How do you feel about the upcoming class changes.

[12:32 PM] Nathvaan: Welcome to the November 2017 Player/Staff Meeting. If you have a question, type "I have a question" in the #queue channel and you'll be called on when you're up to ask a question. The queue opens up at 12:30PM and will close around 2PM or when all questions are answered. (All times are server time)

[12:35 PM] Adhira: Alright, let us get started with a question from one of the long time supporters of the game - Mansa, you are up!

[12:35 PM] mansa: Oh hi. What's the main goal of the guild revamp, and how can everyone tell if the game is successful in reaching that goal?

[12:37 PM] Brokkr: I think Nergal explained some of that in his original post. We have some guilds currently that work really well, like Ranger or Merchant.

[12:37 PM] Brokkr: We also have pickpockets.

[12:38 PM] Brokkr: While Ranger can handle a wide variety of roles with the skills it gets, pickpocket is less able to. We'd like to see all the main classes generally available to folks do more of what ranger can do. We are successful if that is the case.

[12:39 PM] Brokkr: Hopefully that answers your question!

[12:39 PM] Nathvaan: #evilcabbage You are up!

[12:40 PM] evilcabbage: so with the new guild revamp, will there be classes similar to the ones that we have now, like a "warrior-like" or a "Ranger-like"?

[12:40 PM] Brokkr: I think it would be safer to say that you will have a spectrum, typically along an axis.

[12:41 PM] Brokkr: So, for instance, any of the heavy combat classes are going to seem "warrior-like", while any of the wilderness classes from Heavy Combat to Mixed are going to have aspects that seem "ranger-like"

[12:42 PM] Brokkr: They won't be 1-1, but depending on how you currently play, there is probably going to be an option, I hope! Unless you just want every single thing that the current Ranger has, in which case you might be slightly disappointed.

[12:43 PM] Adhira: Alright, Najdorf, you are up.

[12:43 PM] najdorf: tnx, have you ever considered a dynamic guild generation by players picking skills at a cost (also some skills enabled only through other skills). Do you believe fixed guilds are better? Or do you favor dynamic guilds, but is it a coding limitation at this point?

[12:43 PM] Brokkr: Yes, we have considered it.

[12:44 PM] Nathvaan: From the coding perspective, there are always limitations that have to be taken into account but in most cases, with the right amount of effort they can be overcome. The calculation is always a matter of effort vs effect.

[12:45 PM] Nathvaan: But as Brokkr described, it has been in discussion!

[12:45 PM] Nathvaan: Okay, Veselka, you are next!

[12:46 PM] Veselka: Will advanced weapons be possible to choose either through guild or sub guild choice across multiple "classes" or just a one, two?

[12:48 PM] Brokkr: I typically won't talk about individual skills. But in this case perhaps it is merited. None of the 15 classes currently have advanced weapon types on their list. We will have to see what happens in play testing, but it could be that they become gladiator guild only.

[12:49 PM] Brokkr: There are reasons why. But prob ably more than I can expound on here.

[12:49 PM] Rathustra: Re: najdorf. To provide some insight into that discussion: We came to the conclusion that a class-based system did a better job of creating an environment where no single character or build would dominate any given plot. Certain classes excel at certain things and there is overlap across the various axis of city/wilderness or combat/mercantile, but overall any great endeavour will require many characters to come together in its pursuit.

[12:50 PM] Veselka: I'll save another question for the queue. Thanks.

[12:50 PM] Adhira: Alright, Bushranger, it's all you.

[12:51 PM] Bushranger: Thank you! My question concerns the help files and how skills are presented for the new classes. Will they be in the cryptic crossword style of the current guilds or will it be plainly set out like the subguilds?

[12:52 PM] Brokkr: I am using a different format currently in the help files, it has the skills, their max level, and whether they branch. They do not have what branches from what, until we get some player input from those playtesting.

[12:52 PM] Brokkr: As well as the normal paragraph that is less skills based.

[12:53 PM] Brokkr: One thing we need to know from players is whether they really want to know what branches from what...obviously taking it back once it is out there is problematic.

[12:53 PM] Brokkr: And this will be the first time in many years some folks will have to figure out branching paths.

[12:54 PM] Nathvaan: Alright Punished Goose, batters up!

[12:54 PM] Punished Goose: Uh...

[12:54 PM] Punished Goose: fuck

[12:54 PM] Punished Goose: Framing this question under the assumption that we're acknowledging our D&D roots here: How did the rogue class get split up into pickpocket/burglar/assassin/rogue subguild, ect anyway? Why not just a rogue class and an assassin class, or just one?

[12:55 PM] Brokkr: Our roots are actually Gamma Diku

[12:55 PM] Adhira: A lot of Armageddon's unique features are due to multiple contributors, who may not have had any D&D or Dark Sun experience.

[12:55 PM] Brokkr: And none of the folks present in this discussion was here at the time that was made. Remember, the early game had a LOT of changes.

[12:56 PM] Brokkr: And really, that has nothing to do with the class changes. Can I request we keep this on topic?

[12:56 PM] Adhira: I'm going to move on to O riginal Sha.

[12:57 PM] ShaLeah: Hi! Love you all!

With the (awesome) guild changes that will make realism much much better (I think), would staff ever consider keeping the 3 scariest classes (Sorceror/Void/Psi) as special apps only and as badass and scary as they were?

[12:57 PM] Brokkr: I realize that a lot of folks return to this topic. The answer, however, is no.

[1:00 PM] Nathvaan: One thing I'll add is that we do anticipate revisiting additional and perhaps related sub-subguilds after this work is complete. No more details available on that though!

[1:00 PM] Nathvaan: Who's next... Veselka again!

[1:02 PM] Veselka: Thanks. Are we going to see new skills added through this or in the future related to this or is it simply rebalancing current skills under new headers? If I could lump in a second, has there been consideration for fighting styles or differentiation between combat classes beside weapon choices?

[1:04 PM] Brokkr: Right now we have not added in any additional skills. During play testing, we may find that some classes don't have the zing, or are underpowered, relative to others. Looking at potential new skills at that point would be one option to remedy those issues.

[1:05 PM] Brokkr: If you mean fighting styles ala Krrx old-school stuff, no.

[1:05 PM] Brokkr: Obviously there are differences, but I'm unsure if they would meet what you are getting at or not. You'll probably have to wait until release to see the skills they get, and in what combinations.

[1:06 PM] Veselka: I mean more that two "warrior types" might end up completely different in their end game rather than having very similar skills throughout. I imagine this might be remedied by multiple combat heavy classes?

[1:07 PM] Brokkr: So very few folks make the end game that it really isn't the most important way to balance combat classes.

[1:07 PM] Veselka: Cool thanks!

[1:07 PM] Adhira: Mansa! Let's hear from you.

[1:07 PM] mansa: In terms of crafting skills - the ability for characters to 'create' items seems in a different class of utility than for the ability for characters to 'kill' other characters. In other games, like World of Warcraft, the 'create items' skills can be added to any type of combat guild. i.e. You can have a rogue with 'leatherworking' and you can have a warrior with 'leatherworking' and you can have a mage with 'leatherworking'.



How does the guild revamp take into account crafting skills?

[1:08 PM] Brokkr: Crafting skills are applied to characters the same way they have been, through guilds or through subguilds. You can only choose those in chargen, not in game later. That said, I think you will find crafting skills more pervasive.

[1:08 PM] Brokkr: And of course, we have one exception to what I just said.

[1:09 PM] Brokkr: Drawing, you can get drawing at any point.

[1:09 PM] Nathvaan: Next up: najdorf, part deux!

[1:09 PM] najdorf: Veselka's question partially covered it, but still... When I first heard that 6 guilds will convert into 12, I thought each new guild will have lesser capabilities compared to the old ones. Especially with the specialization theme. Will this be the case, or will there be a good deal of skill sharing across guilds. As an indicative figure, did the average number of skills (core skills) per guild drop significantly?

[1:10 PM] Brokkr: I haven't run the numbers on that last part, but I would guess no.

[1:11 PM] Brokkr: So, there are 15 guilds. The heavy combat ones are the best at combat type stuff.

[1:11 PM] Brokkr: Light combat not quite as good as them. Mixed not quite as good as light combat, and so on.

[1:12 PM] najdorf: So it is not like the magical guild split, but more like variations for specialization.

[1:12 PM] Brokkr: However, other than maybe a couple of skills, and for them by an amount not really relevant, one of the new classes has the same, or higher, cap in any particular skill than the max in the old classes.

[1:13 PM] Brokkr: I would say the Heavy Combat, Mixed and Heavy Merchantile are the specialist groups, and the Light Combat and Light Merchantile are the jack of all trades, sorta?

[1:14 PM] Adhira: Bushranger, you get another shot.

[1:14 PM] Bushranger: Regarding branching paths I've been playing a very long time and I still couldn't tell you what branches from what for pretty much all the guilds. There are things like "Those skilled with the use of a bow may learn to craft their own versions of these weapons" from Help Skill Bowmaking which has always suggested to me that Rangers, who have "a strong aptitude for archery" but I don't think that anyone who is skilled at archery branches bowmaking. The point of this is while exploring branching can be interesting having a simple list of skills each guild gets is amazing, thank you! My follow up question is given that there are more guilds are there any skills that are limited to just one?

[1:14 PM] Bushranger: Oops thats longer than I thought, sorry.

[1:15 PM] Brokkr: Yeah. And to be fair, currently I have a list of what skills for each guild they start with and their max, and a seperate list of what they branch to, with the max. Just no indication of what branches to what, which will be determined during play testing.

[1:16 PM] Brokkr: As for as the actual question, there is one skill that is limited to one guild.

[1:17 PM] Nathvaan: Up next is Morrolan!

[1:17 PM] Morrolan: First of all, thanks to all the staff who are working so hard on the game. Much appreciated. Following up on Mansa’s question, in the new system will mastercrafting now be relegated to subguilds only, one class and subguilds, or more distributed?

[1:18 PM] Brokkr: We haven't nailed down 100% how we want to handle this. We'd like to move away from the idea that a custom crafted object has to be some master level, intricately detailed, awesome item. It would be ideal if the solution encouraged a move away from personal, ego boost type items to stuff that is driving plots or filling an obvious gameworld hole.

[1:18 PM] Brokkr: Examples of thoughts are should working for a GMH open up limited ability to custom craft in areas of its expertise? How can we enable some sort of trade-off in order to get the ability to master craft?

[1:19 PM] Brokkr: So, work in progress. No hard answer yet.

[1:19 PM] Morrolan: Thank you.

[1:20 PM] Adhira: Banned the destroyer, your turn.

[1:20 PM] Many bulli: Out of all the new classes which does staff think, if any, play the most different out of all the classes Arm currently has? For example, it seems a Desert/Merchant based character would play rather differently than anything we currently have now but I'm wondering what staff thinks.

In the same realm of thought, are there any new classes that play very similarly to what we already have?

[1:20 PM] Many bulli: Akariel changed my name I'm banned I swear

[1:21 PM] Brokkr: I am so interested to see during play testing if this is the case.

[1:21 PM] Brokkr: I am guessing that Dune Trader, and to some extent Miscreant, will play differently.

[1:22 PM] Brokkr: Fighter will play similarly to Warrior, and Artisan closely to Merchant.

[1:23 PM] Brokkr: But I think one dynamic that will be interesting is desert capable classes that are not just combat types.

[1:23 PM] Brokkr: Same with criminals that aren't heavy into combat/thieving.

[1:23 PM] Nathvaan: One more from Veselka, go for it!

[1:25 PM] Nathvaan: Well, due to lack of response, we'll be moving on to some of the GDB questions.

[1:27 PM] senor the loveable scamp: what rhe hek

[1:27 PM] endoftheweek: I don't know what I was expecting by going to the voice channel.

[1:28 PM] Veselka: Sorry my internet died. And I forgot my question. Circle back around!

[1:28 PM] Nathvaan: No worries, Mansa go ahead with yours!

[1:28 PM] mansa: This is a weird question about using skills and successes:



There seems to be few results for a lot of skills - crit fail, fail, pass



...And, when using skills, it seems like having 'journeymen' level of skills doesn't allow you to 'trust' whether you can be successful or not in an activity. Failing a skill in certain situations can be the difference between life and death.



Is there an attempt to look at the skills themselves and give more failure / success cases as part of the guild revamp is to give different caps to classes?

[1:30 PM] Brokkr: I tried to pretty carefully look at guild maxes, especially in the context of balancing between classes

[1:31 PM] Brokkr: But it is only one of several things, like starting vs branched, and what similar classes could do

[1:31 PM] Brokkr: And whether a skill is meant to be of primary usefullness, or something that might fail a bit but still be useful sometimes.

[1:32 PM] Brokkr: But changing the actual code for stuff? Only one that I can think of and it probably isn't the one you are thinking of.

[1:33 PM] Adhira: Ok Tektolnes, you better have words of wisdom here.

[1:33 PM] Mehrunes Dagon: Will there be wilderness quit?

[1:33 PM] Brokkr: Yes, some folks will have that.

[1:33 PM] Brokkr: Oh, and you guys kind of disappointed me.

[1:33 PM] Mehrunes Dagon: Yay, thank you. I also <3 Tektolnes.

[1:33 PM] Brokkr: I was really hoping to answer a question with this.

[1:34 PM] Brokkr: gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53139.0.html

[1:34 PM] Brokkr: But no one asked the right question!

[1:34 PM] Brokkr: Maybe we can't do it now?

[1:35 PM] Nathvaan: Well, hard to top that one but Jingo, go for it!

[1:37 PM] Jingo: Rogue classes have always been kind of weird with three distinct flavors but no broad rogue class. Can you give us a rundown on the dispersment of sneaky skills per professions?

[1:37 PM] Jingo: Interrupting is a crime.

[1:37 PM] Brokkr: Nope, as I mentioned earlier, not going to talk about specific skills. But...

[1:38 PM] Brokkr: There is a class that will make folks that have always wanted a blended pickpocket/burglar happy

[1:39 PM] Brokkr: Assassins are a little trickier, depending on your playstyle, you could pay assassin -like with any of the three most combat oriented criminal classes.

[1:39 PM] Adhira: Hey, what's happening here! No rogue interruptions.

[1:40 PM] Adhira: Endoftheweek, you may ask.

[1:40 PM] Veselka: (I remember my question too)

[1:40 PM] endoftheweek: I don't have a mic working.

[1:41 PM] Adhira: Typing is good too.

[1:42 PM] Brokkr: Since I am not in voice, asking me a question there will have less of a chance of being answered than asking here!

[1:42 PM] endoftheweek: Do you get to keep your PC if they survive the beta period or will there be a purge?

[1:43 PM] Brokkr: The only purging I intend to do is of folks that don't contribute during the beta.

[1:43 PM] Brokkr: That said, its a beta. Who knows, we could get rid of a class altogether as superflouos.

[1:44 PM] Brokkr: In which case, we'd need to figure out something for your character.

[1:44 PM] endoftheweek: Okay, follow up question allowed?

[1:45 PM] Nathvaan: First, Veselka gets a chance. Go for it.

[1:45 PM] Veselka: Part of the original announcement for these guild changes implied that some guilds would start at a higher skill level (generally), and would have a lower maximum/cap (generally) for more casual players. Has that changed over time, or can we expect to see that in the future? Follow up question -- Which of these classes will be karma restricted, and which not?

[1:46 PM] Brokkr: None of these 15 classes are karma restricted.

[1:46 PM] Veselka: Wow, cool!

[1:47 PM] Brokkr: Going back to the dynamic Nergal laid out, heavy combat classes have the highest maximum obtainable skill level for combat skills, heavy merchantile for crafting/merchanty skills, and mixed for survival skills. But that isn't all. Classes have higher starting skill levels in what they excel at, lower starting skill levels in what they aren't as good at, using a standard methodology that works across the 15 classes.

[1:47 PM] Brokkr: So, heavy combat classes, for instance, will start higher in combat skills typically than existing classes.

[1:48 PM] Nathvaan: Alright, ready for the follow up endoftheweek.

[1:49 PM] endoftheweek: Does the beta player have any say in how the skills are redistributed if that happens?

[1:51 PM] Brokkr: The beta players are expected to give feedback. We'll look at the informed feedback, and what we are seeing, and choose. They are welcome to make suggestions as part of the feedback.

[1:51 PM] endoftheweek: Cool thanks homie.

[1:52 PM] Brokkr: Also not sure when beta players will see all the class skills, probably not at the beginning, then they would only see theirs. Note I am asking folks to make a blind choice on what class they want to test.

[1:52 PM] Adhira: Perilouspixie, what say you?

[1:53 PM] perilouspixie: So, with all this mention of "beta" and stuff, what does that actually /mean/? This is a full shift from old-Arma to Arma II Electric Boogaloo, leaving no remnants behind? Is this to say that this state we're in right now is alpha, or?

[1:55 PM] Brokkr: It is just a beta test of the new classes. So folks not playtesting will start their normal guilds and characters and play them. Playtesters will be playing the new classes, with the new skillsets, alongside them. Basically they are playing a different skillset and giving us feedback on that, and that is all that is different.

[1:56 PM] Nathvaan: Last up, Bushranger!

[1:57 PM] Bushranger: Are we able to participate in the new guilde beta testing with our current character, understanding that all skills will be set to starting levels when our guild is switched is it possible, or will you just tell me "No Bushranger, that's super hard work!"? I'm super excited about them!

[1:58 PM] Brokkr: So here is the thing. Play testing isn't so folks can get an advance view of the classes.

[1:59 PM] Brokkr: It is so we can get quality, informed feedback in order to make sure they are the best we can make them when we release them.

[1:59 PM] Brokkr: With than in mind, no, we won't be doing that.

[1:59 PM] Brokkr: No Bushranger, that's super hard work!

[2:00 PM] perilouspixie: Can I ask my follow-up before the end of this? :heart:

[2:00 PM] Adhira: You have 10 seconds to type it perilouspixie!

[2:00 PM] perilouspixie: OKAY so once this is all finished up and the beta is over, is this mandatory for all? The new classes thing.

[2:00 PM] Brokkr: Wait! What! How long do I have to answer?

[2:00 PM] Brokkr: So, when the beta is over, and we go live...

[2:01 PM] Brokkr: Existing characters will remain as is.

[2:01 PM] Brokkr: But you won't be able to choose existing guilds in character generation, only the new guilds.

[2:01 PM] perilouspixie: Ooooh. Alrighty. Thank you.

[2:01 PM] Adhira: Alright all, that's everything for now, we do have an announcement:

[2:01 PM] Adhira: Our next 'AMA' style chat will be happening next week - Thursday, November 16th at 9.30pm server time. The new and returning Storytellers will be on discord and taking your questions.

[2:02 PM] Nathvaan: Thanks everyone for attending! We will be moving over to general now and maybe hanging out for a bit!

[2:02 PM] Nathvaan: Logs will be posted shortly for those that couldn't attend!