jjhardy
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 288
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Post by jjhardy on Jun 3, 2018 17:36:08 GMT -5
Let's address what noone is talking about, what are the new subguilds going to be? I rather doubt they are going to give the old subguilds so people can min max.
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Post by lyse on Jun 3, 2018 18:04:00 GMT -5
People are going to min max regardless. That's inevitable. As soon as that dude leaked the new classes people immediately started talking about what they can and can't do.
They'll probably suck, pretty much like they do now. At best, they'll give you one useable skill and a handful of shitty middling skills.
They should scrap the subguild system and allow you to choose one other skill to advanced, two other skills to high journeyman. That's it.
If they really wanted to overhaul the class system they should've done an overhaul where you make you pick your own skills based off of templates.
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Post by lechuck on Jun 10, 2018 13:04:48 GMT -5
Listen is being separate into city_listen and wilderness_listen for the new guilds (but old characters keep the legacy version).
What exactly is the point of this? How does it even make physical sense? You either have a good sense of hearing or you don't.
In any case, if wilderness listen can't gain from listening in the city, the skill will be borderline impossible to raise unless you're in a populated delf tribe. You'd have to rely on catching animals sneaking in/out of the room. Old listen was already a huge pain in the ass for rangers who live in the wild, and they at least had the option of going to a city to train it. If that's no longer an option for the new guilds, it'll surely take months to raise this skill. I hope nothing important branches from it for any guild, but odds are that it branches to sneak for the guilds that branch it. Sounds like an absolute nightmare.
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jenki
Clueless newb
Posts: 156 
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Post by jenki on Jun 10, 2018 14:23:33 GMT -5
Hopefully wilderness listen is more than just an outdoor sneak detecting skill and will offer other ways to improve and branch wildneress sneak. If not then this is going to be a huge problem for the "new rangers". I can hope but the way it's looking the ranger guild is going to be sorely missed after the new classes hit the sands of Zalanthas streets of Allanak.
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Post by lechuck on Jun 10, 2018 14:34:27 GMT -5
It's hard to see what else wild_listen could gain from. There's basically nothing in the wilderness that speaks, and unless they add a ton of new "auditory hemotes" to all areas of the game, what else could there be? With player numbers as low as they are lately, just meeting another guy in the desert is a once-a-week occurrence.
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Post by julio on Jun 10, 2018 17:37:23 GMT -5
My ranger in the grasslands went 2 months of play, not. A. Soul.
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Post by julio on Jun 19, 2018 20:22:09 GMT -5
My ranger in the grasslands went 2 months of play, not. A. Soul. I saw a half elf but they don't have souls... |
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,695
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Post by mehtastic on Jun 20, 2018 9:59:39 GMT -5
According to Brokkr in the official Discord channel, and the GDB, the new classes will NOT have master-crafting abilities by default unless they select a new 0-karma subguild that allows for master-crafting in certain skills.
What this means: no more merchants who can master-craft everything. No magicker master-crafters, since magick is contained in subguilds now.
Crafting, like magic, is now another thing your character can't specialize in. Soon you will be forced to specialize in one aspect of crafting.
Why did the staff make this change? One can only speculate, but I'm guessing it's to reduce master-crafting requests. Fewer master-crafters with fewer master-crafting skills means less staff work.
It also means fewer new items added to the game, which is just great for a game that is in desperate need of new content.
What do you think about the crafting changes?
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Post by yourvisiongoesblack on Jun 20, 2018 10:18:05 GMT -5
Sorry, I like the new guilds.
But some valid points have been brought up here, and I trust that, as everyone starts playing these classes, they get tweaked along the way.
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Post by yourvisiongoesblack on Jun 20, 2018 11:09:28 GMT -5
According to Brokkr in the official Discord channel, and the GDB, the new classes will NOT have master-crafting abilities by default unless they select a new 0-karma subguild that allows for master-crafting in certain skills. What this means: no more merchants who can master-craft everything. No magicker master-crafters, since magick is contained in subguilds now. Crafting, like magic, is now another thing your character can't specialize in. Soon you will be forced to specialize in one aspect of crafting. Why did the staff make this change? One can only speculate, but I'm guessing it's to reduce master-crafting requests. Fewer master-crafters with fewer master-crafting skills means less staff work. It also means fewer new items added to the game, which is just great for a game that is in desperate need of new content. What do you think about the crafting changes? I've played a lot of merchants, and I think removing the merchant class as it is = great idea. Why? I have had like three fully branched merchants, and I always felt a little silly being able to do EVERYTHING. I mean, it just didn't seem realistic, at the core, to me. A guy who can make diamond earrings and silt horror breastplates with the same ease? I mean, no, IRL, that doesn't happen. Moreover, the sheer amount of obsidian that an independent, fully-branched merchant can make... is absurd. It's ridiculous. Recently, I found myself just throwing around bribes like candy, thousands and thousands of coins, because what the fuck else was I going to do with it? Put it in Nenyuk and be charged ridiculous amounts for deposit fees? In the end, even pouring coins into bribes, which probably doesn't happen as much as it should, wasn't enough to keep from being assassinated. You can use your sid to try to protect yourself with bribery, but, realistically, my char would have been able to afford a secure space/guards with so many coins. But it's not really that easy to rent a safe space, like a warehouse with a guard, as we all know. So, specializing seems like a great idea. Having an uber-merchant class just became ridiculous at times, and while the advent of extended subguilds provided an alternative to crafting 100%, I feel like crafters who have specialities combined with other skills to help them survive is a great idea. I do think Dune Trader should have wilderness quit. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2018 22:02:01 GMT -5
The uselessness of coin keeps me from worrying about a merchants production level. Even cutting the number of skills each merchant has in half wont do much to curb the relative abuses. Access to three or four shops is good enough.
I'd rather "merchants" / heavy mercantile keep access to as many master crafts as possible, as those can serve as access to plots. To finally get the sponsor you want and not be able to satisfy the accompanying bizarre whims would kinda suck.
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tedium
Clueless newb
Posts: 164 
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Post by tedium on Aug 1, 2018 6:36:34 GMT -5
The major problem that I see with these classes is that they split them into three categories (Criminal, City, and Wilderness) but gave all of the City abilities to the Criminal category. Who gets city scan? Not the city group. Who gets city hunt? Not the city classes. They really need to strip scan/listen/hunt from all of the Criminal classes, give them to the City classes, and introduce poison-tolerance as a listed skill to the City line. Then it might actually be worthwhile to give up Master Backstab and advanced sneak/hide. Enforcer really should have decent poisoning, too, even if it isn't Master. If they're meant to be the "Criminal" fighter, then they should at least dabble in underhanded tactics.
Alternatively, scrap the "City" line entirely, and merge them in with the others. Raider/Enforcer are pure bruisers focused on A tier combat, A-tier maneuvers, and B-tier perception. Infiltrator/Scout are B tier combat, B tier stealth, B-tier maneuvers, and A-tier assassination (wilderness get archery/poison, city get backstab/sap/poison). Stalker/Miscreant are B-tier combat, A-tier stealth, A-tier perception, B-tier assassination, C-tier maneuvers. And then the crafting classes progress on like that, with light-mercantile being good enough to hunt on their own (but they can't craft independently) and heavy mercantile being able to pick up the rest, with a few Mastercrafts.
Heavy combat hunts light combat but has no stealth of their own, in city or wilderness. Light combat hunts everyone else with middling perception, good combat/maneuvers, and high assassination abilities. Mixed are hybrids who can see everyone, hide from everyone, but probably not kill heavy/light combat unless they find an opportune moment. Light mercantile are PvE-focused combatants who get skills suited to assisting their crafting, and heavy mercantile just have enough combat to not get destroyed by skeet and day-ones.
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mehtastic
GDB Superstar
Armers Anonymous sponsor
Posts: 1,695
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Post by mehtastic on Aug 1, 2018 6:54:15 GMT -5
The class system is a complete mess, honestly. It will probably be years before it is actually fixed.
Or they could go the route of eliminating classes entirely, and bring their game into the 21st century.
The loss of mastercrafts is, IMO, the most embarrassing part of this whole scheme. It's completely obvious that it was done to reduce staff workload even further. There is no other tangible benefit to limiting mastercrafts to those who pick a specific guild and subguild combination when it was previously limited to those who picked a specific guild OR subguild.
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tedium
Clueless newb
Posts: 164
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Post by tedium on Aug 1, 2018 7:04:50 GMT -5
The class system is a complete mess, honestly. It will probably be years before it is actually fixed. Or they could go the route of eliminating classes entirely, and bring their game into the 21st century. The loss of mastercrafts is, IMO, the most embarrassing part of this whole scheme. It's completely obvious that it was done to reduce staff workload even further. There is no other tangible benefit to limiting mastercrafts to those who pick a specific guild and subguild combination when it was previously limited to those who picked a specific guild OR subguild. I just saw about the Mastercraft loss. Very disappointed. Heavy mercantile really should get Mastercrafting, even if it's limited among certain skills, or by their line of specialization, or by their clan. IE, only wilderness heavy mercantile can mastercraft bows and wilderness stealth stuff, even though anyone can make them. Or only Kadians can mastercraft luxury stuff outside of the extended subguild. That kind of thing. Removing them entirely detracts from the game.
Edit: I think if they gave the "General / City" group wilderness and city scan/hunt/listen, but no stealth, it would suit their line much more and make them actual generalists. Fighter would be pure combat, able to detect either raiders or enforcers. Add advanced ride to soldier, and forage food/master ride/direction sense/climb to laborer. Good guards, soldiers, and grebbers, but not good assassins or raiders.
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Post by yourvisiongoesblack on Aug 1, 2018 11:36:26 GMT -5
Well, here's one of the things that will happen with many classes suddenly acquiring crafting skills - as crafting becomes way more common:
Even if master-crafting is taken out of the equation, there will still be only a certain number of shops with a certain number of coins.
Since Tuluk has long-been removed, the number of shops that can be sold to has been reduced significantly.
As a result, there may be a situation like in the past, where shopkeepers had fewer coins, making it a lot harder for people to use the new abundance of crafting skills to actually sell things.
Having said that, it seems like there have been code changes to allow shopkeepers to renew sid every few days or someting, so maybe this could simply be tweaked to allow them to have for coin.
Putting extra shops in Luir's, Cenyr, Red Storm - or altering the shops in those places to have more coins - might give an incentive for now-more-prevalent trader PCs to hire the Byn more to go these places.
Even though this has been done, making it harder to travel between Luir's and Nak would also encourage more caravaning-with-the-purpose-to-sell RPTs.
That's assuming people actually use the mixed merchantile classes to focus on their crafting skills heavily.
Implementing rules against Merchant House PCs from selling to shops of their own House - or for, just as an example - a Kadian crafter from making armor/weapons and flooding the market, just because they can - like we've seen in the past would be a good choice, too, if it isn't already being enforced.
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