Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 11:47:23 GMT -5
Oldtwink, on Pearl's assassination (the one in the tavern - it's rumored she was PKed a few times and rezzed before her PC was finally good and gone forever):
She definitely deserved to die, she'd made enough enemies that people tried to kill her multiple times and either failed or were systematically thwarted by IC and OOC influences.
That particular time was blatant code abuse and the code was changed because of it. It had to do with spam-backstab and flee. There was some issue with lack of coded delay, so you could backstab, flee, return, backstab, flee, return, over and over again with no round-time. IIRC, the assassin would never break hide during the entire thing. It wasn't supposed to be that way, but it hadn't been abused blatantly enough for the staff to do anything about it up until that point.
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341
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Post by my2sids on Jun 27, 2015 11:57:31 GMT -5
I believe that whatever face is saved by handing staff discipline privately is more than countered by two factors. One, it is too easy to believe that nothing was done, and that staff exist in an untouchable state despite adversarial or biased behavior. Second, I doubt there is any chance Asan will ever play in one of Cavaticus' clans again, just like I wont play under Rathustra again. I've known at least two people who have left Arm because they dont believe they can get a fair shake from Nyr, and because its impossible to get out of his sphere of control. This is part of what I'd like Arm staff to realize (in a perfect world that doesnt exist). They can use heavy handed methods to win arguments and save face in the moment, but their ensuing reputation damages the populations and interactions in their clans. Not that I'm supporting the view that staff can do no wrong and should never be punished, but ostracizing or making public any sort of punishment staff-side would have some side effects. 1.) No one on staff would ever want to do anything for fear it was "too risky". 2.) Staff who took risks or received complaints would be left to the wolves and consequently: 3.) No one would join staff except for sycophants or boring staff who never did anything. Argue what you will that staff is already filled with sycophants fulfilling X or Y's every nerd fantasy, but... making staff business public in regards to complaints would have more negative effects than positive. Replacing staff isn't easy and creates a lot of rifts in staff-player communication, halts any ongoing plots, and starts players over in their relationship. Those are not good things.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2015 12:01:26 GMT -5
I believe that whatever face is saved by handing staff discipline privately is more than countered by two factors. One, it is too easy to believe that nothing was done, and that staff exist in an untouchable state despite adversarial or biased behavior. Second, I doubt there is any chance Asan will ever play in one of Cavaticus' clans again, just like I wont play under Rathustra again. I've known at least two people who have left Arm because they dont believe they can get a fair shake from Nyr, and because its impossible to get out of his sphere of control. This is part of what I'd like Arm staff to realize (in a perfect world that doesnt exist). They can use heavy handed methods to win arguments and save face in the moment, but their ensuing reputation damages the populations and interactions in their clans. Not that I'm supporting the view that staff can do no wrong and should never be punished, but ostracizing or making public any sort of punishment staff-side would have some side effects. 1.) No one on staff would ever want to do anything for fear it was "too risky". 2.) Staff who took risks or received complaints would be left to the wolves and consequently: 3.) No one would join staff except for sycophants or boring staff who never did anything. Argue what you will that staff is already filled with sycophants fulfilling X or Y's every nerd fantasy, but... making staff business public in regards to complaints would have more negative effects than positive. Replacing staff isn't easy and creates a lot of rifts in staff-player communication, halts any ongoing plots, and starts players over in their relationship. Those are not good things. I disagree. I think that adults can handle constructive criticism, and that open communication is more likely to allow people to learn,improve, and collaborate. One slip, or even a few by a staff member doesnt mean a lynching. It may however mean they need to up their game. In example, if a staff member screws up combat so badly that scenes are being ret-conned, it isnt unreasonable to have them learn a bit more about the combat system before they run another combat scene.
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341
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Post by my2sids on Jun 27, 2015 12:03:46 GMT -5
For some reason I see it turning into a "the customer is always right" situation. I don't like the implications of that.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
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Post by jkarr on Jun 27, 2015 12:08:42 GMT -5
Oldtwink, on Pearl's assassination (the one in the tavern - it's rumored she was PKed a few times and rezzed before her PC was finally good and gone forever): She definitely deserved to die, she'd made enough enemies that people tried to kill her multiple times and either failed or were systematically thwarted by IC and OOC influences. That particular time was blatant code abuse and the code was changed because of it. It had to do with spam-backstab and flee. There was some issue with lack of coded delay, so you could backstab, flee, return, backstab, flee, return, over and over again with no round-time. IIRC, the assassin would never break hide during the entire thing. It wasn't supposed to be that way, but it hadn't been abused blatantly enough for the staff to do anything about it up until that point. because only if their staffpet is the victim will they get off their asses to acknowledge faulty code, briefly expand the definition of 'major bug' to include it, rez the pc, and actually fix the flaw noname aod recruits dont rate for that courtesy
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Post by lulz on Jun 27, 2015 12:31:14 GMT -5
I had a long post prepared but lost it due to a less than stellar connection.
The gist: You were in their good graces Asan and you fucked up. After reading your complaints/demands I don't feel sorry for you in the slightest.
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Asan
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
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Post by Asan on Jun 27, 2015 12:36:48 GMT -5
I don't want to be in the good graces of staffers who don't care that players in their clan got screwed by the code.
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bobo
Clueless newb
Posts: 58
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Post by bobo on Jun 27, 2015 12:54:13 GMT -5
I really can't believe what I'm reading. I was all fired up just reading the OP without context, thinking this would be some kind of great scandal, and I must say, the reality is highly disappointing.
So, first of all, we had a death due to staff error that was promptly and preemptively reversed. Great!
You follow up with a--frankly--slightly paranoid inquiry that is addressed politely and reasonably. Now, I'll grant you that you might not know exactly how staff avatars and animation work. When I staffed, I had an immprompt that was blatantly distinct from my NPC prompt, which cut down on this kind of stuff, but no MUD ever made is immune to user error.
On some level, though, you should realize that if this was some intentional vendetta and not an honest mistake, you wouldn't have been swiftly resurrected with an apology. It was obviously a mistake that was more embarrassing to Euronymos than anything. Sure, as ex-Tuluk admin, he wanted to animate a refugee NPC for some mild hijinx that would not have seriously harmed you in any way. That's one of the things Storytellers do, they animate NPCs and bring some life into the world. Sometimes they make mistakes, because they are human.
Your staff inquiry shows a startling lack of insight into the viewpoint of others. You persist in feeling wronged, even after you are preemptively made whole, and develop a theory to make it personal, informed by GDB speculation (and not by any actual pressure placed on you by staff, as far as you disclose--so you inadvertently validate quashing discussion on the GDB since you have let it inform your imagination to your own detriment), which corresponds in no way to the actual events that transpired. Do you understand how that, by itself, would be tiring to deal with? Yet you are treated with the utmost respect and consideration throughout.
Fast-forward to the event in question. What happened was messy, and maybe you could argue that those recruits should have lived, because the soldiers could have extracted the giant with surgical precision without harming. Or maybe recruits should have let real soldiers do the job, because melee combat in crowded surroundings is how people die, sometimes by accident, and sometimes because maybe just killing everyone swinging blades near that Templar is a perfectly fine way to defend that Templar. They decided to jump into the fray, and that's great, very courageous, and perfectly IC, but it has risks, and those risks played out in a pretty reasonable way.
But let's even grant you that you're right in your read of the situation. Your own correspondence is damning, but not in the way you think it is. You come out of the gate smug and demanding, bolds and italics and underlines smattered about like a high school biology textbook. You hold the previous incident over their head as if that should force them to acquiesce to your desires here. About the most positive thing I can say is that you use the word "request" (in a very insistent manner). Even your pleasantries are some variation on "I hope you are smart enough to agree with me." And here, you have the gall to call this complaint "polite" and say that you only became angry when that didn't work--i.e. you escalated out of all proportion when you didn't get your way--see below. The fact that you point to these documents and encourage people to read them, as if they support your version of events, displays a worrisome lack of self-awareness.
You receive a courteous and diplomatic response, and you fire back harder. Finally you receive one little bit of blunt honesty in that you need to get over it. But you don't. You hit the roof over this small slight. It's clear that if you don't get your way in a dispute, you escalate further and further and further until you've burned all bridges and are posting embarrassing logs on the shadowboard. You get all the way to actually ordering staff to fire other staff. Ordering. Actual imperative sentences. Like you are a military commander in some Jack Ryan movie, or a kidnapper holding some blonde chick for ransom or something. Your demands have become so ridiculous that you force staff to tell you to fuck off. Give me a break. Life just isn't like that. Fair or not, you don't always get your way, and you need better ways of coping with that. Man the fuck up.
It is obvious in this correspondence that there is no end to a discussion with you until you get your way in everything. It exhausts me just reading it and I only slogged through folders 1-3. Of course you "felt the need to retort." It's abundantly obvious that you always do. I am certain that is why staff does not think they can work productively with you.
Understand that players outnumber staff by a great margin, and there are many other players that also have demands, and who have the potential to be just as vociferous about their demands as you are about yours. Often, those demands will conflict with the demands of other players. And everyone thinks theirs are the most important. You need to understand that staff literally cannot spend the time responding endlessly to every player's rambling complaints. There aren't enough hours in the day to give long thoughtful responses to every single one of these screeds, for the simple fact that the players that write this kind of screed inevitably respond to a thoughtful reply with yet another screed, usually longer. There is literally no end to it unless you eventually tell the person who needs to grow up that they need to grow up. In this case, that's you.
I understand that it is great to have players around that are good leaders. I have played a few successful leaders of my own, and I know it's challenging. But there is one thing you need to learn, both for Arm and life: no one is irreplaceable. You being a leader for a while does not put you in a position to treat staff like your errand-boys and monopolize their attention endlessly when you have a gripe. Staff is far from perfect, and there are many ways they could and should stand to improve. But in this case, Asan has no one to blame but himself for his predicament. This is not a damning expose of staff. It's a case of someone who lacks social skills.
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my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341
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Post by my2sids on Jun 27, 2015 13:04:30 GMT -5
Justifying crim code being a reasonable response to anything is pretty farfetched.
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Asan
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
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Post by Asan on Jun 27, 2015 13:14:13 GMT -5
They decided to jump into the fray, and that's great, very courageous, and perfectly IC, but it has risks, and those risks played out in a pretty reasonable way. "Pretty reasonable" shows just how invalid your opinion is.
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Post by sirra on Jun 27, 2015 13:34:40 GMT -5
So here is the question I'd like to pose to everyone: What was the staff goal for this "scene"? What was it they expected players to do that didn't involve defending a PC templar? Both templars were blue robes, so there's no reason to assume the players would believe the NPC had the authority to have their boss subdued. So... what was the plan? Apparently reasonable, who is claiming not to be a staffer, insists this scene should have been non-lethal. Okay. Non-lethal. Hm... then what was supposed to play out? Were the PCs supposed to just stand there? I mean, Allanak was changing, and Nyr always says to be the change, so how did the staff intend for them to act in that scene to be any part of it? Were they only supposed to "ooo" and "ahh" at the staff bad-touching a PC so much higher above their station, so they are reminded that the highbloods are untouchable (ignoring the lowblood HG touchabling their highblood PC boss)? What was their non-lethal plan the PCs fucked up? To be honest, I think the staff expected them to come to their PC templar's aid. I genuinely believe what the PCs did is what the staff wanted them to do. I also believe that the reason they have so much sand up their asses on this one is because Cav's ignornace of the crimcode is what caused this massive clusterfuck and they're too arrogant to admit it. Yeah, Eur rezzed a PC he killed with a typo with the damage command (harm? hurt?), but that's a lot less embarrassing than admitting a cock-up of this order. I suppose there's another possibility if we throw out the presupposition this was meant to be non-lethal. I suppose it's possible they wanted the PCs to die; it wouldn't be the first time. The staff do love killing PCs to involve players emotionally in events they can neither influence nor give two shits about. I just think it's a lot more likely the imms shit the bed on this one and are trying to blame the dog. Anyone got a convincing alternative? I would love to read an explanation for what the staff expected the PCs to do that 1) wasn't what they did and 2) makes sense. Because I have yet to see one word about what the imms intended to happen that the PCs thwarted. Everything else aside, this sums up my main problem with the scene. It's coming from someone that's probably wasted too many hours of his life running scenes or campaigns for other people. What else could the staffer running this have possibly hoped to accomplish that made alienating a good leader and three newbies worth it, if Bitter isn't correct? Everyone exposed to this event has only taken it as more proof to avoid staff RPTs as if they were the plague. How does that benefit the game? (And it's not even fair. A lot of staff RPTs are quite fun, if you're lucky enough to witness them). It doesn't even matter what your stance is on the rezzes or asan's attitude. It was just a poorly conceived and executed situation. I'm not saying the staffer involved should be crucified for it, but the onus of responsibility and the need to apologize was clearly on them. That half-giant soldier should have been rebelled from the AoD before it power-posed subduing and throwing their PC templar around with brutal strength.
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Post by hurrrrrrrrrr on Jun 27, 2015 13:58:09 GMT -5
Looks like a shitty situation that you made a lot, lot worse than it had to be.
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Asan
staff puppet account
Posts: 30
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Post by Asan on Jun 27, 2015 14:05:23 GMT -5
Yeah, you're right. I could have just not cared that three other players had their characters killed by shoddy staff animation, not cared that Nyr didn't deem it worth his time to respond to my questions, and not cared that Cavaticus roud-about blamed it on me.
If I just didn't care, then this wouldn't have been as bad.
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Post by sirra on Jun 27, 2015 14:12:04 GMT -5
Yeah, you're right. I could have just not cared that three other players had their characters killed by shoddy staff animation, not cared that Nyr didn't deem it worth his time to respond to my questions, and not cared that Cavaticus roud-about blamed it on me. If I just didn't care, then this wouldn't have been as bad. That's right. You cared about the other players. You felt responsibility for them. Everyone here, who is worth a damn, and who has ever played a leadership role, remembers the attachment they felt for the first characters they ever recruited and trained up. You went to bat for them. I completely understand it, and I've been there as well. That's why I haven't bothered much to comment on the email exchanges. If the staffer in question had any great empathy, they would have understood where you were coming from, instead of just getting pissy and offended about it and taking it personally. I don't think rezzes should have been forthcoming. It sets too much of a precedent, and I'm anti-rezz in general. And your own rezz, (the lack of which you initially shrugged off) was probably what set up expectations of getting three more rezzes. You didn't realize how rare rezzes should be. But the staffer should have taken responsibility and admitted it was fucked up. They shouldn't have acted arbitrarily like everything went perfect, they were perfect, and the players were morons who got what was coming to them by daring to defend their boss.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,516
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Post by Jeshin on Jun 27, 2015 15:13:58 GMT -5
Here is what matters... 1. Did Asan's dialogue affect the potential outcome of the verdict? Unlikely. Whether he was the nicest nice guy those 3 characters would not have been rezzed. 2. Do staff have to adhere to a higher standard than players? You bet your ass. (We actually have 2 threads discussing the subject on OR with multiple game staff: Hereand Here too) 3. Does the situation where staff obviously made a mistake and rez'd Asan lead into a likely very confusing and frustrating 2nd situation when crimcode clearly and I mean CLEARLY fucks over 3 people not getting a rez? I think so. It's like someone getting arrested by the police and receiving an apology then 3 other people get arrested by the police and go to ass rape prison. They're sitting there going, I don't get it, this is wrong, what is happening! 4. Logical Fallacy Appeal to Moderation. Both parties are often wrong in a complaint. Asan could have definitely composed his dialogue in a more professional manner, but he's a player, that isn't his role. That is the staffs role. Out of the 2 wrong parties here, the staff are more wrong than him and what's more they are the party who is supposedly there to create enjoyment for players.
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