Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2016 12:26:24 GMT -5
Do we agree that Templars, nobles, lieutenants, agents and tribal leaders drive the majority of imm plots? I've seen sergeants have mixed success getting any traction.
Do we agree that between zero and two independent at any one time have "the ear" of staff?
Do gemmed ever get this access without holding rank in oash?
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shik
staff puppet account
Posts: 17
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Post by shik on Mar 16, 2016 12:47:12 GMT -5
Seems totally obvious to me!
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,670
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Post by delerak on Mar 16, 2016 13:03:45 GMT -5
You don't have to be high rank to drive a plot. But honestly who gives a fuck about plots? I never really played Arm thinking "Wow such plots." I played to kill shit and get loot. Also to explore, not once have I ever told myself.. man I really loved that plot or this plot. Plots are fucking stupid. Just have plenty of shit to kill, plenty of loot to gather and plenty of shit to explore and the plots will naturally come, you don't need any skills to create a plot they just happen on their own, that is human nature.
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Post by jcarter on Mar 16, 2016 13:53:34 GMT -5
You don't have to be high rank to drive a plot. But honestly who gives a fuck about plots? I never really played Arm thinking "Wow such plots." I played to kill shit and get loot. Also to explore, not once have I ever told myself.. man I really loved that plot or this plot. Plots are fucking stupid. Just have plenty of shit to kill, plenty of loot to gather and plenty of shit to explore and the plots will naturally come, you don't need any skills to create a plot they just happen on their own, that is human nature. this but honestly, what's the point of a plot at this point? nothing is going to change and it's easier to just get what you want through IC means for the majority of cases because there's no coded support. lord soandso is a dick to lady whosit, so she makes a plot to kill him. nothing changes. mages go out hunting for secret altars. nothing changes. there's enough animals to kill/salt foraging/food for everyone involved, so any threats to economy are out the window. i guess if you're a PC burglar and another burglar keeps looting apartments before you, but tbh you may as well just wait out the crim code. if you want you can run plots like @rougerogueranger where you kill tulukis, but the outcome of that is people just roll more tulukis. you may as well set up your own 'plots' in other video games, where you play a peace-loving panda like that dude in WoW who hit max level doing nothing but picking flowers. in fact i'd argue that plots are detrimental to any rational actor playing the mud. very, very few have any benefits that outweigh the risks beyond doing things for the hell of it. going out on missions as a byn runner, for example, is more detrimental with zero benefits than just hanging around and sparring up to be a decent fighter. if it sounds like I'm against 'plots' as a concept, i'm not. plots only work in sandbox environments where there's something to be achieved. look at Eve and the backstabbing wars and treacheries for measurable gains. but Arm doesn't have anything like that. go be the greatest byn lieutenant ever and make tons of fortune, stomp out indie merc groups for the hell of it or w/e, but absolutely nothing will come of it. you're not going to expand the Byn, or improve the facilities, or make an impact on the future of the clan. all you did was kill time.
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Post by jcarter on Mar 16, 2016 13:56:01 GMT -5
also most templars have jack shit influence. you can lead RPTs and such but your resources are going to be scarce, your combat skills are subpar, and lol templar magick is at best situationally dependent, and at worst useless. the only thing status in arm lets you do is shit on and stomp out people of a lesser common rank than you. you can never actually build or create anything, your power and influence is limited to kicking over the meager sandcastle someone else built.
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Post by someguy on Mar 16, 2016 14:53:11 GMT -5
Do we agree that between zero and two independent at any one time have "the ear" of staff? This isn't true. Do not agree.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2016 15:00:51 GMT -5
Do we agree that between zero and two independent at any one time have "the ear" of staff? This isn't true. Do not agree. What kind of independents can drive plots with imm help? Guild specific? Days played? Known veterans? Cool rp?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2016 15:01:46 GMT -5
You don't have to be high rank to drive a plot. But honestly who gives a fuck about plots? I never really played Arm thinking "Wow such plots." I played to kill shit and get loot. Also to explore, not once have I ever told myself.. man I really loved that plot or this plot. Plots are fucking stupid. Just have plenty of shit to kill, plenty of loot to gather and plenty of shit to explore and the plots will naturally come, you don't need any skills to create a plot they just happen on their own, that is human nature. this but honestly, what's the point of a plot at this point? nothing is going to change and it's easier to just get what you want through IC means for the majority of cases because there's no coded support. lord soandso is a dick to lady whosit, so she makes a plot to kill him. nothing changes. mages go out hunting for secret altars. nothing changes. there's enough animals to kill/salt foraging/food for everyone involved, so any threats to economy are out the window. i guess if you're a PC burglar and another burglar keeps looting apartments before you, but tbh you may as well just wait out the crim code. if you want you can run plots like @rougerogueranger where you kill tulukis, but the outcome of that is people just roll more tulukis. you may as well set up your own 'plots' in other video games, where you play a peace-loving panda like that dude in WoW who hit max level doing nothing but picking flowers. in fact i'd argue that plots are detrimental to any rational actor playing the mud. very, very few have any benefits that outweigh the risks beyond doing things for the hell of it. going out on missions as a byn runner, for example, is more detrimental with zero benefits than just hanging around and sparring up to be a decent fighter. if it sounds like I'm against 'plots' as a concept, i'm not. plots only work in sandbox environments where there's something to be achieved. look at Eve and the backstabbing wars and treacheries for measurable gains. but Arm doesn't have anything like that. go be the greatest byn lieutenant ever and make tons of fortune, stomp out indie merc groups for the hell of it or w/e, but absolutely nothing will come of it. you're not going to expand the Byn, or improve the facilities, or make an impact on the future of the clan. all you did was kill time. I'm grumpy too. How are -we- going to constructively approach the problem?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2016 15:02:10 GMT -5
Seems totally obvious to me! Not obvious to me. What did you mean, other than snark?
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Post by jcarter on Mar 16, 2016 15:17:37 GMT -5
How are -we- going to constructively approach the problem? by playing another game and giving support towards alternative RPIs. seriously. i don't think there is any way to solve the problem in Arm itself. it's not in our hands to change, because we're not the people running arm. we can't alter the policy they've set down because we don't have the tools of capability to do so. Arm is what it is. staff have chosen to run the game like that. that's their prerogative. i personally do not like that aspect of the game which is why i don't play it. if other people do, good on them and keep enjoying Arm. but you should expect that tenet of the game to change as much as you should expect an overhaul of the combat or skill system.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2016 15:40:12 GMT -5
Seems totally obvious to me! Not obvious to me. What did you mean, other than snark? ... what? Here's basically how I read this: A - 'I think this' B - 'I totally agree with you!' A - 'Not agreeable to me. What do you mean you agree, other than snark?'
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Post by someguy on Mar 17, 2016 7:55:32 GMT -5
This isn't true. Do not agree. What kind of independents can drive plots with imm help? Guild specific? Days played? Known veterans? Cool rp? To keep this constructive... Have a realistic idea / plot that is simple to start with. Put in work, hours, etc. This can be a few to days. Keep staff updated with regular reports w.o asking them for help (maybe one question w. feedback on how it sounds). Make sure your plot INVOLVES other players. That's a major key. Not 'once the plot happens', but in the lead up. Not just with minions. But with others. Put in the work. Be patient. And it will happen as long as you are REALISTIC. In my experience (largely good) as an indie constructing and running plots, the best way to go about it is find an area in the game BEFORE YOU MAKE YOUR PC that is lacking / under represented in the practical sense (not in the virtual sense). It's very very possible as I've had three indies whove all built and drove plots. The last one pretty much won Armageddon a few times. That's not a brag but me making the point that not only is it possible but once you get going, staff WILL help and push you. On the REALISTIC note... Don't do something plot wise that could be potentially game breaking. Don't put together a group of magickers that could lead to something way imbalanced. Don't try to blow up Luirs. Don't try to come up with something that will require hoards of code work OR EVEN A LITTLE CODE WORK... use the tools available to any indie and start there. If you do that... and do it well and manage to keep alive and ppl involved, all that staff-side stuff will come. So really, it starts with two things at the -very- beginning. You. And the idea behind your character. Keep it simple, considerate to the game world and realistic. It's very possible though, especially now. The game the past two years (apart from some hang-ups) is very very good and staff, compared to when I first started, have been excellent.
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 257
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Post by OT on Mar 17, 2016 9:43:33 GMT -5
There are two types of plot.
One is the silly Cluedo style nonsense where staff plant something for people to pursue, and that's always bullshit, both because you then depend entirely on one staff member's time and because everyone can see how contrived it is. Plots that don't spring from emergent roleplay are not interesting. It needs to be the result of actual in-game events revolving around player characters, otherwise it's just a kind of RP-within-RP where you pretend that you care about something in order to try to inject some purpose into character interactions.
The game actually tends to have some of that type of plot at all times because it's trivial for some storyteller to come up with some bullshit about a virtual serial killer leaving corpses in the street for soldiers to investigate, or something to that effect. But it's not really that satisfying to be part of, and it can by definition not lead to very much actual gameplay because you depend entirely on that storyteller's attendance as the plot doesn't continue on its own.
The other type of plot comes from emergent roleplay, usually without staff involvement. In fact, it's almost always better without staff involvement as we all know how bad that tends to be for players. This can be something like a startup spice dealing crew that doesn't give a cut to the Guild, someone preying on Atrium students, independent merchants selling so much armor that Salarr starts to see them as genuine competition, etc. That's the type of "plot" that actually keeps the game entertaining and creates gameplay and stuff for players to do for more than the hour a week that a storyteller could have provided.
This is what should be standard fare on an RPI. It only really deserves to be called a plot because the game lacks that kind of roleplay so severely that it's hugely unusual when it happens, attracting so much attention that it tends to be shortlived as so many players will be desperate to get involved, invariably leading to most getting killed as the game is so crammed with codedly powerful characters with nothing to do and a yearning to put their power to use. And that issue stems from the fact that throughout Nyr's tenure, Armageddon's playerbase has been held down, conditioned to accept that they can't do anything, and have had all their ambition and inspiration drained from them as staff has been systematically rejecting and kiboshing everything remotely unusual that anyone has tried to do.
As a result of this, nobody makes waves. Nobody has the drive and proactivity to begin anything like this, we've spent the last eight years learning that it isn't possible. Therefore, on the extremely rare occasion that something noteworthy does happen, it stands out so starkly that it just burns out before it can become really interesting. People are so starved for worthwhile roleplay that it just gets overrun anytime there's the first sign of it. It has become a vicious cycle, but it's one that staff created and one that they need to mend.
To fix this, staff needs to make a deliberate and honest effort to encourage player endeavors and support player initiatives. Forget about Tablelands RPTs and missing copper nuggets and whatever the fuck it is they think is keeping the game active. That stuff takes up 3% of people's time and leaves them with nothing to do the rest of the month. You can't work with that, you can't continue with it after the fireworks are over.
What the game needs is ground-level activity and space for players to do things that others care about, and since staff is responsible for running that out of the game, they should also be responsible for reinstating it by promising the players that their efforts will be supported again. Then, when people are once more doing things that matter, you can go back to the monthly mantis attack style of RPTs. Those are fine, but not when it's the only thing that happens in the game.
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OT
Displaced Tuluki
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Post by OT on Mar 17, 2016 9:58:11 GMT -5
How are -we- going to constructively approach the problem? by playing another game and giving support towards alternative RPIs. seriously. i don't think there is any way to solve the problem in Arm itself. it's not in our hands to change, because we're not the people running arm. we can't alter the policy they've set down because we don't have the tools of capability to do so. Arm is what it is. staff have chosen to run the game like that. that's their prerogative. i personally do not like that aspect of the game which is why i don't play it. if other people do, good on them and keep enjoying Arm. but you should expect that tenet of the game to change as much as you should expect an overhaul of the combat or skill system. Really the issue is that every time this comes up, people will queue up to tell you how you should roleplay to make shit happen. They won't accept that it's a problem with the game, it's always the player's fault and failure; but the fact remains that nobody is making waves, the game is so stagnant and boring that this topic keeps coming up here and on the GDB, but there's enough yes-men and humblebragging karma-fishers who are willing to insist that the game is perfect, for self-serving reasons, that staff doesn't feel any pressure to acknowledge the problem. The addition of extended subguilds has only increased the incentive to whiteknight and be anti-change in order to curry favor and plead for karma, which is hugely unhealthy for the game. It's the age-old problem: players know that praising the game and its staff is profitable (in karma terms) and are willing to do it enough that it literally hinders improvements to the game as any piece of criticism is instantly picked apart by a horde of Lizzies. Armageddon is notoriously hostile toward change, at least anything remotely consequential, so problems linger for years and years because every time somebody points them out, 50% of the community tells them they're wrong, not because they are wrong but because disagreeing with criticism is rewarding. This is something that future RPIs need to be conscious of. If you cultivate a community culture where people have a reason to attack all criticism and proposed changes because they feel that they're rewarded if they look like they think the game is perfect as it is, that's hugely detrimental to a game's continued development. Considering how much staff Armageddon has, it has improved and modernized so laughably little over the years that it almost beggars belief. Armageddon has evolved less in ten years than other MUDs do in one year, despite having often five times as much staff.
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
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Post by grumble on Mar 17, 2016 13:56:18 GMT -5
I personally find that when constructing, maintaining and driving plots, the important thing to do is recognize there's a player with real human emotions on the other end. Don't try to do anything stupidly huge that will draw too much attention. Play to play, not to win, your character is more than some lame-ass mary sue, your personal ego should not be a factor in how you play. Immerse yourself fully in the role and people will see it and come to you. Make a name for your character, a reputation, and it will spread, and all those bored people who lack motivation will come to you, because YOU'RE making things happen, and they want in. Most importantly, keep staff out of your plots because they will usually have a different idea of what's "fun" and a very rigid perception of what's going on, as well as what's right and wrong. In my personal oppinion, what's "fun" isn't always in line with the docs, but, as it's a game, fun trumps the documents in many cases. This doesn't mean be an edgy rule breaker, try to work with the docs when you can, and when it makes sense, either bend or break the rules, make that a bit of character development. I don't see any problem with being a special snowflake, so long as you at least try to adhere to the docs, as long as it makes things fun for other players.
Keep in mind, you're not playing for you, you're playing for other players, this will bring you the enjoyment you seek from the plots you create, as you want it to be a successful plot that's fun for all involved, don't paint yourself into a corner where you absolutely cannot avoid ruining fun. I find keeping backgrounds brief and flexible will help, and developing the character retroactively from your perspective of what would be most fun for players involved to be more rewarding. Find the plots, get involved, make things happen, and don't be afraid to display weaknesses, or lose. Unstoppable murder machine edgelord 9000 has been done so many times it's pretty goddamn boring and anyone who wants to be involved in your plots is likely to be unfun as well. If you meet one, it might or might not be a good idea to try and change them, or it may even be more sensical to relocate to another part of the gameworld. Keep things fun, interesting, thought provoking for those involved and you will find youself wrapped up in so many plots it'll be unreal.
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