Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,515
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Post by Jeshin on Dec 23, 2014 10:13:58 GMT -5
I can handle it...
Elrum & Izari paid out over 100,000 sid in an 8 month (ooc) period. One was a forced payment by Kadius to avoid having assassins attempting to kill Elrum every other week. Two were bribes to the Faithful Orders of Tuluk to keep Elrum in their good graces so they might be a little less helpful to Kadius when they sent the assassins anyway.
100,000 sid people. Clans do not make that kind of money. Ergo if the Byn are willing to take indie contracts the truth of the matter is indie people can pay a higher rate and pay more frequently than clans can unless a staffer is behind the project and releasing virtual funds. The byn want money they don't care so much about social status, that's kind of their shtick. Nitty gritty mercs who will do anything for money. So you don't have the inherent safeguard of Nobles > Indie.
TLDR - Indies will always be the wealthiest players in the game and due to the Byn's setup they always follow the money. The OOC restriction against indie contracts preserves clan importance.
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Post by nyrsucks on Dec 23, 2014 10:33:00 GMT -5
That's because economy = broken.
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Post by sirra on Dec 23, 2014 10:37:30 GMT -5
I can handle it... Elrum & Izari paid out over 100,000 sid in an 8 month (ooc) period. One was a forced payment by Kadius to avoid having assassins attempting to kill Elrum every other week. Two were bribes to the Faithful Orders of Tuluk to keep Elrum in their good graces so they might be a little less helpful to Kadius when they sent the assassins anyway. 100,000 sid people. Clans do not make that kind of money. Ergo if the Byn are willing to take indie contracts the truth of the matter is indie people can pay a higher rate and pay more frequently than clans can unless a staffer is behind the project and releasing virtual funds. The byn want money they don't care so much about social status, that's kind of their shtick. Nitty gritty mercs who will do anything for money. So you don't have the inherent safeguard of Nobles > Indie. TLDR - Indies will always be the wealthiest players in the game and due to the Byn's setup they always follow the money. The OOC restriction against indie contracts preserves clan importance. This is absolutely correct, and might I just point out, this ties in exactly with what steinal was saying about the game lacking mechanics (or management/leadership) to give clans a fundamental reason for existence. So Borsail and Winrothol or Kadius or whatever, don't need the Byn for anything. But some indies do. This inevitably leads into a situation where completely ridiculous OOC restrictions are necessary to maintain 'balance'. In this case, simply disallowing the Byn from taking indie contracts. The only reason there aren't more Elrums around and other super-rich indies, is because most everyone gets shoehorned, pushed or coerced into a clan - and if they insist on going it alone, they'll not only get marginalized (the forum word of the day), or fucked over in some regard. The only reason Expansion 2.0 stayed with Salarr was because no matter how many sids we had (and we could drum up 25k sids in a week without deliberate effort...we had basically unlimited funds), we'd never get so much as a wheelbarrow while independent, while at least as Salarr, we had an argosy. That's because economy = broken. And yet...if we opened a thread on how to fix Armageddon's economy, we'd probably not only have a solution in a couple days, but there's people on this board who would even know how to code and implement it. Armageddon's staff hasn't done jack shit in over ten years to address anything. I must say, this new age of indie games, with crowd funding and crowd sourcing, where people with passion for their projects accomplish so much with so little, really shows just how much of an incompetent, social circle-jerk club Arm's staff is, with it existing for almost the sole purpose of giving them a little ant farm. The Forest was made by 4 dudes. And Armageddon is just a mud! ANYONE can write descriptions of rooms and such. And yet, the game world hasn't been meaningfully expanded in 15 years.
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,515
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Post by Jeshin on Dec 23, 2014 10:49:09 GMT -5
The ARM economy doesn't need to be fixed, per se, because it's not an issue if the clans had massive credit with the blessing by the staff. It's only broken when the clans (most powerful whatever in the known) are weaker than indies because of restrictions on the clans that don't exist for indies. The issue arises when gameplay advantages and RP disadvantages do not align properly, just like being a dick to a magicker is RP advantageous (kind of) but gameplay retarded to do.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 11:01:36 GMT -5
Escorts are allowed, by indie contracts we're talking indie merchant Amos wants supplies and knows hiring the byn to striphunt and stripforage the north is more cost efficient and time efficient than mudsexing the best ranger to do it. Indie Merchant Amos hires the byn to fill a 50 pelt order Byn Sargeant goes no dice, we don't take "large" contracts from non-house people ^ This was my understanding of the situation as of 2 years ago. When GreasyGemo was playing a year ago though it seemed like they would do escorts and sneak in mini hunting excursions but you couldn't get them to do larger scale or weekly work as an indie. Okay, I see what you're saying now. *scratches his head* I don't see the big deal in the Byn taking on some jobs like that. Can someone play "devil's advocate" for the staff here? firekank - why can't Bynners take on these kinds of contracts? I have two other reasons, although I dont agree with them myself. I've had two sergeants and at least four troopers in the Byn. Every single time, the Byn membership whined about hunting monsters if it didnt provide a ready stream of skillups, and threatened to rebel if they had to use the forage command. Like it or not, for some players the perceived point of the Byn is adventure, as opposed to work. By extension, if you have a 20+ person Byn being hired by a house, theoretically you should have enough players involved to start to justify storyteller attention. It doesn't actually work that way, but a bunch players hope it will. Secondly, I suspect that part of the imm plan for the Byn is implicitly to provide a stream of skilled characters that players have an attachment in, to the various Houses. They clearly dont care about one more indep succeeding, or or a bunch of money being made. A 15-25 player Byn can be an expendable tool for every sponsored role in the game, and turnover in that group then directly supports the sponsored roles further.
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Post by nyrsucks on Dec 23, 2014 11:09:13 GMT -5
For the GMH’s anyway:
Have the the PC portion of the clan tied to the coded store. The store(s) doesn’t have unlimited anything any more. Everything in a clan should be craftable. Allow the store to continue to do the sell to a virtual customer thing as well. The store(s) only has what the PC portion of the clan puts in it. The price it will pay for outside crafted goods also will go much lower. ake Kurac have to get spice from their spice buyer too. If no one is in Red Storm then they will have to go hire grebbers.
The sales, real and virtual, from the store go to the PC clan’s budget. The House takes its cut. Every time you use the cook for free food or the water tun is refilled, it withdraws from the budget. The PC’s pay also comes out of the budget. The extra is at the discretion of the leader(s). He is corrupt and gives no bonuses? Then his people will leave.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 11:20:25 GMT -5
Really cool idea.
I am totally, completely naive when it comes to coding, so I wonder what it would take to code something like that.
Moreover, if Nessalin or other coders just feel like they're being signed up for work, how much would it be to HIRE a coder to come in and do stuff for Arm, like this for example?
I guess it would be shitty if a bunch of money was paid and it turned out terribly...
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Post by nyrsucks on Dec 23, 2014 11:25:54 GMT -5
If motivated it, I estimate a few weeks.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 11:27:29 GMT -5
So I mean, coders probably aren't cheap.
So if you were actually HIRING someone, it would be like a tens of thousands of dollars operation?
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Post by sirra on Dec 23, 2014 11:27:30 GMT -5
For the GMH’s anyway: Have the the PC portion of the clan tied to the coded store. The store(s) doesn’t have unlimited anything any more. Everything in a clan should be craftable. Allow the store to continue to do the sell to a virtual customer thing as well. The store(s) only has what the PC portion of the clan puts in it. The price it will pay for outside crafted goods also will go much lower. ake Kurac have to get spice from their spice buyer too. If no one is in Red Storm then they will have to go hire grebbers. The sales, real and virtual, from the store go to the PC clan’s budget. The House takes its cut. Every time you use the cook for free food or the water tun is refilled, it withdraws from the budget. The PC’s pay also comes out of the budget. The extra is at the discretion of the leader(s). He is corrupt and gives no bonuses? Then his people will leave. Yes. I've always thought that the biggest mistake the GMH staff did was never giving us quotas of materials we had to bring in. Fast fact: In Salarr, I KNEW we could get anything that we requested to be loaded into the game. When Olgaris took over, that list simply became shorter and more retarded, but we could still ask for anything on that list, and it'd be loaded into the warehouse...albeit, it might take a RL month. But we didn't really have to DO anything special to ensure it. As Nadhir, I kept this knowledge from the players (although, obviously, the merchants and vets knew OOCly, but played along) and gave people missions to go forage up the materials necessary. What was I going to do with the tembo hides and other miscellaneous shit brought back? Not much. Sometimes I secretly junked it and pretended an imm took it. Because let's face it, the fiction of staff awareness is often needed to keep some people interested. But it kept people coming back for more. And it was fun, despite the benevolent neglect. Salarr got so huge, that we were forbidden from recruiting anyone else. They tried to break us up and send some people south, but they came back north. I've bitched about the whole Miloka/NPC guard killing debacle ad nauseum, but that didn't even make its way meaningfully onto my account notes. Its main effect was just Nyr/Adhira bitching at me. And they really went off on me in private, but the account note itself was inconsequentially mild (so and so killed NPCs without alerting staff. I'd be more ashamed if I DIDN'T have that account note after playing ten years). No, the most vituperative account note, was one by Olgaris saying I should never be in charge of another clan, because I was a horrible prick and a bad person. Not because of anything I said to him OOCly, but because Nadhir ICly laughed off the kuraci camo ban. I told Olgaris in an email Nadhir would accept any IC chastisement from superiors. And then the issue was dropped. Yes. That made me a horrible clan leader, worthy of getting my Mul Byn sergeant app retroactively denied after already being approved. He didn't even give any context about the incident. I didn't learn why until years later. Fuck Olgaris, all these years later. The motherfucker should've sacked up and approached me with an NPC captain or such. I still would've laughed at him, but he could've handled it ICly. And this is why all account notes should be accessible by the player at any time. Not cleaned up, and carefully edited, because I didn't see Olgaris' comment on me until I accidentally got sent my unedited account notes. (They rejected a special app and forgot to remove Olgaris' cut and paste of my account note).
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 11:29:56 GMT -5
I don't usually play in clans but when I do it's because they have a leader that is engaging and creates unique opportunities in the clan that only a leader can provide. And if I'm lucky, utilizes my character in things that also help myo character archive thier goals.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 11:32:27 GMT -5
For the most part I don't join clans when the leaders are pretentious and condescending, (unless they are fun which is very rare)
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Patuk
Shartist
Posts: 552
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Post by Patuk on Dec 23, 2014 11:32:57 GMT -5
You people make me realise how lucky I was to have Hishn as a staffer back when I still had my (very shortlived) Kadian. None of my item order requests I sent in took over a week, and things were good.
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Post by nyrsucks on Dec 23, 2014 11:33:56 GMT -5
So I mean, coders probably aren't cheap. So if you were actually HIRING someone, it would be like a tens of thousands of dollars operation? I could do it in a month without issue with casual time. Most of the code already exists. It would be a matter of a few scripts to remote deposit and withdraw from the bank account mainly.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2014 11:39:26 GMT -5
Clans are mostly flavor roles without someone (staff) driving them and the game world to make them relevant.
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