work. But there are times when players are completely unfair to staff. Ultimately, the game's community is rotten to the core. Serious changes need to happen before the game is ever properly staffed. And I highly doubt that the community is self-aware enough to recognize that. Half a solution would be progress that could be built on. Wouldnt regular "non end of the world" stories breathe life back in? To paraphrase another poster, if you could rotate three staff out, and three posters here in, do you have a suggestion to debate? |
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jul 29, 2018 21:24:49 GMT -5
Sure, they would. Do players want that though? You'd have an easier time herding cats than trying to figure out what players find fun. Certainly the lasers in the sky bullshit is tiresome. But there's a lack of players who care to have any risk to their character. Good luck working around that in a permadeath game. As for who to replace and with whom? I don't have any sort of recent perspective on the game itself, and tend to simply assume things are the same or worse compared to when I left. I would say the staff most unsuited to their positions are Seidhr, Akariel, and Shalooonsh. Seidhr is simply not a good face for the staff, given his inability to talk in a civil manner. Akariel has the opposite problem, and tries too hard to ingratiate himself with the players, making it difficult for him to be authoritative when he needs to be. Shalooonsh, well, we all know how I feel about him. Even in the unlikely event that the recent accusations against him are false, from what I've seen of him in-person and online, I know him to be a complete scumbag. He is likely not on staff for any reason other than to bide his time until he can become Administrator and have more room for his own brand of staff corruption. I don't know people here well enough to select replacements, but if I had to go by who has the most insightful opinions about the game's past or present, I would pick three of any of these people: BitterFlashback , lyse , delerak , sirra , and punished ppurg. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2018 15:17:14 GMT -5
But there's a lack of players who care to have any risk to their character. Good luck working around that in a permadeath game. As long as access to karma and most sponsored roles is at least partially based on character longevity, why should players who want those things risk their pcs? This is the core of my argument against the griefer population as well. If your goals will come at the expense of mine, why should I ever play near your pcs? Edit: Amusingly, the smaller scale for karma has partially fixed this issue for me. I doubt I'll ever get karma point 3, so I'm more willing to mix it up with pvpers once I've skilled up. Maybe we should set everyone except staff to 2, and call it a day. |
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Sure. Alright. 
