julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Wisdom
Apr 26, 2018 15:25:42 GMT -5
Post by julio on Apr 26, 2018 15:25:42 GMT -5
How much does this stat really matter?
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Wisdom
Apr 26, 2018 15:35:56 GMT -5
Post by sirra on Apr 26, 2018 15:35:56 GMT -5
It's the difference of about 10 days playtime in how long it takes to reach master in a combat weapon, between a dwarf with poor wisdom and a human with very good. Otherwise, not much.
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Wisdom
Apr 26, 2018 16:48:13 GMT -5
Post by lechuck on Apr 26, 2018 16:48:13 GMT -5
My impression is that it affects only skill timers and perception skills. And of course mana and spells but that doesn't really matter unless they put the original mage guilds back in. If there's more to it, it isn't apparent from the codedump. It doesn't look like wisdom is related to "chance to increase skills."
Skill timers are nearly irrelevant to most players. Any kind of normal playstyle should make it almost certain that there's no conflict between between skill usage and skill timer. The only time this matters is if you're using a skill so often that you can actually take advantage of a timer that is, say, 48 minutes instead of 56 minutes, or something. In 95% of cases, you won't notice. In the rest of the cases, it doesn't matter as most binary skills (all the ones that increase every time you fail) are maxed so easily that it doesn't matter either way. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether you hit master hide at 3d or 3d12h.
There was a long-standing belief that wisdom affected the chance for weapon skills to go up when missing. It may, but my scrutiny of the codedump has not revealed any such connection. If it's there, it's buried somewhere outside of the basic formula. I would venture to guess that there's no relation between wisdom and combat skillgains aside from the actual timer, but that race might have an impact. Dumb races may have a penalty tied to race and not wisdom. After all, half-giants get a gigantic mana penalty that doesn't match their wisdom score if it scaled linearly. So race may have an influence beyond stats.
Besides skillgains, wisdom affects the 'perception' substat which covers basically all the perception skills. Scan, listen, hunt, etc. If being able to scan out assassins and burglars (who get 90 hide) is important to you, wisdom is a useful stat. If your character does not get the scan skill from its main guild, it isn't. Subguild scan will never be useful, you can't really scanspot someone whose hide level is above your scan level. The guilds that get 80 scan, i.e. pickpocket and assassin, can benefit from high wisdom in detecting the guilds that get 80 hide, i.e. pickpocket and ranger. They can't expect to spot 90 hide: asssassin and burglar.
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Wisdom
Apr 27, 2018 9:10:51 GMT -5
Post by julio on Apr 27, 2018 9:10:51 GMT -5
So there is really no point in ever prioritizing wisdom. What about for crafting?
I remember reading on the GDB someone saying that they can't manufacture some leather/hide product because their wisdom was bad.
And what is the real difference between dwarf very bad wisdom and elf very good wisdom in terms of timers? Like does it fucking matter?
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Wisdom
Apr 27, 2018 9:26:47 GMT -5
Post by jcarter on Apr 27, 2018 9:26:47 GMT -5
re:crafting
I don't see anything in craft code that uses wisdom bonuses. What I would suspect is that wisdom applies some modifier to skill cap for certain skills, and that person had a guild/subguild with a max skill below the threshold needed for a craft so they couldn't craft the item due to that.
As for timer difference, not sure but wisdom has this listed:
/* wisdom apply */ /* learn, perception, saves */ struct wis_app_type wis_app[101] = { {0, 0, 0}, /* 0 */ {1, -30, -50}, {2, -20, -40}, {4, -15, -30}, /* 3 */ {6, -10, -25}, {8, -5, -20}, {10, -5, -15}, /* 6 */ {12, 0, -10}, {14, 0, -5}, {16, 0, 0}, /* 9 */ {18, 0, 0}, {20, 0, 0}, {24, 0, 0}, /* 12 */ {28, 0, 0}, {32, 0, 0}, {38, 0, 5}, /* 15 */ {44, 5, 10}, {50, 5, 15}, {56, 5, 20}, /* 18 */ {62, 10, 25}, {68, 10, 30}, {74, 10, 35}, /* 21 */
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Wisdom
Apr 27, 2018 10:26:19 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2018 10:26:19 GMT -5
re:crafting I don't see anything in craft code that uses wisdom bonuses. What I would suspect is that wisdom applies some modifier to skill cap for certain skills, and that person had a guild/subguild with a max skill below the threshold needed for a craft so they couldn't craft the item due to that. As for timer difference, not sure but wisdom has this listed: /* wisdom apply */ /* learn, perception, saves */ struct wis_app_type wis_app[101] = { {0, 0, 0}, /* 0 */ {1, -30, -50}, {2, -20, -40}, {4, -15, -30}, /* 3 */ {6, -10, -25}, {8, -5, -20}, {10, -5, -15}, /* 6 */ {12, 0, -10}, {14, 0, -5}, {16, 0, 0}, /* 9 */ {18, 0, 0}, {20, 0, 0}, {24, 0, 0}, /* 12 */ {28, 0, 0}, {32, 0, 0}, {38, 0, 5}, /* 15 */ {44, 5, 10}, {50, 5, 15}, {56, 5, 20}, /* 18 */ {62, 10, 25}, {68, 10, 30}, {74, 10, 35}, /* 21 */ Thank you for this. From novice to master on each skill, crafters only need 32-38 skillups. Some skills like forage are less, due to bigger starting scores. A maxxed wis elven crafter can fully branch in about 10 days. A maxxed wis human crafter can do it in about 14 days played. Both numbers are assuming a huge pile of materials or backing. Having a much lower wisdom doubles this time, but this is a run for the end of the "beginning game". Agility determines success rate on almost all crafts. While haggle seems to be somewhat impacted by wisdom, to maximize money output on a merchant it is far more important to succeed often on crafts (high agi), have safe storage of goods (not stat related), not buy your materials from npcs (not stat related), and know how the shops work (not stat related). Of course, you will also need a plan for your new found wealth, or you will just store anyway. Wisdom does massively impact rate of learning languages and accents.
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Wisdom
Apr 27, 2018 10:40:17 GMT -5
Post by julio on Apr 27, 2018 10:40:17 GMT -5
I didn't know about AGI being the success modifier of crafts... Is it marginal or substantial?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Wisdom
Apr 27, 2018 18:32:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2018 18:32:29 GMT -5
My impression is that it affects only skill timers and perception skills. And of course mana and spells but that doesn't really matter unless they put the original mage guilds back in. If there's more to it, it isn't apparent from the codedump. It doesn't look like wisdom is related to "chance to increase skills." Skill timers are nearly irrelevant to most players. Any kind of normal playstyle should make it almost certain that there's no conflict between between skill usage and skill timer. The only time this matters is if you're using a skill so often that you can actually take advantage of a timer that is, say, 48 minutes instead of 56 minutes, or something. In 95% of cases, you won't notice. In the rest of the cases, it doesn't matter as most binary skills (all the ones that increase every time you fail) are maxed so easily that it doesn't matter either way. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether you hit master hide at 3d or 3d12h. There was a long-standing belief that wisdom affected the chance for weapon skills to go up when missing. It may, but my scrutiny of the codedump has not revealed any such connection. If it's there, it's buried somewhere outside of the basic formula. I would venture to guess that there's no relation between wisdom and combat skillgains aside from the actual timer, but that race might have an impact. Dumb races may have a penalty tied to race and not wisdom. After all, half-giants get a gigantic mana penalty that doesn't match their wisdom score if it scaled linearly. So race may have an influence beyond stats. Besides skillgains, wisdom affects the 'perception' substat which covers basically all the perception skills. Scan, listen, hunt, etc. If being able to scan out assassins and burglars (who get 90 hide) is important to you, wisdom is a useful stat. If your character does not get the scan skill from its main guild, it isn't. Subguild scan will never be useful, you can't really scanspot someone whose hide level is above your scan level. The guilds that get 80 scan, i.e. pickpocket and assassin, can benefit from high wisdom in detecting the guilds that get 80 hide, i.e. pickpocket and ranger. They can't expect to spot 90 hide: asssassin and burglar. I think its worth pointing out that city elf wisdom can allow a massive skill ROI in clans. At their highest wisdom, they can get 2 skillups in a 30 minute clan schedule sparring session, when everyone else gets 0 or 1. On days where you can spar all day, its 3 to 2. If you can arrange a couple sparring buddies outside a clan, its really not hard to branch a weapon on a high wis city elf at day 5. The problem is then, what do you do with it. Apprentice branched weapons and low base O and D is still a dead elf to raiders, in gladiatorial matches, or against most gith/spider rpts.
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Post by lechuck on Apr 28, 2018 11:17:11 GMT -5
That stops mattering as soon as you no longer gain skills in every sparring session, and then you're stuck with awful physical stats. Skilling up faster is worth so little. It might get you to a certain point a little faster, but once you're there and the limiting factor becomes access to failures instead of time, it stops mattering. Then you're sitting there with your 11 strength and 9 stamina, and three days later everyone else catches up to you. Once you're at the point where eking out misses is a minigame in itself, your skill timers mean jack shit. If you prioritized wisdom thinking it would make you better, you'll find out you were mistaken as soon as you plateau. Invest into the stats that always matter: strength, agility, and to a slightly lesser extent, endurance. Wisdom is a newbie trap. It's nice to have some, but it should be last unless you're strictly non-combat.
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Wisdom
Apr 28, 2018 14:12:47 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by julio on Apr 28, 2018 14:12:47 GMT -5
That stops mattering as soon as you no longer gain skills in every sparring session, and then you're stuck with awful physical stats. Skilling up faster is worth so little. It might get you to a certain point a little faster, but once you're there and the limiting factor becomes access to failures instead of time, it stops mattering. Then you're sitting there with your 11 strength and 9 stamina, and three days later everyone else catches up to you. Once you're at the point where eking out misses is a minigame in itself, your skill timers mean jack shit. If you prioritized wisdom thinking it would make you better, you'll find out you were mistaken as soon as you plateau. Invest into the stats that always matter: strength, agility, and to a slightly lesser extent, endurance. Wisdom is a newbie trap. It's nice to have some, but it should be last unless you're strictly non-combat. Is it a trap on crafter types. Seems like a HG merchant would make the best merchant because they wouldn't need an appartment being able to carry every thing. Or do elves make the best merchants thanks to high Agility?
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Wisdom
Apr 28, 2018 19:48:54 GMT -5
Post by sirra on Apr 28, 2018 19:48:54 GMT -5
My impression is that it affects only skill timers and perception skills. And of course mana and spells but that doesn't really matter unless they put the original mage guilds back in. If there's more to it, it isn't apparent from the codedump. It doesn't look like wisdom is related to "chance to increase skills." Skill timers are nearly irrelevant to most players. Any kind of normal playstyle should make it almost certain that there's no conflict between between skill usage and skill timer. The only time this matters is if you're using a skill so often that you can actually take advantage of a timer that is, say, 48 minutes instead of 56 minutes, or something. In 95% of cases, you won't notice. In the rest of the cases, it doesn't matter as most binary skills (all the ones that increase every time you fail) are maxed so easily that it doesn't matter either way. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether you hit master hide at 3d or 3d12h. There was a long-standing belief that wisdom affected the chance for weapon skills to go up when missing. It may, but my scrutiny of the codedump has not revealed any such connection. If it's there, it's buried somewhere outside of the basic formula. I would venture to guess that there's no relation between wisdom and combat skillgains aside from the actual timer, but that race might have an impact. Dumb races may have a penalty tied to race and not wisdom. After all, half-giants get a gigantic mana penalty that doesn't match their wisdom score if it scaled linearly. So race may have an influence beyond stats. Besides skillgains, wisdom affects the 'perception' substat which covers basically all the perception skills. Scan, listen, hunt, etc. If being able to scan out assassins and burglars (who get 90 hide) is important to you, wisdom is a useful stat. If your character does not get the scan skill from its main guild, it isn't. Subguild scan will never be useful, you can't really scanspot someone whose hide level is above your scan level. The guilds that get 80 scan, i.e. pickpocket and assassin, can benefit from high wisdom in detecting the guilds that get 80 hide, i.e. pickpocket and ranger. They can't expect to spot 90 hide: asssassin and burglar. I think its worth pointing out that city elf wisdom can allow a massive skill ROI in clans. At their highest wisdom, they can get 2 skillups in a 30 minute clan schedule sparring session, when everyone else gets 0 or 1. On days where you can spar all day, its 3 to 2. If you can arrange a couple sparring buddies outside a clan, its really not hard to branch a weapon on a high wis city elf at day 5. The problem is then, what do you do with it. Apprentice branched weapons and low base O and D is still a dead elf to raiders, in gladiatorial matches, or against most gith/spider rpts. It rarely works out that way for elves, unfortunately. They might reach skill 30 or so first, but after that, everyone plateaus, and the only people still getting gains now and then are those who manage to get dodged by the elf thanks to their high agility. So paradoxically, the elf falls behind. Unless you're in the supremely rare circumstance of being lovingly mentored and coached along by a high agility 50-100 day ranger (and not some warrior who is just using you for disarm practice), the only reliable way to branch weapons these days, is to fight spiders while mounted. If you can scan, then attack them first for a chance of an auto dodge, if not, fight em at night. That's how I mastered sword on a half-giant in less than 30 days played.
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Wisdom
Apr 28, 2018 21:33:44 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by julio on Apr 28, 2018 21:33:44 GMT -5
Oh wow. How do you find spiders, south west allanak?
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Wisdom
Apr 29, 2018 2:20:07 GMT -5
Post by triskelion on Apr 29, 2018 2:20:07 GMT -5
There are spiders all over the place in this fucking game. Northwest Driath, Southwest driath, the sewers under the driath, the tunnels attached to the sewers, fuck, there are probably spiders on the other side of the silt sea
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Wisdom
Apr 29, 2018 18:05:23 GMT -5
Post by sirra on Apr 29, 2018 18:05:23 GMT -5
Oh wow. How do you find spiders, south west allanak? Just ride west out of Allanak, following the road. The sandy brick-red tarantulas are the best. They're north of the road at the far western end near the Oashite vineyard. There's a lot of em, they're hidden, and move in packs. They're better than stilt lizards but way more dangerous. If you're not mounted, they'll bash you and then another will join and eat your face.
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julio
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 270
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Wisdom
Apr 29, 2018 21:11:32 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by julio on Apr 29, 2018 21:11:32 GMT -5
Oh wow. How do you find spiders, south west allanak? Just ride west out of Allanak, following the road. The sandy brick-red tarantulas are the best. They're north of the road at the far western end near the Oashite vineyard. There's a lot of em, they're hidden, and move in packs. They're better than stilt lizards but way more dangerous. If you're not mounted, they'll bash you and then another will join and eat your face. I never considered mounted combat as a way of avoiding bash. When do I know if I'm ready for spiders?
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