Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2016 10:32:38 GMT -5
I criticize the fuck out of the game and staff, but because I disagree with you on 1 or 2 points I'm a brown nosing apologist. Got it.
Edit: Do you even try to come up with a new argument? You've been toting this "anyone who disagrees with me hates change" bullshit for fucking ever.
P.S. The game IS in the best spot it has ever been it. I would find myself agreeing with Lizzie for once if that's what she says. But I get it, because you don't share this opinion with me I'm ruining the game, hate change, and defend everything staff ever does.
P.P.S. Didn't you quit these forums?
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388 
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Post by jesantu on Mar 19, 2016 11:52:56 GMT -5
P.S. The game IS in the best spot it has ever been it. I would find myself agreeing with Lizzie for once if that's what she says. But I get it, because you don't share this opinion with me I'm ruining the game, hate change, and defend everything staff ever does. Really? Honestly? You actually believe that? The game is in the best spot right now? In its entire history? You've either only been playing for a few years or you're one of those classic kids who (without being consciously aware of it) hammers on the keyboard day in and day out in desperate attempt to contradict people not because you actually believe what you say but because it's so compulsive in you to disagree. I'm not accusing you of brown nosing for karma. I don't think you're aim is to support the staff. Your aim is clearly to support no one for the simple fact that it's fun. Despite all their glaring faults the game was in its heyday when San and hal and others ran the show. You cannot amount to anything now. Whether you char dies tomorrow or becomes one of the longer lived pcs of the game it'll amount to the same. Look at basya. Look at davaz. They created unique fighting styles and created a legacy for themselves that ripples through the game to this day. If all you have to say to that is be the change and it's still possible today, then you're living under a rock. Do you know what happened the last time I asked to help develop and further flesh out some clan docs? No. I asked politely and wasn't just told no, I was told no rudely. Do you know what happened the last time I tried to participate in the construction of a landmark? You guessed it. We were all told no. Impolitely. As if our very presence bothered the imm in question. Do you know what happened the last time I played a templar? I was a declawed hamster with less authority and chance to initiate events than an indie half elf in red storm. And you have the gall to say the game is in the best state ever? Sanvean was a paranoid control freak who'd punish you for asking ooc for a person's icq number but she still gave players ample opportunity to weave their own story into the tapestry of the game. I disagree with posters here constantly. So no, you don't have to be in agreement with anyone here to garner respect. You do have to post with a clearer level of maturity however. I have a lot of respect for RRR but I disagree that the blame rests on the imms shoulders. I disagree with delerak on many issues, who probably only wants the downfall of the game and nothing more....I actually want to see it return to a healthier state. But I respect him as a poster. I disagree with oldtwinks decision to duck out due to what, to me, is a 1992 info leak of nothing but redacted docs. He saw it as immoral, I saw it as literally nothing. But I respect the guy immensely. It's petulant little trolls like you who'd be better off reducing what you post by 75% and then wonder why people actually begin to respect you more for it. It's the same fault of nyrs who just couldn't shut the fuck up and make his compulsive need to contradict others any more obvious. Take some time off from posting anything. reevaulate and refine your opinions more before you bother to say anything next time. Not because I dislike you (although for the record, I do) but because it would benefit YOU more than anyone else. I truly believe that you don't even agree with half the things you say, it's just that nagging urge you can't resist to play an obnoxious devils advocate. I'm not going to lie. The game has improved considerably in the past several months. I know this through shared info from more active players than me and have read some of their dialogues with current imms. It all looks a lot less bleak. But the game has an unimaginable long way to go before its in a healthy state again. Speaking of the game being in a healthy state. Have I shown you what that would look like to me? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2016 12:33:09 GMT -5
That's is your opinion, yeah. Why you feel the need to tell me to stop posting I'm not quite sure I understand. I'll take it from a caring, concerned angle instead of the condescending, trite way it actually comes off.
Yes. I believe the game is the best it has ever been. I'm sorry it's so hard for you to believe that, but maybe if your opinions about the game weren't so drenched in cynicism you might be able to see something from a different perspective. I totally get why you don't think the game is good right now. "Culture of limitation, Can't do amazing things, no additions to the game, staff are assholes." I even agree some of those points have validity(and have posts on this forum to back that up). But you seem to be viewing the game of the past with some thick rosy glasses because it was WAY worse before. So what if a handful of people were able to do some of those things you quoted. Those stories are rare, and even back then they usually only happened due to favoritism.
It's telling that every time I come to disagree about this same exact topic the go-to counter is that I'm a brown-noser or delusional or stupid. You think I'm the one who can't see reason but you can't even come to accept a differing opinion without resorting to dramatics.
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Mar 19, 2016 12:54:47 GMT -5
you seem to be viewing the game of the past with some thick rosy glasses because it was WAY worse before. So what if a handful of people were able to do some of those things you quoted. Those stories are rare, and even back then they usually only happened due to favoritism. I just called sanvean a nutbag who was overly paranoid and literally would get people in trouble for sharing ICQ numbers. That's some stone cold fruitcakery right there. If I was looking at the game through rose tinted glasses I'd have had nothing but praise for her. I don't. I see her equal portions coocoo for cocoa puffs and an amazing leader. Also it wasn't a handful of people. The handful were the rare ones who got their own merchant houses and were coddled by the imms any time a threat came their way. Those were the select, rare few. But for the majority in those days, you were not just welcome to carve your niche in the game world, you were encouraged. That's what the game was practically about. New tuluk is literally a hodgepodge of player contributions all jumbled together and the result of many pcs actions during the final days before limitation took over. It wasn't just one or two players who contributed to clan docs, it was many over a long period of time. I'm happy to give credit where credit is due and criticize those things that are deserving of criticism. The imms in those days were wildly abusive. They didn't even try to hide the fact that they were cheating. I've attested to this countless times. But I also can see the forest from the tree and recognize that despite their horrifically glaring faults they had some very powerful strong points as well. Strong points that are lacking in the current game. The reason I think you would benefit from posting less for a while is you obviously have a really shitty reputation. Here and elsewhere. I repeat, reevaluate and refine your opinions. Take some time to cultivate your perspective on things. And above all, grow up. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2016 13:19:35 GMT -5
you seem to be viewing the game of the past with some thick rosy glasses because it was WAY worse before. So what if a handful of people were able to do some of those things you quoted. The reason I think you would benefit from posting less for a while is you obviously have a really shitty reputation. Here and elsewhere. I repeat, reevaluate and refine your opinions. Take some time to cultivate your perspective on things. And above all, grow up. You seem to know and care more about my "reputation" in this community than I do. Maybe focus on yourself instead of projecting your opinions on everyone else. Grow up, stop posting? I find that humorous considering the only reason I'm here posting is because I was directly spoken of in a post about being a delusional staff apologist. You are willing to accept that the game was flawed before but you just can't comprehend how someone would prefer the issues of now to the issues of then. I'm sorry we disagree. And I'm sorry you feel the need to attack me repeatedly. But I'm not the one in need of maturing in this conversation. I think this is a good place to leave you to keep on with the hate-churning, cynical obsession you seem to have. |
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 19, 2016 13:45:30 GMT -5
I'm pretty damn sure I've seen RGS disagree with current staff on something before, in his defence, and he actually has played some pretty cool characters with real depth and imagination. I know maybe in the past he's been unwarrantedly shitty to someone, but, I'm sure we all know that feel. Things ARE going on in the game, staff IS driving plots, but I'll tell you this, unless those are the kind of plots you like, you likely don't want to be in on them.
I am not in good standing with staff, I am banned from the game and the GDB. I'll tell you this, if you make a good impression of a dangerous scoundrel with more than a few dimensions those plots, being pushed by staff and managed by players, will find you. My last PC was an indie c-elf working out of Red Storm, go figure, and after more than a bit of effort, I was getting a glimpse into these things, talking with nobles and merchant house higher ranks about various concerns. I don't know why you can't see this, but my natural instincts tell me you're either not getting in on them because your PC dies a short time in, so you don't end up with the contact base large enough for someone to drag you, kicking and screaming, into their plot, your character has a crappy personality, or somehow you're not generating enough interest in yourself to end up involved. All of these elements, while not bad by any means, are completely under your control.
Honestly, though, I think it would be more fun to just run silly indie plots of little consequence, let them live and breathe, and see where they go, far from staff attention. Someone has to breathe life into them, they won't exist for their own sake, and if you find yourself sitting at the bar with a bunch of grunters and squitners, shake things up a little, make things interesting for them, you might be surprised where it goes. Tell a story, try to sell some random item in your inventory, have a panic attack from some childhood trauma or something. When there are no plots around, I make them. And people like that and seek it out again and again. My PC's name, while trying to keep a low profile, was known far away because others would talk about that interesting and strange elf they met at the bar. It got me more than a few kind favors from people they'd never even met before. Do things, and people will see, they will come from far and wide to get in on your seemingly innocent little plot, and the next thing you know, you'll be up to your ears in shit going on.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 19, 2016 13:51:10 GMT -5
Then there's players who will just think you're weird and kill your PC. I usually find this in areas with more staff control. I'm not entirely sure but I think they get a subconcious small amount of preferential treatment from staff. Yeah, I agree with you, Jesantu, staff are rude as donkey balls. They seem to be working on it, but there's still a very long road ahead of us.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Mar 20, 2016 0:56:15 GMT -5
Yes. I believe the game is the best it has ever been. I'm sorry it's so hard for you to believe that, but maybe if your opinions about the game weren't so drenched in cynicism you might be able to see something from a different perspective. It would be easier to believe you're not a brown-noser or contrarian if you actually explained how you can believe that instead of immediately pivoting to going back on the attack. What's the metric for "best" you're using? If it's player numbers, you're objectively wrong. If it's player contributions, you're objectively wrong. If it's player activity vs. inactivity levels, you're objectively wrong. It's literally not a matter of opinion. So please elaborate on in what way the game is the best it's ever been instead of claiming it's some totally subjective matter over and over again. That would do wonders for making it seem like you 1) actually believe it's the best ever and 2) give people some idea why you could believe that. |
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Mar 20, 2016 1:14:30 GMT -5
Yes. I believe the game is the best it has ever been. I'm sorry it's so hard for you to believe that, but maybe if your opinions about the game weren't so drenched in cynicism you might be able to see something from a different perspective. It would be easier to believe you're not a brown-noser or contrarian if you actually explained how you can believe that instead of immediately pivoting to going back on the attack. What's the metric for "best" you're using? If it's player numbers, you're objectively wrong. If it's player contributions, you're objectively wrong. If it's player activity vs. inactivity levels, you're objectively wrong. It's literally not a matter of opinion. So please elaborate on in what way the game is the best it's ever been instead of claiming it's some totally subjective matter over and over again. That would do wonders for making it seem like you 1) actually believe it's the best ever and 2) give people some idea why you could believe that. +1 |
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jesantu
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 388
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Post by jesantu on Mar 20, 2016 1:14:46 GMT -5
I don't believe RGS to be brown nosing. He's being reflexively contrarian. He can be critical of the current game administration but only when it benefits him to contradict someone else's point.
Here's an awesome analysis of the kid I dug up just now googling the phrase reflexive contrarian:
If that doesn't define RGS (and quite a few other GDBers) then I don't know what does.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 20, 2016 2:48:58 GMT -5
Yes. I believe the game is the best it has ever been. I'm sorry it's so hard for you to believe that, but maybe if your opinions about the game weren't so drenched in cynicism you might be able to see something from a different perspective. It would be easier to believe you're not a brown-noser or contrarian if you actually explained how you can believe that instead of immediately pivoting to going back on the attack. What's the metric for "best" you're using? If it's player numbers, you're objectively wrong. If it's player contributions, you're objectively wrong. If it's player activity vs. inactivity levels, you're objectively wrong. It's literally not a matter of opinion. So please elaborate on in what way the game is the best it's ever been instead of claiming it's some totally subjective matter over and over again. That would do wonders for making it seem like you 1) actually believe it's the best ever and 2) give people some idea why you could believe that. It is a subjective matter, tastes and opinions usually are. But it's definitely one I have no problem explaining. First though I'll tackle why I'm not using your metrics. Player numbers feel the same as they've always felt in-game. That is to say, I have to put the same effort in as always to find where people are playing and join them for fun, some clans are full, some are empty, some weeks we're getting 75 players on, some were getting 30. If there are quite a few less players I can't tell, and that could be for a number of reasons(closing Tuluk being one). But the thing is, player numbers really aren't that low. Contributions? In my experience shit being added or changed by players has never been what made Arm fun for me, because that's a process I've never found myself willing to dredge through. I think that option should be available for others though, and it still is in some capacity, just not of the build your own GMH variety. Has this gotten worse? I can't tell you. Not sure how you're measuring player inactivity/activity levels. Likely the same story here as for the other two though. These are things that measure how living or active a game is, not how fun it is... I'm sure some of the start-up RPI's that are sprouting up can attest to that. I'm always for more players though, don't get me wrong. They're fine metrics for judging the health of a game's playerbase, but not so much for judging the fun that game provides. So that is what my metric is: Fun. Who would have thought, right? Basing my enjoyment on a game by the fun it provides me instead of a bunch of arbitrary numbers. What makes the game fun for me? Enjoyable players to roleplay with and a fun code-base to do shit in when others aren't around. The biggest improvements from the game I played 8 years ago to now is the code, and character depth. Code I really shouldn't have to explain, it's objectively better. Character quality though? Back in the day it seemed like there were a handful of veteran characters who were around for years, and there were noob characters, but there wasn't much in-between. The throw-aways were all cartoon characters ala Cpt. Laurentide or walking-talking penises. These days character quality, and the roleplay because of it, is higher than back then, people treat the realism in-game way more seriously and that's great imo. When I started everyone was trying to be cool, end of the world know-it-alls. You could practically taste their IC desire to participate in the "end of the world" plots. Magickers were fucking rampant and everyone thought they had the coolest cantrips, and dark/haunted backgrounds, but were seldom more than shallow mary-sues. In short Roleplay. And the code that supports that roleplay. They've both gotten better and they're both what makes the game enjoyable for me. I think a large part of this is a product of Arm being the only big RPI. A bunch of decent to good quality RPers from other games like SOI and Atonement are here now. Other things that have gotten better: The amount being written, built and added to the game. Dedicated builder roles were a brilliant idea. Master Crafters from the extended subguilds in every shape and size are adding cool new items. Gith becoming playable and their area and docs being heavily fleshed out. Staff openness and communication, Nyr stepping down. Rath stepping up. Removal of Tuluk.(I know there's plenty of disagreement here, but I was asking for it for a long time before it finally happened. I could probably go on, but I've spent way too much time on this post as it is. Jes, it's nice to know you haven't let up on trying to diminish my opinions yet instead of just offering a counterpoint or attempting to argue with what I've said. At least you're sticking to your guns. Also, all you have to do is search my posts on this forum to find examples of me giving staff shit without being contrary to anyone. |
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 20, 2016 5:22:48 GMT -5
Yes, but at the same time, it's becomming clear, in Nyr's absence, who the problem staffers are with how they interact with players, while, I aknowlege it's fucking terrible, at least Urinemoos and Nyrgal have to come out and make themselves know, whereas, everyone use to just hide behind Nyr when unpleasantness needed to be done...
And then there's the fact that the docs were entirely fucktarded from the get-go.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Mar 20, 2016 5:27:42 GMT -5
I see potential growth, I hope there is some, but I don't think there can be in that toxic environment, shit has to start over, fresh, with new staff. so, RGS, would you be down for athasmud.com/ ...? I bet you would, in fact, I could almost place a bet on it. do eet. |
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Post by BitterFlashback on Mar 20, 2016 22:46:58 GMT -5
It is a subjective matter, tastes and opinions usually are. But it's definitely one I have no problem explaining. First though I'll tackle why I'm not using your metrics. You don't have to worry on selling me on that; I ruled them out as being your metrics in the first place. I'm not going to bring them up further. These are things that measure how living or active a game is, not how fun it is... I'm sure some of the start-up RPI's that are sprouting up can attest to that. I'm always for more players though, don't get me wrong. They're fine metrics for judging the health of a game's playerbase, but not so much for judging the fun that game provides. So that is what my metric is: Fun. Who would have thought, right? Basing my enjoyment on a game by the fun it provides me instead of a bunch of arbitrary numbers. I believe this is the point where what's being debated winds up being about different topics. People like myself, jesantu, and OT view Arm as in a place of recovering from a near-death experience, and when we talk about where Arm is at we mean in terms of the overall survival or thriving of the game. When you say the game is in the best place ever, you mean it's currently the most enjoyable for you and people like yourself. I suspect that's a fairly large chunk of the disconnect. The biggest improvements from the game I played 8 years ago to now is the code, and character depth. Code I really shouldn't have to explain, it's objectively better. Character quality though? Back in the day it seemed like there were a handful of veteran characters who were around for years, and there were noob characters, but there wasn't much in-between. The throw-aways were all cartoon characters ala Cpt. Laurentide or walking-talking penises. Ehhh... as someone who originally started playing in the late 90's, I can tell you I'm never going to agree that the best role playing is going on today, but I will definitely agree it's thoroughly recovered from where it was at in the aftermath of Armageddon Reborn. I completely agree about the state of the code. |
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 21, 2016 0:54:44 GMT -5
I'm just talking about the palpable stagnation in the game. The way you can log in for hours during peak and ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is going on anywhere that can be accessed. Just total silence and inactivity. Peak hours and there are 0 players in the Red's, 0 players in the Trader's, 0 players in the Gaj. Clans do nothing outside their private spheres, plotlines involve only a select few people and are kept carefully private. Boring characters, no story, no meaningful staff presence.
I don't know what's going on in the Tablelands because literally nothing makes it out of that place. I haven't heard of anything whatsoever that happened there, so while it may or may not be fun to be there at the moment (I have no idea), I also stand by my assessment that moving focus to that secluded and restrictive area was a catastrophically terrible idea for the rest of the game. Maybe if a similar effort was made for Allanak, the supporting pillar of the game, but clearly that's not the case. I don't know what the southlands staff is doing, but it's certainly completely invisible to the naked eye and causes absolutely no ripples whatsoever. What's going on these days that a new player would even notice, let alone have the opportunity to get involved with on a meaningful level?
This is why I can't take it seriously when somebody says "well, I'm having fun" as if it was somehow an argument against all that. As if that made the current state of the game acceptable. The numbers have been okayish since Nyr left (though I note that it sat in the 40s during today's peak hours; hardly impressive, especially for a weekend) but this is due in large part to the fact that Armageddon is the only really functional RPI on the market. It's painfully obvious that players of Armageddon, by and large, are stuck and uninspired.
Some nifty code updates don't fix that. It papers over the cracks. Stuff like new subguilds is not what solves the problem, because the problem has nothing to do with the code. I don't even specifically blame Reborn, because while Reborn made things weird as hell for a while and left the game in an unhealthy post-coital slump, the current issues aren't THAT strongly related to it. The current issues stem from the fact that staff has conditioned the playerbase to suck, and are themselves failing horribly at fostering a thriving and entertaining roleplaying environment.
To say that the game is currently the best it's ever been is akin to saying that the last few seasons of Dexter were the best of the show. It's so insanely wrong, so violently contrary to the truth that it frankly boggles the mind. The game is so inert and so bereft of meaningful roleplay that it can't gain players even when there's literally no other RPI in good condition. It says something that this genre lost every other major title and Armageddon still did not manage to gain players. That's because the game has become boring and hopeless, and denying this contributes to the problem by hindering the search for solutions and enabling staff in continuing to do what has brought the game to this state.
This thread's title is 'how to seize plot reins,' but I posit that there are no reins to seize; at least not in Allanak, the would-be backbone of the game and home to most of its clans. I don't mean that there's no plot material at all, but it's so weak, undersupported and inaccessible that it has no real effect on the game. If Allanak is neglected in favor of more remote locations, staff priorities have failed resoundingly. It also seems painfully unnecessary as the game has so much staff that it is inexcusable to not be able to maintain the most central area of the game.
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