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Post by desertman on Oct 28, 2016 20:09:30 GMT -5
I remember Koman Locke from more than one character. One was a Whiran determined to make his way as a merchant. Until he got outed by a gemmed Whiran in the Gaj and had to take the gem himself. I'd created the character with the intent of pursuing a "moonwheel", namely a caravan device that allowed a pilot to look up when and which moons would be up at night on a given month/date. No such device actually existed in the game, it was just a McGuffin. I figured the chance the staff would look on and actually create one was about zero. Nevertheless, even after being outed, he raised coin and hired the Byn (i.e. Koman and Armali) to try to help him find it. Sent them out into the Salt Flats to look for a ruined wagon surrounded by salt-encrusted skeletons (which had since abruptly disappeared). Was escorted by them down into the system of caverns north of Allanak. Armali made him pay through the nose for that contract (9000 coins) and it was clear the Byn strongly resented being in the employ of a gemmed. I think the staff immediately changed the sinkhole to not allow ready surface access after that. The feeling that the staff was working against me in an impersonal way, the sorta-semi-unnaturalness of the Byn hiring out to a gemmer, and the isolation (never had intended to become a gemmed) convinced me to not continue the plot, so I stored. Koman was great, though. Best time to be in the Byn, those days. I remember this and actually took out my Scout unit which was about four strong at the time to search for this wagon before we went out with the main group. Searched high and low but as you say it was nowhere to be found. I never knew why we were looking for it. I always just assumed there was some "treasure" in it or that your gemmer was just hiring us to give us something to do. Interesting to know the story behind the whole thing. I fully expected when we went out we were actually going to find a wagon with a bunch of staff ran undead around it to mess us up heh.
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Post by sirra on Oct 29, 2016 16:34:16 GMT -5
I had to do a fair amount of digging over a ton of player reports, but I found some fun stats.
During Locke's time as a Sergeant he directly negotiated and led 93 successful contracts.
He grossed a total payout of 161,991 coins directly from contract pay.
He was in the T'zai Byn for eight IC years, six of those as an officer.
He averaged 26,998.5 coins per IC year as an officer off of contracts he negotiated and led directly.
He actually led 137 contracts if you count those negotiated by other Sergeants but led by Locke himself for IC reasons.
He recruited over 220 Runners during his time. I say over 220 because I don't have an exact number, but this is where I lost my verifiable count.
Over the course of his life he was shot 21 times by staff ran archers.
He was set on fire/assaulted by fire to the point of having to replace all of his gear four times by staff ran arsonists of varying sorts.
Over the course of his life he was poisoned 9 times by staff animated/ran creatures or NPC's. Two of those were peraine.
Over the course of his career as a Byn Sergeant he lost four Runners on jobs in the field. (The rest of the Runners who met bad ends died when he was offline/not around.)
Over the course of his career as a Byn Sergeant he lost only one Trooper in the field, a half-giant in a spider battle saving Templars and Oashi nobles from some canyons after they crashed their wagon.
His unit once fought off a total of 119 (this is where we lost count, but it was over shortly after this) spiders without losing a single man/woman. They burned the nest.
His claim to fame/shame is that he once had staff force me to disband his unit because, and I quote, "You have more people in your unit alone than every other clan in the game combined currently.". Within an IC year of being forced to implement multiple staff changes against his will (that I advised against OOC'ly but did anyways) he had zero people in his unit and retired from mercenary life.
I've also pointed to Locke and that one Tor fellow whose name escapes me (Mallor?) as being archetypal examples of incredible player leadership that staff seemed to resent.
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Post by desertman on Oct 29, 2016 21:10:32 GMT -5
I had to do a fair amount of digging over a ton of player reports, but I found some fun stats.
During Locke's time as a Sergeant he directly negotiated and led 93 successful contracts.
He grossed a total payout of 161,991 coins directly from contract pay.
He was in the T'zai Byn for eight IC years, six of those as an officer.
He averaged 26,998.5 coins per IC year as an officer off of contracts he negotiated and led directly.
He actually led 137 contracts if you count those negotiated by other Sergeants but led by Locke himself for IC reasons.
He recruited over 220 Runners during his time. I say over 220 because I don't have an exact number, but this is where I lost my verifiable count.
Over the course of his life he was shot 21 times by staff ran archers.
He was set on fire/assaulted by fire to the point of having to replace all of his gear four times by staff ran arsonists of varying sorts.
Over the course of his life he was poisoned 9 times by staff animated/ran creatures or NPC's. Two of those were peraine.
Over the course of his career as a Byn Sergeant he lost four Runners on jobs in the field. (The rest of the Runners who met bad ends died when he was offline/not around.)
Over the course of his career as a Byn Sergeant he lost only one Trooper in the field, a half-giant in a spider battle saving Templars and Oashi nobles from some canyons after they crashed their wagon.
His unit once fought off a total of 119 (this is where we lost count, but it was over shortly after this) spiders without losing a single man/woman. They burned the nest.
His claim to fame/shame is that he once had staff force me to disband his unit because, and I quote, "You have more people in your unit alone than every other clan in the game combined currently.". Within an IC year of being forced to implement multiple staff changes against his will (that I advised against OOC'ly but did anyways) he had zero people in his unit and retired from mercenary life.
I've also pointed to Locke and that one Tor fellow whose name escapes me (Mallor?) as being archetypal examples of incredible player leadership that staff seemed to resent. I don't know, that's a hard thing to say. I had more than a few staffers during this time who were actually great to work with. I wouldn't say they gave me any help IC really, but, they were nice to work with. There are more than a few staffers and some certainly were less invested in helping Locke than others. Some were certainly a lot more invested in blocking him or stopping him than others. But, that's just people being people. Anytime you have Dungeon Masters who also play characters in their own game you are going to have issues with some of them trying to shut you down for numerous reasons. I wouldn't say I ever got any help from staff. I would say the MOST HELP I ever got was usually just them telling me, "We won't support you in any way, but, we won't intentionally get in your way.". This was an ideal outcome for me with any staff interaction I ever had. It was either this or be shutdown every time. The number of times they did intentionally get in my way or shoot me down through animations of various sorts is too high to count. I won't say those weren't justified, only that when they happened they were usually pretty blatant and often times discouraging. Most of the time if I got shotdown or shutdown on something I was basically told, "Just do it. You don't need an IC reason and you aren't getting one.". A good example of this would be when I requested promotion to a Byn Lieutenant after being ridiculously successful for over half a decade. I was told I would not be promoted because despite what happened in character, if they promoted Locke it would send the OOC message to the rest of the playerbase that staff approved of the way I was Sergeanting. Staff in the T'zai Byn had serious issues with the fact Koman Locke developed strong bonds of friendship with the other Sergeants and had every Sergeant work WITH him instead of AGAINST him to get jobs. Ideally they want Sergeants to be in competition with each other for jobs. Locke wasn't interested in that and every single Sergeant, a total of three others during his time who came and went all allied with him immediately and worked fully with him and basically under his command, more or less. The other issue they had was that Locke had a habit of negotiating major payouts for his contracts, and then following through and delivering. This meant that Locke's mercenaries made A LOT of money. A WHOLE LOT. It wasn't unusual for a typical Trooper in Locke's unit to draw down five large a year salary or more. They did not approve of this and actually told me I needed to try and make less money as a mercenary. I came from the era of Tlaloc in terms of playing a T'zai Byn Sergeant. Anyone from that time knows that the T'zai Byn was founded on one principal. "Make as much money as you can because you might not be alive or all in once piece tomorrow. That's mercenary life. Live hard. Live gritty. Money matters more than anything and is the measure of your success.". Then again, I had staffers over me who never even knew Tlaloc because they were so green, so they wouldn't remember that era or what the T'zai Byn is ACTUALLY about. Only what they wanted it to be about. Every single thing Locke did was IC and made sense, so Locke was NEVER ONCE actually punished or even reprimanded in-game. Not once. The reason for that is there was no IC reason to reprimand or punish him. ZERO. Every single thing he did was perfectly in-character, and in all actuality made him a shining example of how to be a obscenely successful mercenary. However, he wasn't playing the cookie-cutter T'zai Byn Sergeant he was "supposed" to be. So, I was told that I wouldn't be promoted because they didn't want to promote my brand of leadership. That was probably one of the best examples I can think of for being shot down OOC'ly for no other reason than, "We personally don't agree with your choices, so, regardless of what's IC, it's our way because we said so.". The short version was that I wasn't given a Lieutenant promotion because I was far too successful as a Sergeant, which is of course, laughably silly. (I don't want to sound conceited, but I do feel I played a great leader here, and have played a handful of other great characters that got traction and that people will remember. That breeds jealousy, especially when some of the staff over you are people who have been playing the game for less than half the time you have. Hell, there's been staff in the past I personally introduced to the game and wrote their first characters for and taught them how to play. To say that some of them might resent that they never had "that great character people know" would be short-sighted. People get jealous. Some people aren't happy unless other people aren't succeeding. I'm sure that comes into play more often than people would expect, but that's just human nature.)
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Post by sirra on Oct 30, 2016 1:51:41 GMT -5
I've also pointed to Locke and that one Tor fellow whose name escapes me (Mallor?) as being archetypal examples of incredible player leadership that staff seemed to resent. But, that's just people being people. Anytime you have Dungeon Masters who also play characters in their own game you are going to have issues with some of them trying to shut you down for numerous reasons. It felt like, during my time in Armageddon, I encountered that sort of behavior time and time again. Although, there were definitely a few good staffers here and there. I forget the guy's name that ran Salarr for a while. He was great, and doing an outpost plot for us. He got replaced by Nyr and Adhira, and they were basically like 'fuck you' for even existing. That seemed to happen a lot, in various iterations. I've just never seen a game where player initiative was punished to the extent it often was. They seemed to especially hate whenever there was a chance of a non-staff alt or non-NPC being treated like someone special. Locke was a legend among the Byn, and could've been the Captain, given his incredible IC achievements and charisma. I played in the Byn right before and after Locke's reign (and briefly during it) and he was pretty much the best possible example of a leader that any player could ever achieve. I've seen a couple others reach those heights as well, and they always ended up embittered it seems, eventually.
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argle
staff puppet account
Posts: 17
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Post by argle on Oct 30, 2016 4:18:33 GMT -5
Not sure how deep you want me to go with this, but I can give examples if you like of how I did this with Locke.
As another new player, they'd be very appreciated. Effective leadership in a game like this (or even in real life) is hard to get right, and it sounds like you really had it together. More please! Pleeeeeeeeease?
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Post by silentlamb on Oct 30, 2016 18:20:19 GMT -5
Just want to chime in that thorn's escru was gotten off one of my half elves who broke into a tribal camp and took a few that were codedly behind a locked paddock gate. I got force stored for it because I didn't wish up when I did it (long time back, kinda shitty thing of me to do in hindsight) but before they did I sold one to her. They had coded fur that could be crafted into things and sheared once a day, they were well cool.
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seuly
Clueless newb
Posts: 103
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Post by seuly on Oct 31, 2016 1:52:48 GMT -5
Mallor is hella old. Takes me back. I miss the Scorpions. <derails>
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2016 11:10:41 GMT -5
I only played with Locke once around the time rihht after he left the Byn. I enjoyed playing with him. I was asking myself "Is LOD still playing?!" Good job Dman, well done.
Why did he leave the Byn? If that's already been explained, someone just say and I'll read back through the thread.
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Post by desertman on Oct 31, 2016 11:41:13 GMT -5
I only played with Locke once around the time rihht after he left the Byn. I enjoyed playing with him. I was asking myself "Is LOD still playing?!" Good job Dman, well done. Why did he leave the Byn? If that's already been explained, someone just say and I'll read back through the thread. I was told I would never be promoted to Lieutenant because, "Staff didn't want to give the impression to the playerbase that they approved of the way I was playing my Sergeant.". (Please see above for more in-depth details.) They did this while simultaneously forcing me to disband my unit because, "You have more players in your unit than the rest of the clans in the game combined currently.". They did THAT while simultaneously moving Locke to Tuluk to, "Put the grit back into Tuluk and attract players to that location.". They did THAT while simultaneously forcing me to ONLY recruit people who agreed to go and work for Salarr and Kadius after their year because Salarr and Kadius couldn't attract common players at the time. In short, they turned Koman Locke into a recruitment NPC for all of the clans/locations/leaders at the time who couldn't attract their own players. I warned them that if they did these things my entire unit would be empty in less than six RL weeks (I even told them exactly how long it would take.) because that's the way turnover worked. They did not care and told me to do it anyways. I gave them their six weeks and truly did put my best foot forward to try and make it work. However, you can't really hold up the base of the pyramid if the top of the pyramid is intentionally crushing you. After six weeks Locke's unit was empty, just as I said it would be, and I was playing in Tuluk alone and nobody would come and work for Locke, and I didn't blame them. Locke retired at that point to do his own thing for many years to come and Tuluk ended up closing shortly after anyways when their remaining efforts all failed to save it. These are not speculations. I confirmed with staff at the time that this is exactly why these things were happening. I didn't like it. But I had to do it. (I apologize to all of the players that I was forced to fire around that time. I also apologize to all of the players I was forced to give shitty recruitment deals to. I did not want to do these things. But, I was just a staff ran NPC at that point really dishing out their orders that were never even given to me IC'ly for IC reasons. There were no IC reasons. Everything I was told to do I was told to do for OOC reasons via the request tool for "the health of the game". I was basically playing the shittiest staff ran avatar ever at that point against my own will.) I will say that the decisions staff handed down to me that caused "the end" were decisions made because they truly thought it was good for the game. They obviously weren't trying to hurt their own game/the game. But I also feel obliged to point out that for 8 RL months straight I could walk into my sparring hall on a standard weeknight and have all three halls full of people. It wasn't uncommon for me to have 15 - 20 people online actively playing with me on any given night of the week and to see 70 - 80 people on almost every night. I remember thinking, "Wow, player numbers have been awesome for months now and at any time I have 25% of the online playerbase actually visibly WITH me.". (There were no wars or anything globally major happening during this time. Nothing. It had nothing to do with HRPT's, and considering it was steady for 8 RL months, it had nothing to do with school, holidays, or seasons. It was simply for "WHATEVER REASON", a more enjoyable time to play the game for everyone. Locke also had the greatest Troopers, First Troopers, and co-Sergeants ever during this era which just made it the perfect concoction for awesome times. It wasn't just Locke.) Now they are lucky to have 40 - 45 players online in total on a busy Saturday night and it has been this way for months. It is what it is. I've always been of the opinion staff needs to focus less on "Making people enjoy what we think they should enjoy.", and instead focus on, "Providing more of what they have shown us they enjoy/has been proven to give them enjoyment.". Staff still isn't on board with that however. It's that ongoing control issue they have.
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Post by desertman on Oct 31, 2016 12:03:40 GMT -5
As another new player, they'd be very appreciated. Effective leadership in a game like this (or even in real life) is hard to get right, and it sounds like you really had it together. More please! Pleeeeeeeeease? Not ignoring you. This is going to be a long one however that I need to go back and reference dozens upon dozens of player reports for. I'm getting there.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Oct 31, 2016 13:35:26 GMT -5
I've always been of the opinion staff needs to focus less on "Making people enjoy what we think they should enjoy.", and instead focus on, "Providing more of what they have shown us they enjoy/has been proven to give them enjoyment."pretty sure this approach died out with one of the newer gen of staffers who didnt play during the mid 90s to early 00s golden age of interactive creative player feedback driven staffers total 180 from then and now and u can see it in the system that was built basicly to control or manage playerled plots
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2016 13:48:59 GMT -5
I've always been of the opinion staff needs to focus less on "Making people enjoy what we think they should enjoy.", and instead focus on, "Providing more of what they have shown us they enjoy/has been proven to give them enjoyment."pretty sure this approach died out with one of the newer gen of staffers who didnt play during the mid 90s to early 00s golden age of interactive creative player feedback driven staffers total 180 from then and now and u can see it in the system that was built basicly to control or managed playerled plots It's about what gives staff enjoyment. it's their train, they just let players use it. If they want to behave poorly, players can spend their time somewhere else. I guess they figure it's a big world, they won't run out of people to support them in whatever it is they are trying to accomplish. Sadly they'd get better success if they realized it was actually a communal effort however some staff lack the emotional intelligence to work with others in the way that's needed, and the ones who do usually move on to greener pastures.
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Post by gloryhound on Oct 31, 2016 14:20:21 GMT -5
Thing is, none of them (save Nessalin) were there at the beginning, and all of the serious development and building was long done before they were parachuted into their positions. So just what is it that makes it "their train" more than anyone else's who has been with the game for a long time?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 31, 2016 15:11:40 GMT -5
Thing is, none of them (save Nessalin) were there at the beginning, and all of the serious development and building was long done before they were parachuted into their positions. So just what is it that makes it "their train" more than anyone else's who has been with the game for a long time?ell... I'm just laying out the facts. The game was created by the collaboration of many players and staff members that are long gone. The current staff are the beneficiaries of those who have helped create what the game is today. Do they deserve to be the beneficiaries of all this work? That's a good question.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Oct 31, 2016 17:30:42 GMT -5
It's about what gives staff enjoyment. it's their train, they just let players use it. If they want to behave poorly, players can spend their time somewhere else. I guess they figure it's a big world, they won't run out of people to support them in whatever it is they are trying to accomplish. Sadly they'd get better success if they realized it was actually a communal effort however some staff lack the emotional intelligence to work with others in the way that's needed, and the ones who do usually move on to greener pastures. well one glory has a pt in that its mainly ness (and other 1st gen staff) who kept that attitude but ur right as far as staff running the ship for him in a lot of ways on his blessing. and the bold part has always been the ruling staff attitude from the start, that is nothing new, the only difference is the staff running under ness and what he lets them do shapes the kind of stupid u see them getting away with
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