Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 9:29:40 GMT -5
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grumble
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toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
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Post by grumble on Jan 26, 2016 9:53:03 GMT -5
Look, guys, I'm not calling anyone an idiot, I'm just saying there's a lot we don't know about what happened, and unless anyone has any proof of rampant transferrance being used to indiscriminately murder PCs all the damn time then we're just spitballing here. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that its most recent usage was somehow justified and required a good deal of plotting and preperation, and wasn't simply some whiran that came out of nowhere over some OOC Ruke grudge.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 11:53:00 GMT -5
Look, guys, I'm not calling anyone an idiot, I'm just saying there's a lot we don't know about what happened, and unless anyone has any proof of rampant transferrance being used to indiscriminately murder PCs all the damn time then we're just spitballing here. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that its most recent usage was somehow justified and required a good deal of plotting and preperation, and wasn't simply some whiran that came out of nowhere over some OOC Ruke grudge. If I'm reading these tirades right grumble some people aren't upset that the PC got PKed. They're only upset with the method, which they feel is a lame use of a spell they don't think should exist at all because it can be used lamely (even though only two people have posted so far including myself who can recollect it being used to PK, a total of twice in the past 5 years).
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
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Post by delerak on Jan 26, 2016 11:53:20 GMT -5
i am the cream
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 15:27:46 GMT -5
Look, guys, I'm not calling anyone an idiot, I'm just saying there's a lot we don't know about what happened, and unless anyone has any proof of rampant transferrance being used to indiscriminately murder PCs all the damn time then we're just spitballing here. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that its most recent usage was somehow justified and required a good deal of plotting and preperation, and wasn't simply some whiran that came out of nowhere over some OOC Ruke grudge. If I'm reading these tirades right grumble some people aren't upset that the PC got PKed. They're only upset with the method, which they feel is a lame use of a spell they don't think should exist at all because it can be used lamely (even though only two people have posted so far including myself who can recollect it being used to PK, a total of twice in the past 5 years). It doesn't really matter how often it gets used. Also, due to the "vanish without a trace" nature of the spell, you can't use the number of cases that you know of as proof of how often it happens. There could be ten times more than that where the victims just didn't tattle. Regardless, the only point that really matters here is that a spell was removed because it was objectively broken and bad for the game, and it turns out that there's another spell that does virtually the same, checking all the boxes that caused Summon to be removed from the game.
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Post by High Sun Freeze Gun on Jan 26, 2016 15:29:07 GMT -5
Summon kept me from getting killed by Dargan. Because said Whirran summoned me into a hole.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 15:42:52 GMT -5
Summon saved Hekro, too. Warlord Kharad and Great Lord Samos caught me after Kharad tried to kill me in the Barrel. While pleading for a chance to die in the arena with a weapon in hand instead of in some dungeon, I was Waying the Guild boss who prepped a Whiran rescue. So while Samos and Kharad were agreeing to my request (out of grudging respect, I vainly like to think), I emoted nut-kicking the NPC soldier that was holding me, succesfully fled to break subdue (max flee), ran outside the building, and psi'ed 'Now!' -- I vanished just as Samos came running in. It was so fucking satisfying. However, it's also evidence of just how completely bonkers the spell was as a Whiran could simply choose to summon anyone to some fatal fall, or to a pit with five gated monsters or something to that effect, with the only requirment being that the target was outdoors.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 15:49:20 GMT -5
the funniest shit i have ever seen on Arm is when Quick and Ginn stood outside a portal in the darkness of Undertuluk and threw daggers into it at Kharad, killing him.
that was after the Tor executed the thin, tall man, which wasn't too long after Hekro was gone.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 16:09:31 GMT -5
Reminds me of when I killed your Guild Nilazi. It must have been only a couple of months later. You were high 24/7 so your roleplay was batshit insane and sometimes barely intelligible. I had an assassin and was a green-rag in the Guild, together with WarriorPriest's PC and some third guy. One day you demanded that we go through a Nilaz portal for some reason, and we were like "fuck no" and you threatened to kill us if we didn't. So I backstabbed you down to poor, and without planning, the others promptly dogpiled you. I looted your endurance ring and fled to Tuluk where some fucking Jihaen spotted it through my gloves with peek and confiscated it.
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dcdc
Shartist
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Post by dcdc on Jan 26, 2016 16:50:26 GMT -5
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Post by chaosisaladder on Jan 26, 2016 18:15:55 GMT -5
Only ever seen one Whiran IC. One elkros, too. You know, if I grinded up a badass archer and taught him to use poisons, its fine if I catch you out on the wastes and pick you off from three rooms away. If I've got the gear and training to make stealth an invisibility cloak, and I stalk you to your room? Also fair. My first assassin died because I went through the effort of trying to emote while chasing down my target. He spammed movement away, and I got taken out by other players later. I was a bit unimpressed at the time, but I've come to realize that pvp in Arm is a game of rocket tag. You'll almost never have two equally skilled players fighting each other on fair terms. BUT, in most cases, even if you're Squishy McMerchantson, there are precautions you can take. Even if that precaution is 'don't piss people off' or 'stay in public.' What is not acceptable is giving one high-karma class the equivalent of a long-range, no countering 'kill button.'
Its not even interesting. The spell by its very nature leaves me no one to rp with. It makes no goddamn sense for the class to even have. Is the business of 'true names' and global presence the mark of wind? By that logic, a krathi should be able to bomb you from orbit with solar flares, because the sun has sight of you during daytime hours. Its silly. "Its an available option so don't be butthurt when I use it" is a very antagonistic approach to a roleplaying game. We're all here to explore concepts and enhance each other's experiences, I hope. A roleplaying game isn't really something to "win." Thats just my perspective, though. Even if it was competitive, a no risk 'maybe you'll die' is not a good thing to give anyone to just send out.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 18:36:21 GMT -5
Reminds me of when I killed your Guild Nilazi. It must have been only a couple of months later. You were high 24/7 so your roleplay was batshit insane and sometimes barely intelligible. I had an assassin and was a green-rag in the Guild, together with WarriorPriest's PC and some third guy. One day you demanded that we go through a Nilaz portal for some reason, and we were like "fuck no" and you threatened to kill us if we didn't. So I backstabbed you down to poor, and without planning, the others promptly dogpiled you. I looted your endurance ring and fled to Tuluk where some fucking Jihaen spotted it through my gloves with peek and confiscated it. Dude are you sure you weren't high? we went down in the crypt and two of you fuckers automatically destroyed my ass... I had no idea why it happened and figured it was just some OOC bullshit to get his rang and whip. Heh, I was so pissed... But I can't say shit considering at least one PK I have done, and that involves Dan's northern assassin and Murk the mul behind closed doors in the Kadian estate. To be fair, Fathi's freaky Salarr put him up to it, but I always felt bad about that. Anyway, Dan didn't hold a grudge and wound up giving me a hookah from his deployment in Afghanistan, heh. Armageddon wouldn't be fun without murder or the prospect of murder. Edit to add: and Nilazi guilders probably need to have way better OpSec than I did, but it was a weird time during the game when all that shit was popping off.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 18:44:02 GMT -5
When I made that Nilazi, I was coming back from a break, and it was because mansa said he was playing in the Guild. He didn't elaborate too much, though, and I was blown away by what was going on when I showed up.
There was Gin, Quick, a female psionicist, mansa's psionicist, a mul, various magicked slaves... It was fucking weird as hell. But so damn fun.
It was actually Dust the defiler, who is now an emergent RL actor, who had given him that damn ring... Just so much supernatural shit going on.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jan 26, 2016 19:16:45 GMT -5
Look, guys, I'm not calling anyone an idiot, I'm just saying there's a lot we don't know about what happened, and unless anyone has any proof of rampant transferrance being used to indiscriminately murder PCs all the damn time then we're just spitballing here. It's perfectly reasonable to assume that its most recent usage was somehow justified and required a good deal of plotting and preperation, and wasn't simply some whiran that came out of nowhere over some OOC Ruke grudge. Whether or not a magic bullet gets used a lot -or if its use was justified- has nothing to do with if it should be in the game at all in its present state. I don't think most people here want Whirans nerfed. We're just throwing around ideas to balance out one bad spell so it's like other actions a high-powered character can take to snuff somebody. That got a bit lost in the contrarian haze... If you read my original post, my suggestions for fixing the spell (and fixing Summon so it can be put back in) were even less harsh than smokey's fixes and he didn't originally want anything done. All I believe needs to be done is throw in some genuine I-might-lose-my-character-but-it's-pretty-unlikely risks to both spells and we wouldn't even be discussing it anymore. Actually, let me grab the suggestions so far and quote them here (if I miss anyone, link me): These are all equally valid solutions. - Essentially remove transference from the game, as summon was.
- Turn transference into an "offering" of movement, in the sense that the target can choose "yes" or "no" to a prompt to activate the spell. This would maintain the benevolent aspects of the spell.
- When the Whiran casts the spell, they effectively "give" their magickal conditions to the target. E.g. if the Whiran is levitating and invisible, then the target is now levitating and invisible where the Whiran was, and the Whiran loses those active spells where the target was. This would need some further tinkering with spell mechanics and the sort in able for me to be satisfied with it.
Likewise, I don't believe pulling Summon out of the game was the best move staff could have made. They should have figured out limits to apply to it to make Summon less absurd. The same goes for Transference. For example, casting either spell should require you to be within a certain range of the target. Higher casting power means bigger range, and cap the range lower in cities than outdoors to account for all the shit in the wind's path. You shouldn't be able to cast either spell across zones unless both are outdoor. That will make it much harder for a Whiran to find the perfect spot on Zalanthas to drop you from a whole world away, but still allow them to fucking murder you by setting up a kill room within a reasonable distance. Both spells should have fail conditions that expose the caster to real risk. Say a fail meant having a number of these effects applied based on how badly you failed: 1) losing a positive spell you're affected by, 2) being teleported somewhere random or teleporting to your target 3) disorientation delay on executing commands ... then you'd eliminate the reality that Whirans take no risk on a skillfail with casting. Add to that critfail pentalty modifiers: you always lose a positive spell affect silently, you always teleport, and you always get a disorientation delay. 1) Transference can only be cast when on the ground. Sure, doesn't get rid of the invisibility problem, so lets handle that in point 2 with an OR 2) OR Transference can only be cast while visible, but can still be cast while flying, although only at a hight of 1 room from the ground.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 26, 2016 19:19:20 GMT -5
I like BF's suggestions a lot.
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