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Post by yourvisiongoesblack on Jun 19, 2018 7:50:54 GMT -5
I've been rezzed once.
50+ day character. I was taking medication (that I have been on since post-military service), fell asleep, and dehydrated in Luir's. Immediately, I was told the rez shouldn't have happened, and the situation was codely rectified to prevent LD/inactive players after another 40+ day merchant died in the same way, in the same place.
It took them a while, but the imms eventually identified a problem and solved it with a coded solution.
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faroukel
Displaced Tuluki
What's a story without a villain?
Posts: 201 
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Post by faroukel on Jun 19, 2018 9:09:46 GMT -5
How a staff that cares would respond to above scenario;
1. Don't be cold about it. Someones pissed, you should commiserate to some degree. That is unacceptable behavior in a RPI game. Copy Pasting shit is dumb. Have enough 'touch' to at least write out your commentary.
2. Ban the offending player for whatever time you feel is necessary. Placing a ban does not mean losing a player. It can make them realize that a: they enjoy playing the game, and b: if they want to continue playing, fall in line with the rest of the community.
3. If there's policies in place regarding rez's, follow them. Explain why you can't, (Which dude did sorta, but could have handled much better.
4. Work with the aggrieved player on a replacement pc. Don't know Arms policies, I know they have a rpp system with karma and crap, so staff may not be able to trick out a new pc without them karma points, but shit...help the guy out. Find out what interests them, and if there's a unique opportunity they can fill. Saying file a complaint (I don't and never have played more than an hour, literally...and even I know how well a complaint will work out for you.) and move on is weeaaaak. Take the time to show that you care about the community, and work with the player to replace the loss with something else that interests them.
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Post by yourvisiongoesblack on Jun 19, 2018 9:51:02 GMT -5
I've never staffed a game before. I've been asked to staff ArmageddonMUD, an offer I declined (I believed and still believe I was too young).
Yet watching what happens with the adminstration, well, it's not unlike being an armchair general:
"You should have done X, not Y. Why the FUCK are you doing Z INSTEAD OF N?"
For someone who is new to administering a game like ArmageddonMUD, it is probably far too easy to make mistakes, just as it is far too easier for players to make mistakes (and their character dies). We are all human.
So, part of the problem that has led to a malignancy in ArmageddonMUD, whether you want to call it these forums, the player/staff relationship, or both... whatever... is that admins are often reluctant to refuse to go back on what they've said; after all, as a leader, you never want to seem weak by backpeddling on a decision. This was one of Nyr's greatest flaws: he formed opinions about players and stuck to them, exuding a "Fuck you, I'm the boss" aura so strongly that it severely damaged something he had grown to, I believe, genuinely love and care about.
When Nergal had his thing that caused him to leave, it was because he made no attempt to back down and say, fuck, maybe I made a mistake. Because he was the boss, right? And good bosses don't play that shit, right? Maybe that flies in the military or corporate world, but in a small, text-based game composed of people who have been involved for years... it just doesn't. As such, admins often simply leave instead of admitting that they made a mistake. Looonsh is an exception to this; he made a mistake as a staff member - a very bad one - yet sucked it up, humbled himself a little, amd kept pursuing what he loves.
Back to Nyr: in attempting to strictly adhere to rules while simultaneously gathering his own "King's Men" who received the same preferential treatment he vowed to be against, well, this hypocrisy led not only to his downfall, but severely damaged the game as an entirety, too. Even now, people that Nyr immed/gave templar roles/whatever to... have risen to admin positions within the game.
But I digress. The main thing I'm trying to say is that Akariel nor any other imm should refuse to do Rami the good turn he deserves - even after coming to post on the sHaDoWbOaRdS.
Rami's player needed to vent, and rightfully fucking so. Yet had he posted this on the GDB, it would have been taken down immediately. Instead, we're led to a conversation that obviously *needed* to happen.
It's my hope that Rami's player isn't punished for coming here to vent and explain his point of view, IC info be damned. There are some who would say that anyone posting here is at fault for Arm's obvious decline, yet that simply isn't true; there are problems within the game that DEMAND open and honest discussion, and, unfortunately, you just can't do that on the GDB. I would go so far as to say that the inability to discuss situations like Rami's in an open, honest, and transparent way is one of the things that is killing the game.
Having Nergal's attitude about these forums (do a search on the GDB for his comments) is just an inexcusable way to help run a game.
Instead of ripping players apart, banning them, and refusing to ever let them play anything except the basic classes and races, the administration should, instead, look past the anger of some and really make a strong attempt to pay attention to some of the more valid points raised here, like Rami's.
And I know for a fact that they've done that to some degree, while still maintaining punishments levied for posting here in the first place. It's an absurdity that could only be explained if you had time to listen to 20+ fucking years worth of an online culture, and I can promise you that there are at least a few people reading this who aren't even that old.
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
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Post by mehtastic on Jun 19, 2018 10:26:35 GMT -5
The usual modus operandi for Armageddon's staff is to hunt and punish people who leak information or request resolutions. Rami tried to post his story on both the GDB and Armageddon's official Discord channel, and it was deleted both times. Both times, it was Akariel suppressing Rami's story. I have no doubt that they will punish Rami for this post if they haven't already.
But this behavior isn't something Nyr did, or Nergal did, or Akariel, or any one particular staff member. It is the typical behavior for an Armageddon staff member to suppress any form of expressed dissent or dissatisfaction with the game. They cannot control this forum, so they hate it. It is that simple.
While you're correct about what staff should do, you are naive if you think they will ever listen to you. They have never listened to anyone speak truth to power in the entirety of the staff body's existence, and they should not be expected to start now. You've likely already given yourself away by mentioning that you've been invited to staff Armageddon, an invitation that I doubt very many players get.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jun 19, 2018 10:53:03 GMT -5
How a staff that cares would respond to above scenario; 1. Don't be cold about it. Someones pissed, you should commiserate to some degree. That is unacceptable behavior in a RPI game. Copy Pasting shit is dumb. Have enough 'touch' to at least write out your commentary. 2. Ban the offending player for whatever time you feel is necessary. Placing a ban does not mean losing a player. It can make them realize that a: they enjoy playing the game, and b: if they want to continue playing, fall in line with the rest of the community. 3. If there's policies in place regarding rez's, follow them. Explain why you can't, (Which dude did sorta, but could have handled much better. 4. Work with the aggrieved player on a replacement pc. Don't know Arms policies, I know they have a rpp system with karma and crap, so staff may not be able to trick out a new pc without them karma points, but shit...help the guy out. Find out what interests them, and if there's a unique opportunity they can fill. Saying file a complaint (I don't and never have played more than an hour, literally...and even I know how well a complaint will work out for you.) and move on is weeaaaak. Take the time to show that you care about the community, and work with the player to replace the loss with something else that interests them. In other words: How a staff that cares would respond to above scenario: Like a normal human being instead of a DMV robot. |
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Post by yourvisiongoesblack on Jun 19, 2018 11:19:03 GMT -5
I've given myself away by more than that, and I don't really care.
Unfortunately, mehtastic, you are correct about it being SOP. And you are also, again unfortunately, correct that at least *a portion of* the staff hate these forums, and the "why," too.
Unfortunately, mehtastic, you are also almost certainly correct about Rami: like many of us, he will be blacklisted or otherwise viewed with unease, when they should have offered him a Byn Sergeant special app that will probably appear on the Staff Announcements section before too long. I spent a lot of time playing with the character Rami (that's what's really going to give me away), and he was a solid player who put in a lot of hours and was consistently *good.*
Where you're wrong... is that they have listened and responded to matters that have been posted here. I think it's true that they've cut back on the sort of behavior that led to these forums rising to prominence in the first place - because doesn't that make sense?
Less and less, we hear stories of blatantly absurd treatment. The torrent of stories pouring into these forums at their onset have dwindled to a trickle; in my opinion, the staff of the game, consciously or unconsciously, changed to avoid the potential for more shitstorms. The smidge of emergent transparency caused a shift in attitudes.
Yet, it's not enough, and they *do* need to listen more. Am I naive for believing this? Probably.
But here's where I'm really naive:
I would like to be more like Looonsh, who, after fucking up in a serious way while on staff... didn't fade away like the others: Halaster, Bhag, Sanvean, Nyr.
Instead, he fixed himself and pushed forward, trying to bail out a sinking ship bucket by bucket and eventually making staff again.
Admittedly, I am a dumb human. I do lots of dumb human things. I take way too many fucking drugs, don't exercise as much as I should, take enormous RL risks of all sorts, and I keep thinking about this, as many describe it, "dying" text-based game, despite the fact that it has, at times and at no direct fault of my own (like Rami's situation), had a pronounced negative effect on my mental health. Again, I am a big, dumb, naive man.
But I don't want to see ArmageddonMUD go away, even if its problems can't be rectified on Discord, the GDB, these forums, or at all. I get teary-eyed (I know, you're thinking how pathetic I am) when I think about it sometimes, like right now, which should really demonstrate just how big of a dumby I am. But it's the truth: I want it to keep going as strongly as I believed Arm 2.0 would become a real thing, further demonstrating just how naive I am. You're an astute observer, mehtastic, but where we differ is that either I am, unlike you, beyond to point of hatred that I once was at, or that I'm maybe just far more naive. At the end of the day, maybe it's a little bit of both.
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
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Post by mehtastic on Jun 19, 2018 11:33:27 GMT -5
No, I don't think you're pathetic. It's perfectly normal to be passionate about a hobby. I liked Armageddon once and I still remember the days that I enjoyed playing it. What I feel for the game isn't hatred, exactly, but a desire to see the game and its community stop suffering. The people I hate are the people who keep the lie going by pretending that everything's fine. I just feel bad for everyone else.
As for staff listening to what has been posted here, and adjusting their behavior accordingly... sure, it's happened a few times, when they've absolutely had their hand forced. But they still engage in the same behavior of suppressing dissent.
They punish people who post here, especially if they are complaining about the staff or the game.
They keep an iron grip on discussions in Armageddon's official discord channel. Whenever a topic comes up that staff don't like to hear about it, they humor it for a few minutes before changing the topic.
They engage in gaslighting regularly, especially on the Armageddon official discord channel.
I know enough about Shalooonsh to know that staff must have either been really desperate for new, warm bodies when they selected him to join staff, or Shalooonsh had friends on staff who would vouch for him. Whether their gamble paid off, I don't know. Personally, I think he's a shitty human being for reasons I won't get into here. He is not a role model or a success story.
In the end, no one is perfect, and people deserve a chance to express themselves and to correct themselves. I will be the first to congratulate staff for recognizing the numerous problems with their game, and taking the steps to both discuss them openly and call for solutions to correct the game, whenever that day happens to come. I have spoken in favor of otherwise unpopular staff members who did the right thing from time to time, and I don't look at any current or former staff member as 100% bad, not even the big bads that get their names thrown around here the most. I'm just not seeing a reason to be sympathetic lately.
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Post by lyse on Jun 19, 2018 17:52:16 GMT -5
Typical Arm
Arm Player: Hey, I just got griefed. Here's the log. *Shows the log*
Typical Arm Staffer: Sure, I'll take a look. Matter of fact, let me log on since I'm not logged in. *Looks at the log, logs in checks the run log*
Typical Arm Staffer: Yeah, definitely a griefer. That sucks dude, good luck with your next character.
Arm Player: Hold up, don't I get a rez?
Typical Arm Staffer: Wellllllll, the rules say...*copy and pastes the rules* Also, fill out this TPS report.
Arm Player: Why? What's that going to do? There's someone just going around killing people. He's a griefer. That was a thirty five day character, I played every day, established contacts and friends and that all ends because of some asshole? You're not punishing him, you're punishing ME.
Typical Arm Staffer: True. We'll take care of that. Have fun starting over.
Former Arm Player: I'm done with this game.
Typical Arm Staffer: Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
Former Arm Player: *posts on the GDB--DELETED*
Typical Well meaning GDBer: *Posts a tangental idea that is dumb, gets idea ripped to shreds*
Typical Arm Psycho: Tuff. The world is harsh, you could get killed for Blah, blah, blah Bullshit. This isn't a thing that happens all the time. Why should staff care about this? My characters all live to about 5 days played, ten tops. Yeah, I play assholes all the time, but I make things happen.
Typical Arm Apologist: One time, my character got killed no emotes, nothing....that sucks dude. Good luck with your next player.
Typical Armpologist2: *Makes a Buffy reference* Good luck on your next character.
Lizzie: *says something ridiculous. Doesn't matter what, it's ridiculous*
Possible Shadowboarder: Hold on guys, let's think about this....
Typical Arm Psycho2: Shut up! I never emote when I PK, does that make me a griefer? No! I have three karma! My RP is great! I make mad plots!
*Former Arm Player is long gone. Status quo is maintained. People go back to the "Why are Zalanthans monogamous?" and the "I luv playing magickers... so suck it!" threads*
Typical Arm Fan: Hey guyz! Guyz! Player numbers are waaaaay down. Everybody write a good review of the game on these sites *Lists sites for MUD reviews* We need to get new players, so we can take advantage of their noobness.
The right response
Arm Player: Hey, I just got griefed. Here's the log. *Shows the log*
Typical Arm Staffer: Sure, I'll take a look. Matter of fact, let me log on since I'm not logged in. *Looks at the log, logs in checks the run log*
Typical Arm Staffer: Yeah, definitely a griefer. If nobody's around and nobody saw your dead body, I'll rez you. If somebody saw your corpse we have a little bit of a problem. What we'll do is write up a new character and we'll raise the character's skill levels to where they were with your old character.
End of story.
See, there's this thing called discretion and extenuating circumstances. In this case, a staffer should have the discretion to do the right thing under extenuating circumstances. Needless to say (but I will anyway) staff already has this power and they use it. Why not in this case, is beyond me.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jun 19, 2018 20:49:25 GMT -5
All of ramihr's posts disappeared. I wonder which staff member threatened ramihr into deleting the posts.
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Post by pinkerdlu on Jun 19, 2018 21:10:10 GMT -5
Nice
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Jun 20, 2018 0:36:37 GMT -5
kinda weird that staff would have any leverage on someone that claims to have quit
either way, story's pretty much already out there
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Post by julio on Jun 20, 2018 7:32:50 GMT -5
All of ramihr's posts disappeared. I wonder which staff member threatened ramihr into deleting the posts. holy Shit... |
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Post by yourvisiongoesblack on Jun 20, 2018 8:54:45 GMT -5
Instead of assuming threats, maybe they opened a dialogue with him and came to a resolution after thinking about it a bit more.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Jun 20, 2018 9:03:55 GMT -5
I was being half-sarcastic. I mentioned the possibility of that in the Discord channel yesterday.
Still, if the staff made ramihr whole, but included deleting the previous complaints as a condition, then the effort is 100% intended to cover their own asses. It just so happens that doing the right thing happened to intersect with staff's desires here. Let's not pretend that the staff are altruistic.
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Post by yourvisiongoesblack on Jun 20, 2018 9:25:17 GMT -5
Regardless of how you view a person, mehtastic, the simple fact is that most of the prominent staffers just go away when they fuck up.
Bhag caught shit for using his OOC high-immship (I forget what they were called in those days, rank above storyteller, maybe not quite Highlord), and he was gone.
Halaster caught shit for the whole Plainsman thing, vanishes.
Sanvean's Arm 2.0 was a bust, and she was gone.
Noted Liar Nergal had his necker/I dunno what thing, and, again, gone.
Edit: Almost forgot about Nyr. Shit came to light, and, instead of making things right, he just left.
Too many admins and players fuck up in very real ways... and just leave. For good.
I don't want to get into personal details because I, myself, am a rather loathesome human being. I can really be a bad person sometimes, whether we're talking about breaking the law, not being attentive to my family, being a lazy bum, all kinds of shit. Sometimes I feel like Ricky from Trailer Park Boys crossed with the guys from Requiem for a Dream.
But I just like it when people don't give up. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. Sure, there are plenty of things worth giving up on, and ArmageddonMUD is something I've done that with multiple times over ALMOST 20 years. I think I'm at 18. It's just, I dunno what I'm trying to say, exactly, but I like when people, after failure, don't immediately throw up their hands and walk away. Or maybe, even if they do, they reflect on their mistakes and come back.
Again, I don't want to get into particulars about, OOCly, what makes someone a good or bad person, whether within or outide the context of the game, at least not this morning.
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