my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341 
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Post by my2sids on Jun 25, 2015 20:47:38 GMT -5
I think the real problem is that staff are now so counter-culture from the days of yore, when favoritism existed. They have gone very far to the right and now completely exist in the realm of "by the letter of the law" rather than "by the spirit of the law". This inherently makes their interactions with players, (and leaders especially) devoid of empathy or staff-player mentoring so desperately needed.
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Post by sirra on Jun 25, 2015 20:52:05 GMT -5
I was thinking the same thing. You said it better than I would've though. Well now we know he's not Nyr. |
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Jun 25, 2015 20:53:22 GMT -5
Regardless, it wasn't Asan's place to insist on a rezz for three people, none of whom were himself. We don't have knowledge of whether or not the players of those three PCs asked for one on their own behalf. For all any of us know, those three players might have not wanted to get a rezz. Maybe one had a special app waiting for his recruit's death and was glad that it happened sooner rather than later. Maybe another just had a baby in real life and knew she wouldn't be able to devote much time to the game anyway, and didn't really care that her PC was now dead. Maybe the third was so confused by the whole scene, that he didn't even consider the possibility of asking for a rezz, and was just relieved that the whole thing was over. We don't know. We know only what Asan is showing us arguing with the staff after the staff made it very clear that they had no intention of changing their decision. He was basically beating his head against a brick wall, and expecting the wall to apologize for being hard. Pro-tip: It ain't gonna happen. Whether or not they wanted a resurrection is somewhat irrelevant, as the staff made it clear that this situation wasn't resurrection-worthy in the first place, despite the deaths being caused by code that forced actions that make zero sense whatsoever in the gameworld. In other words, it was an exceptional circumstance, and the resurrection docs state that exceptional circumstances can call for a resurrection.
From an in-game standpoint, it makes no sense.
From an administrative standpoint, considering how many resurrections staff have given for completely legit deaths, it makes no sense.
While I agree that it wasn't really his place to ask for a resurrection -for- his recruits, how hard staffers were willing to argue in favor of broken code for the hell of it is especially telling.
Also, a brick wall at least wouldn't talk down to you like the peasant it thinks you are.
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Asan
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
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Post by Asan on Jun 25, 2015 20:54:48 GMT -5
Regardless, it wasn't Asan's place to insist on a rezz for three people, none of whom were himself. We don't have knowledge of whether or not the players of those three PCs asked for one on their own behalf. For all any of us know, those three players might have not wanted to get a rezz. Maybe one had a special app waiting for his recruit's death and was glad that it happened sooner rather than later. Maybe another just had a baby in real life and knew she wouldn't be able to devote much time to the game anyway, and didn't really care that her PC was now dead. Maybe the third was so confused by the whole scene, that he didn't even consider the possibility of asking for a rezz, and was just relieved that the whole thing was over. We don't know. We know only what Asan is showing us arguing with the staff after the staff made it very clear that they had no intention of changing their decision. He was basically beating his head against a brick wall, and expecting the wall to apologize for being hard. Pro-tip: It ain't gonna happen. I think you should ask the players who had their characters ended through an abortion of sense in-universe before you start conjecturing like that. Here's something: maybe these players knew that it would be worthless to try and talk any sense into the staff, so they didn't even bother. Since that seems to be the general advice here from staff and you apologists -- "Get over it" is an easy way to marginalize any injustice. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 20:59:31 GMT -5
Except I'm neither staff nor apologist. I just stopped caring what the staff thinks or does, if it doesn't fit what I want to do. I either do it and succeed or do it and fail on my own merit. I've had characters killed in the most ridiculous ways ever, and I've had a character force-stored. I've had all kinds of stupid shit done "behind the scenes" and I just got tired of arguing about it. So I simply stopped. It's easier to enjoy the game when you stop trying to argue with staff about something you know they aren't going to budge on.
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Asan
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
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Post by Asan on Jun 25, 2015 21:10:03 GMT -5
You seem to have also stopped caring about the enjoyment of fellow players in this game. That's the core justification of why I asked for those resurrections: it was objectively a failure of the code to provide a reasonable in-universe response, and I felt that was why the staff needed to pick up the slack. The reason that they didn't pick up the slack, and failed to maintain the game, is why I view them as incompetent and incapable today.
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Post by reasonable on Jun 25, 2015 21:13:32 GMT -5
Regardless, it wasn't Asan's place to insist on a rezz for three people, none of whom were himself. We don't have knowledge of whether or not the players of those three PCs asked for one on their own behalf. For all any of us know, those three players might have not wanted to get a rezz. Maybe one had a special app waiting for his recruit's death and was glad that it happened sooner rather than later. Maybe another just had a baby in real life and knew she wouldn't be able to devote much time to the game anyway, and didn't really care that her PC was now dead. Maybe the third was so confused by the whole scene, that he didn't even consider the possibility of asking for a rezz, and was just relieved that the whole thing was over. We don't know. We know only what Asan is showing us arguing with the staff after the staff made it very clear that they had no intention of changing their decision. He was basically beating his head against a brick wall, and expecting the wall to apologize for being hard. Pro-tip: It ain't gonna happen. I think you should ask the players who had their characters ended through an abortion of sense in-universe before you start conjecturing like that. Here's something: maybe these players knew that it would be worthless to try and talk any sense into the staff, so they didn't even bother. Since that seems to be the general advice here from staff and you apologists -- "Get over it" is an easy way to marginalize any injustice. I think that's a pathetic excuse for not trying to open a polite dialogue with staff and only perpetuates the problem some players have communicating with staff. |
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Post by Procrastination on Jun 25, 2015 21:15:21 GMT -5
The only thing I'll say is this. If you think that PC was a noob, because the player hasn't had a stack of PCs, and has only played for a couple years or whatever, you're being stupid. Dannet as a character was well played. Used to, you had to play the game for ten years before you were worth a damn, barring knowing one of the big names of whoever on the GDB oocly. Because of these boards, and the openness of the way code works here, players are coming into the game more knowledgeable at times than people with twice or three times their time whom don't come here. Two years of reading this board, learning and playing on top of that, he's using the collective knowledge of a much greater time period.
I don't agree with Asan's continued annoyance and unwillingness to let go. I personally thought he should have stopped while he was ahead. I can also however respect someone who saw something that is obviously a fuck up in the way crime code works. Did those players want the resurrection? Maybe, maybe not. We won't know unless they came forward. It doesn't matter to me though.
The heart of what Asan was doing, arguing for the sake of what makes sense on an IC basis, is still right in my mind. It's fairly often that you will get a response in regards to death from situations along the line of 'it doesn't matter what makes sense IC, unless its a bug, no ressurection'.
If a templar's life is in danger, and he has two units guarding him, a rogue soldier arrives and is aggressive and lays hands on the Templar, and unit one attacks the rogue for his actions against the templar, and then all of the people in unit two do so as well, it would never make sense that as soon as the rogue is dead, unit one then butcher unit two for following the same exact orders, in the same exact instance, at the same exact time.
That's the spirit of Asan's argument. If you wanna disagree with that, the only excuse you've got in the first place is that unit one was also treacherous in one way or the next, unit one was being affected as a group by a psionicist or Nilazi commanding them using their mystical shit.
The reality is that unit one was a drone NPC group, and it was a fuck up. I don't think Asan should have pushed it so far as he did. I do however see what it is his complaint was about. It isn't about whose place it was to ask for resurrections. What? Would it change the fact of whether or not this situation is acceptable if we got a log showing little noobie PC soldier C asked for one and failed? No. That doesn't change a thing. The spirit of what he's arguing is principle. And the principle says this situation was a fuck up. And the way it was handled was to tell him to shut up, sit back, and do as he is told when he started pushing back.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 21:19:42 GMT -5
I think that's a pathetic excuse for not trying to open a polite dialogue with staff and only perpetuates the problem some players have communicating with staff. I agree with you. That said, I am confident I'm not the only who has been treated rudely and/or aggressively by various staff members as their first step in an interaction. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has logs and saved emails documenting those actions. Staff members can say "no", or "Stop that" without being insulting. When they instead escalate negatively, its no wonder (to me anyway) why players reply in kind. Yes, some players can be jerks. Many of the rest would prefer a collaborative game rather than a dictatorial one. |
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Jun 25, 2015 21:19:53 GMT -5
I think you should ask the players who had their characters ended through an abortion of sense in-universe before you start conjecturing like that. Here's something: maybe these players knew that it would be worthless to try and talk any sense into the staff, so they didn't even bother. Since that seems to be the general advice here from staff and you apologists -- "Get over it" is an easy way to marginalize any injustice. I think that's a pathetic excuse for not trying to open a polite dialogue with staff and only perpetuates the problem some players have communicating with staff. Is it entirely reasonable to expect politeness after brushing claims off to the side and offering bullshit excuses as to why something that should not have happened did indeed happen, and that it's supposed to be that way?
Honestly.
They know it pushes buttons and pisses people off when they do this.
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Asan
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
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Post by Asan on Jun 25, 2015 21:28:02 GMT -5
I think that's a pathetic excuse for not trying to open a polite dialogue with staff and only perpetuates the problem some players have communicating with staff. I tried to offer a polite dialogue. I was treated as a waste of time, and told to shut up and get over it. You either need to read my complaint.zip, or browse back through the request tool and jog your memory. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 21:33:33 GMT -5
I have never heard of anyone getting a reasonable concession of any kind out of Nyr.
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Post by magickermarco on Jun 25, 2015 21:44:09 GMT -5
Yes I've had something added IG, but I can not say due to it would out me instantly. But around four or five years ago it was added, and still exists to this day. If you were to ask for something similar now, how confident in success would you be? After 3 months of work, several spliced logs of what I was hoping to achieve, I'm fairly confident anyone would be able to get done what I did accomplish. It's nothing huge or even really visible. No one would really even notice it unless you were there. Can it be done, yes, is it worth the RL months to achieve it, no. |
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Post by sirra on Jun 25, 2015 21:54:14 GMT -5
It's still very possible to get things done. It just requires having a decent clan staffer. Someone that's more into facilitating the player's vision, and less obsessed with them facilitating the staffer's vision. It's always been that way. Most past tragedies have come from clan staff rotations when one of the former gets replaced by the latter.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2015 22:06:51 GMT -5
Alright.
First of all. I think it is 'very' much Asan's place to request the rez. In fact, it is the pinnacle of selflesness and desire to play for the benefit of the game, the story, and it's players, instead about 'wynning' Arm. He requested a rez for somebody "else". He risked and eventually earned the 'displeasure' of the staff for somebody else. He didnt throw a hissy fit over dying stupidly. He didnt throw a hissy fit because he didnt get a nice toy, or a statue, or his plot approved. He didnt throw a hissy fit because his clan got wiped out (he re-recruited very quickly). He threw a hissy fit because the way the scene went was ... idiotic, badly ran, rife with malfunctioning code, and ultimately bad storytelling for 3 possibly new players. That resurrection request is different because it was on behalf of someone 'else'.
I read the log. And I gotta agree. Those characters shouldnt be resurrected. But ... what they should've had is a message from staff, explaining what exactly happened, maybe even helping them complete the scene and be done with it. Instead they chose to be an asshole about it aaaaand ... lost a player? Very nice.
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