my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341 
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Post by my2sids on Jun 26, 2015 22:43:27 GMT -5
It's my assumption that things "were done" about this complaint, but call me optimistic. It's always been their policy to not share details about that sort of thing. Just like they aren't releasing info about staff members they've kicked off staff for grevious misuse of authority.
Not to say they're burning anyone at the stake over this. I can see them make adjustments to policy, though.
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Post by Amos's Boots on Jun 26, 2015 22:47:19 GMT -5
It's my assumption that things "were done" about this complaint, but call me optimistic. It's always been their policy to not share details about that sort of thing. Just like they aren't releasing info about staff members they've kicked off staff for grevious misuse of authority. Not to say they're burning anyone at the stake over this. I can see them make adjustments to policy, though. if it's true they've ever kicked members off staff for grievous misuse of authority, Nyr should be long gone by now. If not demoted to storyteller. |
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Asan
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
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Post by Asan on Jun 27, 2015 0:08:25 GMT -5
Empty apologies, with no tangible improvement visible. This mistake will continue again and again, because staffers are incapable of bringing themselves to recognize how afflictive Nyr's assholishness is to the community.
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Post by latrineswimmer on Jun 27, 2015 0:16:16 GMT -5
I respect Adhira's response here. Staff admitted they had a fast reaction that wasn't entirely reasoned.
I am satisfied.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 0:17:46 GMT -5
Well, obviously she wasn't going to agree to those things, but the fact that dozens of players over the last handful of years have had more or less the same complaint, and that this still goes completely unacknowledged by them, is damning.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
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Post by Jeshin on Jun 27, 2015 0:37:28 GMT -5
Given the demanding statements you made in the followup request I think that Adhira did respond appropriately. She acknowledged a staff mistake, but only after you got every single complaint denied. So that's a mixed bag. I know if some player "demanded" I remove staffers I'd probably stonewall them too. Player complaints matter, but player demands are something most game owners and senior staff have a need to resist. This is obviously a teeny bit difference because Nyr has probably the majority of the staff complaints ever submitted attributed to him. I believe Anaiah quoted a % once when she was a staffer.
If I were participating in the conversation, I would probably inquire to Adhira why Nyr (who has numerous complaints, logs of his bullying, and inappropriate behavior) is still a high ranking staffer and why he has never been asked to issue a formal apology to the playerbase as a whole. Probably the most valid question anyone can ask her is does she believe the work Nyr does outweighs the complaints against him?
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Asan
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
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Post by Asan on Jun 27, 2015 0:56:39 GMT -5
Jeshin, using the information I've posted here, you can submit a staff complaint and make the inquiry, and join in the conversation. Because I'm more or less through.
This is the only community I can think of where one of the "producers" will admit there was a mistake, and then nothing will be done about it.
There is no use in assuming something was done -- "dozens of players over the last handful of years have had more or less the same complaint, and that this still goes completely unacknowledged by them". If steps were taken before, I wouldn't have been in this situation... There's no indication that steps will be taken now.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Jun 27, 2015 1:04:55 GMT -5
Yeah I'm not going to bark up that tree. Not only do I not play Armageddon (and haven't seriously played in years), but even if I were to make a complaint I was not involved and they'll just say. You have no basis for a complaint and decline it.
I'm not saying what Adhira is doing or has done is right. I am saying that given policy, past actions, and what we know about the staff disposition that she responded about as appropriately as was possible. There is also the very very very unlikely potential that people were reprimanded behind the scenes. Is it possible, sure. Do I think someone was given the finger wag, probably not given certain staffers high positions on the totem pole.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jun 27, 2015 2:37:12 GMT -5
I think that's a pathetic excuse for not trying to open a polite dialogue with staff and only perpetuates the problem some players have communicating with staff. I tried to offer a polite dialogue. I was treated as a waste of time, and told to shut up and get over it. You either need to read my complaint.zip, or browse back through the request tool and jog your memory. Ah, no, see... that's your mistake. Contrarians like this person and @ghaati (at least leading up to the recent Arm burnout that seems to have knocked a lot of the white knighting out of him/her, which I applaud) do not actually have any idea what they're talking about. They endlessly make up arguments and criticize things you may have never even done in order to exhaust you with their demands you prove their proofless clownshit wrong. Do not make the mistake of believing you are confronting a rational person who is engaged in anything resembling an honest debate.
I'm not saying what Adhira is doing or has done is right. I am saying that given policy, past actions, and what we know about the staff disposition that she responded about as appropriately as was possible. I suspect it was more that -- given he's over here airing their dirty laundry -- Adhira's decided to put on her diplomat hat.
I made a poll not that long ago asking players if staff should readdress their resurrection policy. Most people didn't want it: gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49543.0.html I liked it so much I immortalized parts of it in Gems From the GDB.
I have to say I am amazed at how many people will voluntarily play a permadeath game and then complain when they, or PCs they liked, die. You're completely right. It's absurd to play a game with permadeath and complain when the hidden rules turn out to be insane and the deaths are entirely retarded. Why would anyone complain about the code, whose functionality is hidden from the players and cannot be discussed, occasionally defying all logic in a game that's supposed to be immersive? I mean if people were really that pissed, they'd quit playing that game. So obviously the OP is a massive hypocrite for-- oh wait, sorry. I forgot that's exactly what Asan (the OP) and numerous other members of this forum did. This happened over a month ago, and up until recently the OP has not only been chafed about it and made drama about it on the GDB, but was able to recruit PCs to replace the ones he lost and then some. It's shameless bullshit like this that mark you as staff or someone angling for staff favors. Complaint: "3 players had a bad experience in their roles and I feel bad about what they went through." Response: "You got 3 new players playing those roles! Also more players!" Bleat that at someone else, you fucking sheep. As to the rest of your post, it serves as a perfect lead-in to something I only saw sirra touch on briefly, but which I think really should be explored. Well, almost perfect; I had to cross out your bullshit color commentary and the various bald-faced lies you told that are in stark contradiction to the logs/complaints you didn't read. Since apparently no one else in this thread is aware and the OP is apparently being intentionally obtuse, I will say this: the situation that the OP is describing in the very beginning is misrepresented. There was political turmoil in Allanak , and any player in Allanak at the time could have figured out there was political turmoil. The HG was ordered by another NPC templar to grab a PC , and the OP in turn ordered the recruits to attack because, as most leaders are, he was too hesitant to go into direct combat himself. And if all the recruits involved hadn't been killed by the unit, they would have been killed by the HG, the templar, or the unit that was on the NPC templar's side. This wasn't staff being unfair: this was staff trying to run a non-lethal scene that got interrupted by the OP's frankly stupid orders. The precise circumstances of which unit killed who don't absolve you or other PCs of potential consequences.So here is the question I'd like to pose to everyone: What was the staff goal for this "scene"? What was it they expected players to do that didn't involve defending a PC templar? Both templars were blue robes, so there's no reason to assume the players would believe the NPC had the authority to have their boss subdued. So... what was the plan? Apparently reasonable, who is claiming not to be a staffer, insists this scene should have been non-lethal. Okay. Non-lethal. Hm... then what was supposed to play out? Were the PCs supposed to just stand there? I mean, Allanak was changing, and Nyr always says to be the change, so how did the staff intend for them to act in that scene to be any part of it? Were they only supposed to "ooo" and "ahh" at the staff bad-touching a PC so much higher above their station, so they are reminded that the highbloods are untouchable (ignoring the lowblood HG touchabling their highblood PC boss)? What was their non-lethal plan the PCs fucked up? To be honest, I think the staff expected them to come to their PC templar's aid. I genuinely believe what the PCs did is what the staff wanted them to do. I also believe that the reason they have so much sand up their asses on this one is because Cav's ignornace of the crimcode is what caused this massive clusterfuck and they're too arrogant to admit it. Yeah, Eur rezzed a PC he killed with a typo with the damage command (harm? hurt?), but that's a lot less embarrassing than admitting a cock-up of this order. I suppose there's another possibility if we throw out the presupposition this was meant to be non-lethal. I suppose it's possible they wanted the PCs to die; it wouldn't be the first time. The staff do love killing PCs to involve players emotionally in events they can neither influence nor give two shits about. I just think it's a lot more likely the imms shit the bed on this one and are trying to blame the dog. Anyone got a convincing alternative? I would love to read an explanation for what the staff expected the PCs to do that 1) wasn't what they did and 2) makes sense. Because I have yet to see one word about what the imms intended to happen that the PCs thwarted. |
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Jun 27, 2015 4:01:59 GMT -5
Since apparently no one else in this thread is aware and the OP is apparently being intentionally obtuse, I will say this: the situation that the OP is describing in the very beginning is misrepresented. There was political turmoil in Allanak , and any player in Allanak at the time could have figured out there was political turmoil. The HG was ordered by another NPC templar to grab a PC , and the OP in turn ordered the recruits to attack because, as most leaders are, he was too hesitant to go into direct combat himself. And if all the recruits involved hadn't been killed by the unit, they would have been killed by the HG, the templar, or the unit that was on the NPC templar's side. This wasn't staff being unfair: this was staff trying to run a non-lethal scene that got interrupted by the OP's frankly stupid orders. The precise circumstances of which unit killed who don't absolve you or other PCs of potential consequences.bolded part for emphasis. the hg who 'would have killed' the pcs was unarmed, and this was the entirety of the damage done by him in the entire fight; |
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Post by shadowmember on Jun 27, 2015 6:10:57 GMT -5
This is why EVER allowing character resurrections is a bad idea (IMO). I've died in similar circumstances due to my ignorance of the code. I wasn't brought back to life. I got over it and didn't chuck a tantrum.
Allowing any character resurrections is a mistake because it inevitably results in disagreements as to which situations do (and don't) warrant a resurrection with it being easy to throw around accusations of favoritism. If they just never allowed resurrections none of this situation would never have happened.
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splugh
staff puppet account
Posts: 21
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Post by splugh on Jun 27, 2015 7:12:30 GMT -5
This is why EVER allowing character resurrections is a bad idea (IMO). I've died in similar circumstances due to my ignorance of the code. I wasn't brought back to life. I got over it and didn't chuck a tantrum. Allowing any character resurrections is a mistake because it inevitably results in disagreements as to which situations do (and don't) warrant a resurrection with it being easy to throw around accusations of favoritism. If they just never allowed resurrections none of this situation would never have happened. Actually, I would say all they need to do is define, finally, what counts for a rezz. Put it out there, explain, at least to a characters clan mates if not the ENTIRE playerbase, why a rezz was given when it is done. It's cleared up. People won't expect more. The rules are laid out instead of a vague, 'if a couple of us think it should be done.' Then the cries of favoritism are gone. It's simple. Hold yourself accountable OOCly for OOC things. That's all they have to do. Instead of trying to make people work around and deal with OOC things ICly. The recruits died in a situation that any military would not have reacted that way. Would they have been punished? Maybe because they did break a rule and it's the military. But wouldn't have been particularly harsh and would have been more hand service to show they followed the rules and are enforcing them. That's real life. Having to deal with the fact that now all the NPC soldiers are so untrustworthy you get nervous when they are around due to an OOC reason known as crim code and clan code, is way more immersion breaking then having three people brought back to life if they chose to. Having buggy code means they should have rez's. And if they remove those things, and work on removing human error, then the rules will sit there getting dusty because they will end up doing what you want, not rezzing anyone. Because there is no reason to do so. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 8:18:02 GMT -5
popcorn.gif
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 9:57:37 GMT -5
It's kinda difficult because if you're lenient with rezzes, people will demand them all the time; and if you're stingy with rezzes, people will complain about unequal treatment -- often rightly so, because the more convoluted you make the criteria, the harder it is to correctly administrate. I can see valid arguments from both sides.
And now to some random shit because I'm bored on a train.
I remember back when Pearl got killed. Granted it's been like eleven years or something like that, but as I recall, she was simply assassinated in a tavern. Staff rezzed her, citing that she had been killed "illegitimately," by which they meant that it wasn't some grand assassination plot planned out by established characters but rather some random people looking to murder a famous person. But it was more than one PC, it wasn't just one twink, so some interaction had gone into it.
There was a lot of controversy over that. Obviously, just about everyone who has played Arm for more than a year has had a character PKed for absolutely no reason by a player who blatantly just did it to rob you of your character, not because they had a realistic reason to do it. Normal players don't get rezzed for that, but Pearl (later to become the admin Naiona) did as she was openly known as the staff pet and was one of the longest-lived PCs the game ever had, founder of the Atrium and House Terash (this was a different time, you could actually have an impact on the game back then).
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 11:20:18 GMT -5
I believe that whatever face is saved by handing staff discipline privately is more than countered by two factors. One, it is too easy to believe that nothing was done, and that staff exist in an untouchable state despite adversarial or biased behavior. Second, I doubt there is any chance Asan will ever play in one of Cavaticus' clans again, just like I wont play under Rathustra again. I've known at least two people who have left Arm because they dont believe they can get a fair shake from Nyr, and because its impossible to get out of his sphere of control.
This is part of what I'd like Arm staff to realize (in a perfect world that doesnt exist). They can use heavy handed methods to win arguments and save face in the moment, but their ensuing reputation damages the populations and interactions in their clans.
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