Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon.

amateureschatologist
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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 25, 2015 22:24:00 GMT -5

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Post by amateureschatologist on Jun 25, 2015 22:24:00 GMT -5

Jun 25, 2015 22:06:51 GMT -5 @armqwertytwo said:

I read the log. And I gotta agree. Those characters shouldnt be resurrected. But ... what they should've had is a message from staff, explaining what exactly happened, maybe even helping them complete the scene and be done with it. Instead they chose to be an asshole about it aaaaand ... lost a player? Very nice.

Yeah, I think this is basically it.

I agree that there probably shouldn't be resurrections in this case, but also that the staff handled it in a super shitty way.

Also, it's way past time for a serious review of crimcode. It's so binary as to be entirely useless and stifles so much roleplay (and leads to so many stupid deaths) that a total overhaul is justified.

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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 25, 2015 22:46:27 GMT -5

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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 22:46:27 GMT -5

This wasnt even the crim code itself at fault. It was the clan AI itself. The npcs auto-assisting their clannies, etc.

Truth be said. The imm really reacted slow. I mean yeah, the recruits were stupid to attack, but the imms had the time to at least save 2 out of 3 by mass disengaging, changing opponents, etc. Honestly, if you're going to run a high volatile plot, be prepared for PCs to do stupid shit.

And Anan. Those Recruits 'do' deserve to die for making that mistake. Irrelevant of the crim code, they were supposed to be following their Sargeant. When a General yells, "Attack". People dont just randomly start running forward. I mean they do, but those armies lose. They follow after their unit commanders. That's basically the sargeants function, to execute their generals commands in a way that their unit is most capable of.

This scenario is basically akin to a Byn going Silt Horror hunting and when a silt horror shows up, a 3 day newbie attacks it first and insta dies. Everyone (silt horror included) suddenly spend a tick studying the corpse and contemplating the shortness of a foolish life.

Asan
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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 25, 2015 22:48:27 GMT -5

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Post by Asan on Jun 25, 2015 22:48:27 GMT -5

This scenario is basically akin to the Byn going Silt Horror hunting and when a silt horror shows up, a 3 day newbie attacks it (after two other NPCs and the PC Sergeant does) and then is killed by other Byn there hunting the Silt Horror.

You're framing an inadequate comparison. Why can't you recognize it for what exactly happened, instead of trying to frame it as something else?

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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 25, 2015 22:57:21 GMT -5

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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 22:57:21 GMT -5

I dunno? I just read the log and frame it from that.

HG subdues a Templar.
Templar yells "Kill the fucker"
2nd Templar gained command over the HG and orders him to release it.
A recruit breaks out of formation of a battle group and attacks the fucker.
It's unclear if it's due to 2nd templar's order, or due to HG being attacked, but HG released the Templar and focused entirely on the recruit.
The other two see it happening and follow after him.
The HG, and other NPCs commence to fucking up all the recruits due to auto-assist code.
Sargeant watching the idiocy commence yells everyone to pull the fuck up.
1st Templar fails to 'order followers disengage'
2nd Templar fails to 'order followers disengage'
Staff fails to 'order followers disengage'
recruit dies
recruit dies.

LEEEEEROOOOOOY.

Asan
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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 25, 2015 23:04:34 GMT -5

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Post by Asan on Jun 25, 2015 23:04:34 GMT -5

It's really easy for you to pick the log apart, but you've got no real reference of the amount of time that transpired through action to action (mostly happening one on top of another), along with the screen-scroll that appeared.

The amount of thought you're applying to it was impossible to understand in the moment.

Also, the half-giant doesn't manage to hit any of the recruits. Here's a clip of the log with all of "pudgy" involved.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier stands here.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier has arrived from the south.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier stands here.

The sleek, silver-bearded male looks up at the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier growls loudly as he charges through the frey, moving towards the sleek, black-haired templar!

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes looks up at the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier subdues the sleek, black-haired templar.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier exclaims, in sirihish:

You exclaim to the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier, in sirihish:

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier's A low but audible growl can be heard falling from his mouth as he picks the sleek, black-haired templar up in the air!

The emerald-eyed, bosomy woman growls up at the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier, readying her weapon.

The dawn-haired, bay-skinned templar calls to the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier for aid, and he strides to her side.

The dawn-haired, bay-skinned templar gives the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier an order.

A human Allanaki soldier attacks the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

A human Allanaki soldier solidly slashes the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier 's body.

The dawn-haired, bay-skinned templar says to the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier, in sirihish:

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier viciously throws the sleek, black-haired templar into the western gate!

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes raises his wyvern-hilted, tapered obsidian broadsword, moving towward the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The boyish, silky-haired Allanaki soldier joins the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier's fight!

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier shouts, in sirihish:

The lean, sharp-eyed soldier charges in to the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier's aid.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier releases the sleek, black-haired templar, who immediately moves away.

The silvering sleek-haired man attacks the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The silvering sleek-haired man bludgeons at the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier 's leg, nicking him.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier exclaims, in sirihish:

Chewing him out, you exclaim to the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier, in sirihish:

The sleek, silver-bearded male attacks the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The sleek, silver-bearded male bludgeons at the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier 's arm, nicking him.

The sleek, silver-bearded male lightly bludgeons the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier 's body.

A human Allanaki soldier swiftly dodges the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier's hits.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier lightly hits a human Allanaki soldier 's body.

You attack the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

You slash the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier very hard on his arm.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier shouts, in sirihish:

The silvery-blond-haired Allanaki soldier charges in to the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier's aid.

The lean, spike-haired woman viciously leaps toward the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier, but a pair of dark grey worm-hide leggings gets in the way.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier swiftly dodges the lean, spike-haired woman's hits.

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes hits the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier , barely grazing his body.

You wound the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier on his body with your slash.

The lean, sharp-eyed soldier rescues the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes hits the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier , barely grazing his leg.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier is here, fighting the rugged man with flint-grey eyes.

The emerald-eyed, bosomy woman is here, fighting the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes is here, fighting the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The sleek, silver-bearded male is here, fighting the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The lean, spike-haired woman is here, fighting the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The emerald-eyed, bosomy woman bludgeons the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier on his body.

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes hits the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier , barely grazing his body.

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes hits the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier , barely grazing his arm.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier isn't wielding a weapon.

The lean, sharp-eyed soldier tries unsuccessfully to dart in front of the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier.

The lean, spike-haired woman pierces the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier , barely grazing his body.

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes hits the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier , barely grazing his body.

You viciously slash the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier on his body.

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes hits the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier , barely grazing his body.

You viciously slash the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier on his body.

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes viciously leaps toward the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier, but a bloodied dark grey worm-hide cuirass gets in the way.

You viciously slash the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier on his body.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier crumples to the ground.

The rugged man with flint-grey eyes hits at the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier 's head, nicking him.

The body of the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier lies crumpled here.

The body of the pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier lies crumpled here.

Last Edit: Jun 25, 2015 23:16:20 GMT -5 by Asan

sirra Obsessed Player Posts: 960	Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 25, 2015 23:18:52 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by sirra on Jun 25, 2015 23:18:52 GMT -5 Interesting fact. The half-giant soldier NPCs aren't actually that great. A newbie elf assassin stands at least a puncher's chance of killing one. Of course, if they hit you, you're screwed.
	Last Edit: Jun 25, 2015 23:19:21 GMT -5 by sirra

Deleted Deleted Member Posts: 0	Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 25, 2015 23:43:38 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 23:43:38 GMT -5 Bah, these logs. One gets the notion of being damn near instantaneous, the last one feels a lot longer.

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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 26, 2015 1:49:25 GMT -5 BitterFlashback likes this

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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 1:49:25 GMT -5

I made a poll not that long ago asking players if staff should readdress their resurrection policy. Most people didn't want it:

gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49543.0.html

This whole situation blows, and the staff response to it ending up with you being force stored is enough to really pisses me off. They took something completely separate from your character or your ability to lead, and used that to judge your ability to play that character as a leader. They were unable to keep the discussions you were having about the incident separate from their ability to work with you elsewhere. It's incredibly unprofessional.

The fact that you asking for a resurrection and fighting tooth and nail for fellow clan member ended with you being deemed unworthy of leadership reminds me of some of the ass-backwards horror stories a good buddy of mine told about The Army and their bureaucratic nonsense. This whole situation makes staff come off so high and mighty and completely unable to show any objectivity.

Last Edit: Jun 26, 2015 1:50:29 GMT -5 by Deleted

alleys
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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 26, 2015 3:34:25 GMT -5

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Post by alleys on Jun 26, 2015 3:34:25 GMT -5

Of course @asan is right about code bugs, and asking for a resurrection. The situation would be nothing but silly in a tabletop rpg game. It's very unrealistic and surely one must put a lot of effort to justify the incident, and put in some logical background.

But, hey it's really a game and it has limitations. Even though those communications logs between Asan and IMMs are .. ugly and show of great miscommunication, I don't think it's easy to say IMMs are wrong in their first response. Then what I see is a great, mindless communication full of feelings with no empathy.

First I believe IMMs have every right to do whatever they want with the game, and surely one has every right swear and critize them about what they are doing. And thanks to this board, it can be done. It's a game, noone will burn himself if he is no longer allowed to play ARM.

Second I dont like reading a player saying "my effort for a PC". I know effort does not have to be skill based, but it sounds like it does. I don't feel like I am putting effort in any of my PCs. At least my expectation from my time is actually having fun not just running some powerful, well-connected character in a game of fantasy world. It's always sad to lose a PC, but fuck that's all the game is about.

Third when an IMM makes a silly mistake and some player loses a character, that's really a mess. There are some options, general idea on the posts is; resurrect them. I have a feeling they are having great debates (probably once again mostly unfruitful ones) about this because of ARM's past experiences. I read many on this forum complain about un-dying NPCs or IMM favourites. There must be smart ways to differentiate between favourism and error-resulted deaths, but it seems to me ARM IMMs do not have exact rules for it. For me, leaving all of them death would be the best solution.

Forth, after a game-master, DM, IMM, storyteller, judge, whatever you call game running people, gave a decision on a matter, it's almost impossible to change it. In other words, after an IMM offers an answer, even he later understands he was mistaken, I don't think it's easy (and maybe even right thing) to say to player "Alright, I am mistaken. You are right." In other words, after first e-mails, pushing matter further is no good for anyone. It just creates more frusturation to a degree that you may lose your moral ground.

-----

Those are what I think. Anyway, better to mention I am a totally off-peak player and almost never play with IMMs, but with other players.

In any case, I really hate force-store thing. It does not feel right. I wouldn't want to be in Asan's boot. Also after reading the incident once again, I think mistake was amazingly amateur one. Forgetting the crime-code limitations in civil war.. Peh.

Last Edit: Jun 26, 2015 3:43:29 GMT -5 by alleys

Cry 'Drama!', and let slip the dogs of war.

Patuk Shartist Posts: 553	Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 26, 2015 3:50:49 GMT -5 via mobile Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Patuk on Jun 26, 2015 3:50:49 GMT -5 Ah, christ. Way to ruin an otherwise good morning.

mesuinu
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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 26, 2015 3:57:23 GMT -5

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Post by mesuinu on Jun 26, 2015 3:57:23 GMT -5

I don't know. The RPT in question was a good while ago and if they only took until now to force store Dannet, they must have been trying to give Asan a chance to back down after the multiple nos they already delivered. Deciding he isn't able to work with staff in a leadership capacity based on that isn't entirely unreasonable, since they probably felt this issue would get in the way of handling forthcoming leadership issues in-game.

It sounds like Asan didn't trust staff and they didn't trust him back, especially after the forums stuff, which really seems to be a sore point with staff based on the existence of this board. While I don't disagree with Asan's intent, I think his execution could have been better and I understand why the imms didn't give the rezzes.

Crimcode killing the recruits and the subsequent loss of a player is just a huge shame and a good indicator the situation was overall mishandled.

That said, I really don't understand why the imm felt the need to use 'subdue templar' with a giant soldier to begin with, and iirc that wasn't the only instance a templar was subdued during that RPT. "A staff-animated NPC subdued a templar PC with no intent to harm" seems to be a very dubious claim considering

1) being subdued kills your defenses

2) attempting to break/avoid a giant's subdue is kind of hard and

3) who the hell would lay a hand on a templar like that if they weren't a rebel?

Was this actually something that was justified by some other obscure code reason? I sure as hell can't imagine an RP reason that would justify it.

Calling for major code overhauls is easy to do as a player. Making them happen is hard to do for anyone on staff. I doubt many interested in Arm these days are people with a lot of time on their hands and the focus to work on doing something like a crim code overhaul. I very much doubt staff thinks the crim code and various other weird Arm code quirks are ideal, and had they been easy to fix said fixes would probably already be implemented. In an ideal world code would perfectly reflect intent, but this is a game's codebase is ancient. And to hear tell, it was also written by a couple of bored teenagers? I can't imagine it's that easy to tweak. But maybe what they should do is call for coders. Or move to a new codebase. The latter is probably an even more unreasonable expectation, though, considering the effort it takes to make a mud.

Last Edit: Jun 26, 2015 3:58:00 GMT -5 by mesuinu

jcarter
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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 26, 2015 4:16:16 GMT -5 BitterFlashback, ghost, and 3 more like this

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Post by jcarter on Jun 26, 2015 4:16:16 GMT -5

couple of take-away points

1)banning on GDB for 'baiting' is pretty fucking lol, Asan's comments were nothing compared to the shit Nyr regularly churns out -- see nyr's greatest hits thread for reference.

2)at the end of the day, staff were taking out IC punishment on a player because he didn't get along with them. thats pathetic, even if you think they're a poor leadership character. ride it out and don't promote them next time, but honestly telling someone they can either stop playing their character or the character can receive a demotion is shameful.

3)the rezz policy is trash and depends on who's running things. i got a merchant house family member rezzed years ago when i died within 20 minutes of playing him because i drank cleaning fluid. no, maybe it's not easy to overhaul the shit quality crim code but as staff who are more than familiar with player angst and frustration with it you're in a role to alleviate it by rezzing characters in questionable situations like that.

splugh
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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 26, 2015 7:05:11 GMT -5

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Post by splugh on Jun 26, 2015 7:05:11 GMT -5

Jun 25, 2015 22:46:27 GMT -5 @armqwertytwo said:

This wasnt even the crim code itself at fault. It was the clan AI itself. The npcs auto-assisting their clannies, etc.

Truth be said. The imm really reacted slow. I mean yeah, the recruits were stupid to attack, but the imms had the time to at least save 2 out of 3 by mass disengaging, changing opponents, etc. Honestly, if you're going to run a high volatile plot, be prepared for PCs to do stupid shit.

And Anan. Those Recruits 'do' deserve to die for making that mistake. Irrelevant of the crim code, they were supposed to be following their Sargeant. When a General yells, "Attack". People dont just randomly start running forward. I mean they do, but those armies lose. They follow after their unit commanders. That's basically the sargeants function, to execute their generals commands in a way that their unit is most capable of.

This scenario is basically akin to a Byn going Silt Horror hunting and when a silt horror shows up, a 3 day newbie attacks it first and insta dies. Everyone (silt horror included) suddenly spend a tick studying the corpse and contemplating the shortness of a foolish life.

Wow. You do know that the Templars are the ultimate in rank above all other in the Arm of the Dragon right? You do realize that if your Sergeant says fall back and the Templar say Move Forward you move forward or die right? That whole argument is wrong.

But I suppose it is also the leader of that unit of soldiers who should be force stored for saying hey guyz letz killz our alliez. So...did they store that staff member?

As far as PC's doing stupid shit, the Staff member put those characters in a no win situation because they didn't make that half-giant rebel from the Arm of the Dragon. Also they didn't make sure crim code was turned off during the riots. Sorry but riots cause lawlessness and if a police officer isn't right there to stop someone committing the crime, that crime is basically 'gotten away' with. And I don't remember there being many situations where the police officers started shooting other officers, even if they were recruits or trainees, because said recruits or trainees were defending the police chief.

The whole thing is, as asan said, an abortion of logic. It's not how people react in real life. And not how soldiers react either.

I hope staff learned a lesson about how they should take the time to do a riot in a city with crim code. Because it's their fault and so is a lot of other deaths during that riot as well. And perhaps they should have stepped up and said, Hey we fucked up. If you want a rez then send us logs. We will review and give rezs where they are deserved. And then made up for their massive fuck up.

Everything you said is so fucking incorrect and painfully apologist that it makes my head hurt.

EDIT: And as far as clan code or crim code...who fucking cares. It wasn't right. It wasn't realistic. It wasn't even fog of war. A unit in the room with others, sees all the others, knows they are all on the same side doing the same thing. Someone shows up who hasn't been there and starts wrestling the officer and picking them up off the ground, growling. That new person gets his ass beat down. Whether it should have or not, if the half-giant had been beat down and his only concern was to get the Templar to safety...THAT would have been a case of friendly fire and fog of war. What this was, was not, was not handled how it could have been if the time to think beyond the story they wanted to shove down everyone's throat was even considered. If the staff is that far out of touch with how to play the game and not have insta-rez's and skill bumps at their own fingertips then I really don't think they should be playing. Also don't think they should be getting the chance to play major roles. They should be experiencing the game from the level of the majority. I.E. low karma, helper clannies that most people play. Especially since most of their plots are so ham fisted and stupid that they rarely even make sense.

Last Edit: Jun 26, 2015 7:38:46 GMT -5 by splugh

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Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 26, 2015 7:29:58 GMT -5 BitterFlashback likes this

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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2015 7:29:58 GMT -5

The staff member was the only one genuinely in the wrong in that scenario. The players could have handled things a little better if they were more experienced and knew the code better, but that's not exactly something you can just expect of them, especially given how illogical the crimcode is. But the admin fucked up big time and now the others are covering for him. It's the same old story. This crop of admins would never have agreed that one of theirs was in the wrong, they band together against the players because they operate from an 'us vs. them' principle.

What bothers me almost as much as that is the godawful emoting by that admin, it's like watching a newbie roleplay. If storytellers can't portray their animations to a decent standard of quality and eloquence, they are bad at their job. Unlike players, it very much is a storyteller's job to be as descriptive and well-written in their efforts as the best roleplayers are. That might also have helped the players react to the situation instead of the staff member approaching it like a twink PKing somebody. Quite the fucking example to set. This shit is not worthy of a storyteller position:

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier growls loudly as he charges through the frey, moving towards the sleek, black-haired templar!

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier subdues the sleek, black-haired templar.

The pudgy, brown-haired half-giant soldier's A low but audible growl can be heard falling from his mouth as he picks the sleek, black-haired templar up in the air!

Last Edit: Jun 27, 2015 4:30:43 GMT -5 by Deleted

splugh staff puppet account Posts: 21	Don't Play in the Arm of the Dragon. Jun 26, 2015 7:40:21 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by splugh on Jun 26, 2015 7:40:21 GMT -5 To add, 'frey' is spelled 'fray.'