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Post by reasonable on Jun 25, 2015 16:19:52 GMT -5
I have to say I am amazed at how many people will voluntarily play a permadeath game and then complain when they, or PCs they liked, die. Here's the other side of the story from someone that was in the OP's clan.
Since apparently no one else in this thread is aware and the OP is apparently being intentionally obtuse, I will say this: the situation that the OP is describing in the very beginning is misrepresented. There was political turmoil in Allanak, and any player in Allanak at the time could have figured out there was political turmoil. The HG was ordered by another NPC templar to grab a PC, and the OP in turn ordered the recruits to attack because, as most leaders are, he was too hesitant to go into direct combat himself. And if all the recruits involved hadn't been killed by the unit, they would have been killed by the HG, the templar, or the unit that was on the NPC templar's side. This wasn't staff being unfair: this was staff trying to run a non-lethal scene that got interrupted by the OP's frankly stupid orders. The precise circumstances of which unit killed who don't absolve you or other PCs of potential consequences.
This happened over a month ago, and up until recently the OP has not only been chafed about it and made drama about it on the GDB, but was able to recruit PCs to replace the ones he lost and then some. He is blatantly misrepresenting his situation and has been reveling in dramatic passive-aggression on the GDB since the event, leaving out inconvenient little facts to make himself appear to be the victim as much as possible.
Think for yourselves.
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Post by sirra on Jun 25, 2015 16:25:52 GMT -5
His main fault was not having enough meta knowledge to know that the crime code would fuck over the recruits. And apparently, the recruits didn't either.
Staff should also have known better before putting everyone in that position. You're staff. You're supposed to anticipate things like that. It's perfectly logical that PC Militia might choose to defend their PC Templar from a NPC templar. The only reason for them not to, would be the OOC knowledge of crime code slaughtering them.
These players were playing without that OOC knowledge. They made a realistic IC decision, and got punished for it.
Has the Sergeant's player in question handled it in a surefire way to alienate staff? Sure. That's a common problem when one side has all the arbitrary power and the other side feels helpless.
But a healthy game will generally give the benefit of the doubt and support to those who follow their IC heart. Doing otherwise only encourages people to ravenously seek out OOC information, knowing that they'll be fucked (and staff won't care) otherwise.
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Post by reasonable on Jun 25, 2015 16:30:42 GMT -5
The decision was completely IC, yes. But it was also ICly stupid. OOC knowledge doesn't factor into this: the IC knowledge that there is a civil war between Allanak's army divisions and all sides have multitudes of NPCs on their side should have dissuaded the OP from making the order. Resurrecting the recruits would have been a message to the OP that making IC mistakes doesn't have consequences.
I absolutely feel bad for the recruits. They were put in an undesirable situation. But that wasn't staff's doing, it was the OP's. The recruits were ordered to die by a superior PC and had no choice but to accept.
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Post by jcarter on Jun 25, 2015 16:32:37 GMT -5
I have to say I am amazed at how many people will voluntarily play a permadeath game and then complain when they, or PCs they liked, die. Here's the other side of the story from someone that was in the OP's clan. Since apparently no one else in this thread is aware and the OP is apparently being intentionally obtuse, I will say this: the situation that the OP is describing in the very beginning is misrepresented. There was political turmoil in Allanak, and any player in Allanak at the time could have figured out there was political turmoil. The HG was ordered by another NPC templar to grab a PC, and the OP in turn ordered the recruits to attack because, as most leaders are, he was too hesitant to go into direct combat himself. And if all the recruits involved hadn't been killed by the unit, they would have been killed by the HG, the templar, or the unit that was on the NPC templar's side. This wasn't staff being unfair: this was staff trying to run a non-lethal scene that got interrupted by the OP's frankly stupid orders. The precise circumstances of which unit killed who don't absolve you or other PCs of potential consequences. This happened over a month ago, and up until recently the OP has not only been chafed about it and made drama about it on the GDB, but was able to recruit PCs to replace the ones he lost and then some. He is blatantly misrepresenting his situation and has been reveling in dramatic passive-aggression on the GDB since the event, leaving out inconvenient little facts to make himself appear to be the victim as much as possible. Think for yourselves. What part of soldiers under the command of a Templar defending that Templar against internal turmoil from a peer do you find surprising or unrealistic |
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Asan
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
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Post by Asan on Jun 25, 2015 16:40:01 GMT -5
I have to say I am amazed at how many people will voluntarily play a permadeath game and then complain when they, or PCs they liked, die. Here's the other side of the story from someone that was in the OP's clan. Since apparently no one else in this thread is aware and the OP is apparently being intentionally obtuse, I will say this: the situation that the OP is describing in the very beginning is misrepresented. There was political turmoil in Allanak, and any player in Allanak at the time could have figured out there was political turmoil. The HG was ordered by another NPC templar to grab a PC, and the OP in turn ordered the recruits to attack because, as most leaders are, he was too hesitant to go into direct combat himself. And if all the recruits involved hadn't been killed by the unit, they would have been killed by the HG, the templar, or the unit that was on the NPC templar's side. This wasn't staff being unfair: this was staff trying to run a non-lethal scene that got interrupted by the OP's frankly stupid orders. The precise circumstances of which unit killed who don't absolve you or other PCs of potential consequences. This happened over a month ago, and up until recently the OP has not only been chafed about it and made drama about it on the GDB, but was able to recruit PCs to replace the ones he lost and then some. He is blatantly misrepresenting his situation and has been reveling in dramatic passive-aggression on the GDB since the event, leaving out inconvenient little facts to make himself appear to be the victim as much as possible. Think for yourselves. You are a liar, and you have no understanding of the situation. In fact, you've got me confused for someone else entirely. This is the text log of the event.
You're here to discredit me, so let the readers decide for themselves. Never did I give the order to attack -- that was the Templar's command. If you've got facts about the situation that are actually true, and not fabrications and false suppositions, let me hear them and I will address them. |
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Post by sirra on Jun 25, 2015 16:41:43 GMT -5
The decision was completely IC, yes. But it was also ICly stupid. OOC knowledge doesn't factor into this: the IC knowledge that there is a civil war between Allanak's army divisions and all sides have multitudes of NPCs on their side should have dissuaded the OP from making the order. Resurrecting the recruits would have been a message to the OP that making IC mistakes doesn't have consequences. I absolutely feel bad for the recruits. They were put in an undesirable situation. But that wasn't staff's doing, it was the OP's. The recruits were ordered to die by a superior PC and had no choice but to accept. I think you're severely reaching here. It is perfectly IC, especially if you ICly think a unit of soldiers is backing you up, to prevent another soldier from jogging over and molesting your templar. The ONLY reason to not defend the PC templar, and to hold back, would be either the OOC knowledge of the crime code fucking you, or the IC reason of being a coward. I would also have tried to defend my PC templar from an NPC one in that situation, if I had thought it would play out logically, and I didn't have the OOC knowledge I do of the slipshod way both crime code and staff sometimes operate. |
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Post by amateureschatologist on Jun 25, 2015 16:44:38 GMT -5
In the interest of being at least a little bit even-handed (as much as I can be as a cynical bastard), I think reasonable's point was that the recruits in this scenario would have very likely died. That they died to an NPC member of their own unit as a result of the crimcode is stupid and shouldn't happen, but in this particular scenario, they still would've probably been killed by the NPC half-giant or NPC templar on the other side of the conflict. If the crimcode wasn't a blind idiot, we'd still have three dead recruits, just perhaps in a situation that would look more ICly stupid than OOCly stupid.
Edit: Of course, I started typing this before OP posted that log and I haven't read the log yet, so I could be entirely wrong.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
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Post by Jeshin on Jun 25, 2015 16:49:10 GMT -5
1. Let us suppose I am going to die from a bomb implanted in my head. I do not know this. Jcarter does. Jcarter shoots me in the head. Who killed me? Answer would be Jcarter. The potential of a future outcome that was different doesn't change the reality of what happened.
2. The replacement of recruits (even if you got more than you lost) has 0 impact on the complaint that crimcode led to their deaths in an unrealistic manner. That would be like saying, hey Jeshin your kid died because the doctor forgot to do something but it's okay you have 3 kids now. That's great I have 3 kids to replace my 1 dead kid. I still have 1 dead kid.
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Post by gloryhound on Jun 25, 2015 16:52:44 GMT -5
Can anyone here report an example where they sent a request to the staff to do something or make something (other than a master craft) and it was successful?
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Jun 25, 2015 16:55:38 GMT -5
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Post by gloryhound on Jun 25, 2015 16:57:27 GMT -5
Which is about the same as a char app. I mean building in game, support for a plot (other than animating NPCs to interfere), etc. |
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Jun 25, 2015 17:00:33 GMT -5
I can't link to the request tool because I'd have to go fish it out but Wilem my Oashi Aide got support for RPTs and the sale of Oashi booze. I even got to make some decisions related to the Oashi booze shop (not sure if it's in or not). On Elrum Irofel I actually got pretty significant staff support with my original staffers. I sent them kudos here: armageddonmud.boards.net/post/12405/threadTheir support included: NPC Animations, Lore dumps, finding unique items in the Luirs shop which I am convinced they loaded while I was in there, and also supporting Elrum basically hitting up people for money on the circle's behalf which was a fun side gig I used to do pretty regularly. |
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Post by gloryhound on Jun 25, 2015 17:21:28 GMT -5
I have to say I am amazed at how many people will voluntarily play a permadeath game and then complain when they, or PCs they liked, die. Except that's not what he's doing, he's complaining that they died in an unreasonable way due to faulty game mechanics. |
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Post by Amos's Boots on Jun 25, 2015 17:35:09 GMT -5
I have to say I am amazed at how many people will voluntarily play a permadeath game and then complain when they, or PCs they liked, die. Here's the other side of the story from someone that was in the OP's clan. Since apparently no one else in this thread is aware and the OP is apparently being intentionally obtuse, I will say this: the situation that the OP is describing in the very beginning is misrepresented. There was political turmoil in Allanak, and any player in Allanak at the time could have figured out there was political turmoil. The HG was ordered by another NPC templar to grab a PC, and the OP in turn ordered the recruits to attack because, as most leaders are, he was too hesitant to go into direct combat himself. And if all the recruits involved hadn't been killed by the unit, they would have been killed by the HG, the templar, or the unit that was on the NPC templar's side. This wasn't staff being unfair: this was staff trying to run a non-lethal scene that got interrupted by the OP's frankly stupid orders. The precise circumstances of which unit killed who don't absolve you or other PCs of potential consequences. This happened over a month ago, and up until recently the OP has not only been chafed about it and made drama about it on the GDB, but was able to recruit PCs to replace the ones he lost and then some. He is blatantly misrepresenting his situation and has been reveling in dramatic passive-aggression on the GDB since the event, leaving out inconvenient little facts to make himself appear to be the victim as much as possible. Think for yourselves. I feel like I need to chime in here. Yes, there was political turmoil at the time the three recruits died as a result of not knowing how crimcode works. Staff don't really go out of their way to make everyone 100% aware of what they can and cant do and not a lot of people read older threads, so they are simply uninformed. Staff inadvertently were the cause for those three dying due to the clunkiness of the crimcode and they did not accept responsibility as they should have and they did not address the situation as it probably should of been. No, the character Dannet did not order the recruits to attack, the templar being subdued ordered them to. I too was there when it happened. I sense some bitterness about the OP being in a leader position as per your "because, as most leaders are, he was too hesitant to go into direct combat himself" and as such you have some long-brewing hatred looking to be released. Staff/the templar involved in the situation made the mistake of not temporarily adding the recruits to the main AoD clan before things started to kick off - as they have done many times in the past and have done since the incident. Somehow, this one situation slipped through the cracks because staff involved were quite clearly being lazy and weren't correcting their mistakes, because of their generalized ignorance. If this was supposed to be a non-lethal situation, staff made the wrong move by having some random HG NPC subdue a templar which was only recently being attacked - all without a decent emote/echo or two. Very sloppy. 'Reasonable', you're portraying the very same ignorance that staff exhibits on a daily basis. Just stop trying to justify staff's actions. The staff in question are behaving malignantly, and should be treated as such. It's commonly acceptable human behavior to be longingly upset and grudge-holding regarding a situation which did you and others wrong, and to expect some corrections to be made. It's commonly unacceptable human behavior to be repeatedly abusive toward others and to treat them as if they are lessers. There was a big deal about this, with human equality and whatnot. Women's rights. Slavery. A number of Staff on Armageddon MUD didn't seem to get that memo. Neither did you, apparently. |
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aread
staff puppet account
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Post by aread on Jun 25, 2015 17:37:27 GMT -5
I played Crete, the second to previous Sergeant of OP, and let me say that after playing about 7 months, even without riots, assassinations, Black Robes dying, and general fuckery, the amount of people that died to stupid crim-code mistakes is baffling. I've witnessed some long-lived players nearly die to the general archaicism of the bullshit codes, up to and including Clanned soldiers and recruits. The code is bad. And the situation in question is even worse. In most situations where someone dies of crimcode stupidity it can be passed off that they 'should've known better', because it sucks balls when your characters bestie dies from using kick in a brawl but you can't really do anything about it. But in that situation, where three Recruits were killed by their own side in a catastrophe, is utter bull butter.
I've witnessed similar situations of having to clan characters to get them through soldier only areas when they aren't soldiers. If you could justify the Templar's guards killing him in the friendly fire, then go for it, or if you can tell me why the Sergeant didn't die - A clear soldier rather than just a Recruit, then yeah, maybe your case is believable. But the Recruit's deaths at the hands of their own side was stupid, something staff could have avoided or at least rectified, but to maintain their weird fucking domination over the playerbase they chose not to, upsetting pretty much everyone involved BUT THEM.
If you wanna justify their deaths as reasonable, go to head, but there's nothing reasonable about a staff response EVERYONE disagrees with.
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