dcdc
Shartist
Posts: 539
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Post by dcdc on Jan 24, 2016 14:17:24 GMT -5
Next whiran I play, I'll abuse this, and I hope I get half you fuckers with it. And then, when I'm laughing behind my fortress that is a monitor, I'll sip my cool-aid, pop a zit, and do it again, knowing that somewhere, in some small corner of the world, I just ruined your day. Although this made me fucking lol. |
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098 
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Post by punished ppurg on Jan 24, 2016 14:29:22 GMT -5
OK, back. Magick isn't much of a tool-set when there's an instant risk-free kill button on hand. Why use anything else but that trick ever again if you want somebody dead? Whirans should be more of a utility guild IMO, and they should have to use that mobility they have as a strategy. They should have to think on their feet, whether those feet are in the air or on the ground. Magickers should have a lot of power, but they're obviously not supposed to be one-trick ponies, or they wouldn't have such extensive spell lists. I'll chime in to say that I agree with this train of thought, Prince, and magickers do need to have power through utility and not be one-trick ponies. However, for Whirans, they are basically a one-trick pony in that they can kill anyone, anywhere at anytime (barring explicit circumstances) with just a little preparation and a few spells. That is what Whirans do, and that is what Whirans are sought after in-game for the ability to do. And if a Whiran's player, for some personal reason, won't go through with this pitifully designed avenue of assassination (e.g. refuse to be a bad player) then their character is going to be punished for being "useless". And I know this to be true, because I've seen it happen in-game: not recently, because I'm no longer at a clan-leader status, but still. They are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
In response to smokey , Let me put this foremost: I believe there are players in this game who have no care for the enjoyment or experiences of other players. I'll refer to these as bad players. Sadly, these players have the potential to get karma; I would go so far that they have a better chance of getting high karma, or "trust", than I do. These players don't engage in any higher level of thought, or appreciation of the game medium; instead, they are connecting to this game with the sole intent of griefing and ruining the accomplishments of others. And this activity is encouraged, and even praised, by the toxic backwards-think of the GDB anti-community aided by the malignant shadow cast by the hostility of certain (former) staff members. These individuals I would identify by name in a heart-beat if I could, and avoid them; they add less to the game than they ruin for the sake of fulfilling some juvenile impulse.
Because I knew one of your ilk would eagerly jump to the defense of maintaining whatever slim method available of ruining another player's work in this medium. Theres a reason Whirans were bumped UP the karma scale, and if you feel unfairly put upon because of a whiran, feel free to complain about the method used, Nyr may not be there anymore, but I'm pretty sure the response will be no less caustic and uninterested. You're essentially complaining about how magick can kill you without you getting a chance to fuck the mage over......ITS FUCKING MAGICK, it's supposed to be powerful, it's supposed to be scary, it's supposed to be able to kill you without you doing a fucking thing about it. Don't want die to it, don't piss of the mage. (My emphasis.) Then, just after-- And as I stated before, if you feel like someone is abusing the trust given to them by unfairly using coded advantages, complain, it's what it's there for. I'd like to think that most the staffers now are fairly level-headed and forward thinking. Essentially, these two statements are at odds; but I wouldn't expect your train of thought to stay consistent in any logical sense. We should complain to the staff, and then be told to shut up and sit down. The posts earlier were right; you'd be an excellent admin. I'd want to play the game you're running, and the game you want to build. It's not like those toxic policies and outlooks nearly caused Armageddon to die recently last year, which was only saved from the brink by the Grand Poobah Nyr being ousted. Let's not even detail the attempt you've made at a slippery slope fallacy in order to discredit my original point. I'd hazard a guess that if you told us your GDB handle, you'd be a pillar of the anti-community that the GDB has degraded into. You have no appreciation for other players, and their investments of time into this medium; you have no sense of game design, and balance; and you obviously have no sense of maintaining a logical argument, as evidenced by the last five pages of your pissing into the wind. You are the epitome of everything that is wrong with Armageddon, and I hope for the sake of us that truly enjoy this game, you find some other, more popular medium to further live out your power-tripping fantasies. Aside from all that, welcome to the Shadowboard. It looks like you've easily adapted to your new role as a mindless contrarian. |
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Post by jcarter on Jan 24, 2016 15:37:28 GMT -5
someone else pointed out earlier about how retarded it is that a 4 karma mage could branch transference and use it willy-nilly with no criticisms but god forbid a 0 karma assassin use backstab, essentially the core skill of the class and only real reason to play it, on a rat to make the 10+ day grind into not being completely useless less of a slog.
i feel like that's a pretty good statement on the overall game design aspects of arm.
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
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Post by my2sids on Jan 24, 2016 15:40:27 GMT -5
Whirans are 6 karma now. Best change to Armageddon in the past 10 years.
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Post by hurrrrrrrrrr on Jan 24, 2016 15:44:36 GMT -5
Summon has been out of the game for what, two years? I feel like you might be stretching on how awful Transference actually is. This is the first time I've heard of someone using it for a gank in nine years. And I'm pretty sure back then it could literally hit anyone, anywhere, anytime with the sole caveat of being able to contact them. My memory might be faulty, though.
The 'explicit' circumstances that outright block the spell are fairly broad. Unless my memory is failing me.. visibility to caster, being indoors, being in a city? Does anyone know if that extends to settlements? It's been forever since I played a whiran. It's also one of the most complicated spells in the game. Nobody is going to successfully cast it without OOC knowledge (which sort of counts people being ICly generous with their OOC knowledge). In fairness, anyone playing a whiran has probably sucked someone's dick at some point to get dem juicy deets.
Don't get me wrong, they're probably the most bullshit-heavy guild in the game. Nerf away. If you think Transference is bad, you've never encountered Stalker spam. I just think you could make a better case for this without hyperbole and liberal use of empathetic bolding. Keep it realistic.
People are going to do dumb shit to kill characters they perceive as untouchable. Sucks for Ruke, but I'm pretty sure if we compare 'long lived PCs w/satisfying deaths' to 'long lived PCs w/bullshit deaths' the ratio would be something like 1:8.
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tcbz
staff puppet account
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Post by tcbz on Jan 25, 2016 1:20:32 GMT -5
Hurrrrrrrr's comment seems spot on. One high profile death in years is not worth making such a fuss about. Especially without knowing all the facts.
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Post by latrineswimmer on Jan 25, 2016 3:16:05 GMT -5
Hurrrrrrrr's comment seems spot on. One high profile death in years is not worth making such a fuss about. Especially without knowing all the facts. Yeah, I don't really see this get abused like summon did. This is the first time I have seen this in a gank in 6 years. (Summon many times). Trying to take away more Magicker powers would be a bad step for the game, and Imms scrutinize Whiran PKs quite closely. I don't play Whirans and I do find them to be codedly the strongest class. But Git gud. Everyone whines about full sorcs removed then whines about a Whiran spell which has many conditions to it. Whirans are 6 karma guys. Rightfully so too. Jesus. Don't fuck up the game with your contradictory too much magick/not enough bullshit. Also I have never been dumped on for using backstab on animals. The Imms have grown up on that and even Nyr himself said backstabbing animals was fine. |
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jan 25, 2016 3:55:40 GMT -5
waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitaminute. all this is because ruke's player is butthurt over his jargon-inspired character getting whira-stomped?  ?? isn't Ruke's player. If smokey bothered making sure he wasn't talking out his ass, he might have noticed that. punished ppurg has a long history of talking game mechanics/balance here. That said, Ruke's player was on discord the night it happened, and he seemed pretty okay about the whole thing.
The difference I've noticed about this board and the offical board is you guys seem to like re-hashing the same arguments you've been having for...20 odd years Funny, considering you blindly rattled off the old, "Oh you're just butthurt about what happened to your character lolz pussy" argument to someone who wasn't the victim of what he was complaining about. Perhaps these arguments would stop happening if they were met with something other than the same worthless dismissals you sheep have been bleeting for decades. Someone wants to discuss changing game mechanics/balance? PUBLICLY FUCK THEM TO DEATH. That will definitely not cause the argument to keep happening. A moan, a pisstake, somewhere where impotent little children can come and bitch about how unfair life is because OMFGWAT someone got game better than they do. There's a complaint tool on the website, for you to complain, to staff. Not to some fagheads who couldn't see progress if it bulldozed their mothers basement. Says the man crying foul on a forum the staff supposedly don't even read. Why aren't you using the complaint tool? Look, I get that you're one of these sad-sacks who vehemently defend anything that doesn't personally bother you about the game by bitching about people who are complaining about it. I understand you're only doing this because years of GDB programming have left you incapable of suppressing your urges to whip out that e-peen you're so proud of. Really, I get it. The problem with your behavior I can't ignore is that you brought your chafed asshole to a game mechanics discussion where being a contrarian bitch won't net you favor with the staff. Do you really want to see a 20 year old argument end? Obviously not, but let's pretend the answer was yes. Stop trying to shut it down by being an asshat using insults as old as the internet. Attack the premise or offer better ideas instead.
Transference is not no-risk. The only time there's no risk is if everything is in the exact right spot, under the exact right circumstances, and remains that way til the transference is complete. Since there's no guarantee that will happen, there is at least - some risk. Stop equivocating. There is absolutely zero risk that the whiran will be killed by their target, which is what all of the other comparisons were about. That doesn't even take into account that there's zero risk to the Whiran if they get a fail, which is untrue of all the shit you've lumped in with it. |
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jan 25, 2016 4:22:25 GMT -5
Double-posting in the hopes of re-railing the original discussion that got buried in contrarian stupidity. I wouldn't support nixing a spell from a guild that already had one of their spells removed recently unless it was going to be replaced by something else. Magick is supposed to be a tool-set, a powerful one, but a tool-set. And yes, I do believe in "muh scary" to a degree. If magick isn't scary and extra-powerful, it stops looking like magic. Hold on, I'll go kill myself for that opinion, brb. I completely agree. I can remember the old days when elementalists were the biggest pussies in the game. They could get rofflestomped by a newb warrior because of all the retarded limitations on casting. It took a lot of changes to actually make them dangerous, but it's also natural that there would need to be further changes to add some risk back to being a mage. I'll get into that in a minute. It's not so much that I'm butt-hurt that Whirans are able to kill easily and safely as much as I am annoyed by how cheesy and boring that tactic is. I don't blame the players for using it, but it should be replaced with something more fun for both Whiran and victim. I don't think the tactic is wrong so much as it needs to have some sanity and risk added to it. I actually disagree with punished ppurg's suggestions because they all nerf the Whirans too much. Nobody fears a class that can't murder them regardless of what the docs tell them to be afraid of. Likewise, I don't believe pulling Summon out of the game was the best move staff could have made. They should have figured out limits to apply to it to make Summon less absurd. The same goes for Transference. For example, casting either spell should require you to be within a certain range of the target. Higher casting power means bigger range, and cap the range lower in cities than outdoors to account for all the shit in the wind's path. You shouldn't be able to cast either spell across zones unless both are outdoor. That will make it much harder for a Whiran to find the perfect spot on Zalanthas to drop you from a whole world away, but still allow them to fucking murder you by setting up a kill room within a reasonable distance. Both spells should have fail conditions that expose the caster to real risk. Say a fail meant having a number of these effects applied based on how badly you failed: 1) losing a positive spell you're affected by, 2) being teleported somewhere random or teleporting to your target 3) disorientation delay on executing commands ... then you'd eliminate the reality that Whirans take no risk on a skillfail with casting. Add to that critfail pentalty modifiers: you always lose a positive spell affect silently, you always teleport, and you always get a disorientation delay. I think that would result in both reducing abuse and reducing the feeling that Whirans basically have a magic bullet. Yes, a skilled Whiran will have very low odds of getting penalties, but that's not the point. There just needs to be the same sense of risk other guilds have. |
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grumble
GDB Superstar
toxic shithead
Destroyer of Worlds
Posts: 1,619
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Post by grumble on Jan 25, 2016 8:14:15 GMT -5
it's my current understanding that murdering someone with transference requires a fuckload of conditions to be met, line of sight, both victim and mage in contact with eachother, I could have misunderstood that, but if that's the case... it's no wonder the last time anyone heard of it being used as a PK tool was six years ago. If someone manages to kill you under those circumstances, you should send kudos.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 8:23:40 GMT -5
Some of what you're saying is already true Bitterflashback. IIRC as long as your fail isn't a "lose concentration" kind of fail, you lose your components with failure. It can take thousands of sids to buy them from players or days and even weeks of foraging (which is definitely not risk-free) to find them yourself and charge them even if you have a good component crafting skill. So losing two different components per cast is a big deal. I don't remember seeing any dead whiran who had more than one extra of each of those in their inventory when I looted their corpse. I know I never had more than one extra in mine when I played a whiran. Lots of whirans don't keep extras at all because of how hard it is to acquire the charged finished products.
I think it's just a feeling that Whirans have a magic bullet. I don't think that's a reality based on my experience playing one and my experience observing other whirans. A "sense of risk" isn't the same as an actual risk. You perceive that it's easy. I'm saying it's not easy.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 8:34:08 GMT -5
Whirans can forage while invisible. it might suck to forage for a RL day, but you can still do it while invisible... and you can fly there.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 9:34:37 GMT -5
And again invisible doesn't mean immune. There are mobs that can see invisible and PCs who can see it through high scan and detect invis spell. Lower risk than not being invisible but still a risk. The argument is that there is zero risk to Transference. I and others posting on this thread are saying this is not true. There is risk. There's risk in the preparation process and there's risk to the actual spell. There's risk for failure to cast it, and there's risk to successfully casting it.
It's not the level of risk some players wish it would be but it's still a risk from start to finish.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 25, 2016 10:53:46 GMT -5
It means immune to 99% of what might threaten a character. There's nearly nothing that can happen to an invisible character. A select few NPCs, and max-scan rangers, that's it. The odds of any such thing happening to be at the point of arrival, ready to react and stop your instant escape, are virtually zero. You swap places and simply walk away immediately.
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dcdc
Shartist
Posts: 539
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Post by dcdc on Jan 25, 2016 11:33:31 GMT -5
A Krathi has to be in the same room as you, to rain down fire balls, had to hope they can get their cast off
A Rukkian has to buff himself up, if he quake everything in the room attacks him, still doesn't have weapon skills.
A Elkrosian has as well to be the same room, get off a cast.
A vividuan, same deal, same room, hope ya get your cast off.
Drovian? They got ethereal and maybe a poison dagger, same room, in melee, hope they get their curse/blindness cast off.
A Nilaz? Still has the portal in, try to get a cast off, or try murder you in melee.
All of the other classes 'scary magick le harsh armageddon' classes take a load of risk in a PK.
Whiran's got a magick bullet when you add their levitate and invisible, that is beyond silly. Shouldn't a Nilaz be scarier? The prospect of a Krathi walking in and reducing you don't to your component molecules a bit scary?
Nah not nearly as much as the the Wind Witch. I suspect, anyone playing a newb wind witch is going to have a hell of a time avoiding PK's before they twink up
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