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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2015 19:32:07 GMT -5
Here's a good one (the context makes it that much more hilarious). First, Ath is responding to player concerns that players can't do anything by pointing out various ways in which staff can do things (staff plots! the flying spiders! building rooftops!). Second, Ath is comparing the state of things during 2007, when he even admits staff couldn't do anything at all, with the state of things now. Third, the writing. Fourth, everyone has been yelling at staff that, yes, MMH is OKish, but it honestly isn't all that - we'd like to change the world outside of Allanak too. It's just... ugh. The difference between how staff view the game and players is amazing. They should force them to play for a year. gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg907752.html#new |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 6:17:19 GMT -5
They keep talking about trivial little things as if they're significant. Adding rooftops? There's been what, twenty or thirty rooftop rooms added to Allanak over the course of two years. That should be an afternoon's work for one builder. It's all just one uniform theme, all the room descs are re-wordings of eachother. This is a rooftop, the tiles are cracked, Tek's tower rises in the distance, commoners mill around below you.
What Armageddon's staff does is a pittance. Considering the size of their staff roster, they put in so little work that it's a joke. MUDs with two or three staff members accomplish twice as much in half the time. Arm's staff acts like writing a handful of room descriptions is some lengthy, elaborate project. They expect frenzied praise for tiny token efforts. Most of what they do pertains to lessening their own workload.
They constantly harp on about the immense work they do, but I've never seen a staff crew do so little considering how many they are and how easy it is to work on a game as established and well-defined as Armageddon. They don't have to get used to new code systems, they don't have to invent new aesthetic styles for their writing, and there's less content in the game now than there has been in probably fifteen years after they removed half of the fucking game world, clans and character archetypes.
It's like they've been carrying out this long-term program to condition the playerbase into accepting far less than they should so that they can get away with doing as little work as possible, and then they have the fucking cheek to praise themselves for "working so freaking hard." Get outta here.
Of all the RPIs I've ever played - and that's most of them - Armageddon is by far the one where you have the least ability to make a mark on the game world. The game world is entirely static, you can't do anything whatsoever to change it by yourself, and any request for special permission is met with Arm's trademark stifling bureaucracy and naysaying staff approach. They don't trust players in the slightest, they actively don't want you to be able to make your mark, and yet they constantly insist that it's their job to facilitiate it because that makes them sound good. It's sickening.
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Oct 14, 2015 8:45:37 GMT -5
Here's a good one (the context makes it that much more hilarious). First, Ath is responding to player concerns that players can't do anything by pointing out various ways in which staff can do things (staff plots! the flying spiders! building rooftops!). Second, Ath is comparing the state of things during 2007, when he even admits staff couldn't do anything at all, with the state of things now. Third, the writing. Fourth, everyone has been yelling at staff that, yes, MMH is OKish, but it honestly isn't all that - we'd like to change the world outside of Allanak too. It's just... ugh. The difference between how staff view the game and players is amazing. They should force them to play for a year. gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg907752.html#new It's probably just a typo on Ath's part, but it's weird that he/she claims to have joined the staff in 2007 but Ath's staff GDB account is only from late 2009 (November 9, 2009 to be precise). |
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Post by jcarter on Oct 14, 2015 11:44:56 GMT -5
lol was there really flying spiders as a 'scary' part of a plot? jfc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2015 20:57:05 GMT -5
Was Ath high during this, or under some serious sleep debt? His writing and general grammar is usually much better.
I dont have anything constructive to actually comment on his points. He's right and he's wrong. I dont think he should've posted this.
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Post by latrineswimmer on Oct 15, 2015 9:21:42 GMT -5
Yah. It makes no sense in regards to what he is responding to. Ath is usually pretty good and chill but maybe tonight he has been out on the town.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 11:44:39 GMT -5
Nesselin speaks!
For context, Old Kank had noted:
I take it that Old Kank is spot on, and he/she is being gentle and polite.
And Nesselin replies in broken English:
Now, if I can even fucking understand what nesselin is saying through all the snark (and the writing, people, the writing!), it's something like this: blame the players.
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punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
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Post by punished ppurg on Oct 16, 2015 11:54:01 GMT -5
Nessalin has spoken. For him to even pay attention to the GDB (remember: "most" staff members don't even look at it so said Talia) speaks to how even Nessalin has some fleeting murmur in his head that he's screwed up. It's very apt for him to go pick out of this (very good) post the validation he needs -- it's the player's problem.
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Post by pinkerdlu on Oct 16, 2015 13:43:56 GMT -5
Me nessalin. Players bad. Game good.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2015 13:59:29 GMT -5
It's some sort of progress for that stuff to even be discussed and not aggressively censored, but I think it's far too late. The damage done to that community by Nyr and Nessalin is so deep that it's not gonna be solved by some debate. These are problems that started to become serious several years ago, and it has only now got to the point where it can be discussed without one getting savagely punished for bringing it up.
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Post by jcarter on Oct 16, 2015 14:17:40 GMT -5
i think nessalin is trying to say that players now are all focused on the game aspects, code, and discussing the game whereas 20 years ago it was more just focused on roleplaying. which sounds fair to me, i'd agree with that, but i think he's putting in an implicit statement that the playerbase has changed and Arm hasn't. which is a dumb assumption to make.
20 years ago, Arm was unpredictable. at least, players thought it was. players played characters focused on the world because who knows what was next -- maybe your animated superiors rewarded you with a promotion for squashing an assassination plot against a noble, who you didn't really care for but wanted to look good. or maybe your noble house would rise in standing if you brought honor to them...or shamed another one into lower status by exposing a noble's love affair with an elf. anything could happen, and it was actually fun to be involved with things like that.
maybe that never really could have happened, maybe it could and then changed, maybe it still could, idk. but the playerbase doesn't believe it anymore and has hit this nihilistic kind of point where it honestly doesnt give a fuck. players have grinded up a warrior/ranger/whatever a million and one times and don't want to draw out that unfun and uneventful progress more than they need to. they've played the clanned game and seen how boring it can be if there's not good imms and leaders, so they avoid the more restrictive ones. RP consequences for things are pretty much non-existent so there's no point in causing problems with elves or 'Rinthis, which kills caste-based conflict. and so on and so forth.
so yeah players have changed, but it's a result of understanding Arm and what can/can't happen and maximizing what they enjoy about it. if nessalin doesnt like that attitude he should try reinforcing standards and RP in the game instead of going "gamers nowadahs, feh!".
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Post by jcarter on Oct 16, 2015 14:53:21 GMT -5
also I read that everything is terrible that was now isnt blah blah thread because i dont want to do work on a friday afternoon. it started off talking about what people liked and wanted, veteran players, etc... then nosedived into "HOW CAN WE GET NEW PLAYERS WITH NO EXPERIENCE TO PLAY OUR GAME"
also, the quote from nessalin missed the most condescending part where he filled in a quote from old kank with lorem ipsum text:
also wtf:
literacy code, having been in game for 20 years, is still one of the main causes of crashes. you would have thought that one of the zookeepers could wrangle nessalin into taking care of that at some point but nope.
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Post by glacierflux on Oct 16, 2015 15:53:59 GMT -5
Are the staff all drunk? Ath is making as much sense as an out of order gumball machine. This writing-based game is being run by people who cannot construct a comprehensible sentence in English.
Is this person speaking English as a second language? I am will got be you I don't cry?
At least this nauta person is trying something bold. we'll see how that plays out cotton. I predict staff ignores this post, moderates it, or addresses it by talking around the issue and failing to actually do jack fuck. nauta's pretty new, but I'm sure her open communication style and enthusiasm have already been rewarded by earning some haters on staff. pasting in case it vanishes.
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Post by RogueRougeRanger on Oct 16, 2015 15:57:35 GMT -5
i think nessalin is trying to say that players now are all focused on the game aspects, code, and discussing the game whereas 20 years ago it was more just focused on roleplaying. which sounds fair to me, i'd agree with that, but i think he's putting in an implicit statement that the playerbase has changed and Arm hasn't. which is a dumb assumption to make. 20 years ago, Arm was unpredictable. at least, players thought it was. players played characters focused on the world because who knows what was next -- maybe your animated superiors rewarded you with a promotion for squashing an assassination plot against a noble, who you didn't really care for but wanted to look good. or maybe your noble house would rise in standing if you brought honor to them...or shamed another one into lower status by exposing a noble's love affair with an elf. anything could happen, and it was actually fun to be involved with things like that. maybe that never really could have happened, maybe it could and then changed, maybe it still could, idk. but the playerbase doesn't believe it anymore and has hit this nihilistic kind of point where it honestly doesnt give a fuck. players have grinded up a warrior/ranger/whatever a million and one times and don't want to draw out that unfun and uneventful progress more than they need to. they've played the clanned game and seen how boring it can be if there's not good imms and leaders, so they avoid the more restrictive ones. RP consequences for things are pretty much non-existent so there's no point in causing problems with elves or 'Rinthis, which kills caste-based conflict. and so on and so forth. so yeah players have changed, but it's a result of understanding Arm and what can/can't happen and maximizing what they enjoy about it. if nessalin doesnt like that attitude he should try reinforcing standards and RP in the game instead of going "gamers nowadahs, feh!". Jcarter, this post of yours is extremely insightful. As I've said before: Arm used to truly feel unlimited, like a real sandbox and it was focused on the RP over all else (within the shared reality of Zalanthas). I haven't read a good description of how that change came about until I saw your post: The playerbase just doesn't believe in Armageddon anymore. Arm is now just another game with arbitrary rules and limitations, except it's text based. That's the crux of it. Everybody knows all the many, many limitations. Often from bitter experience, but also from the many Staff Announcements: no slaves, no Outriders, no Red Scorpions, no Crimson Wyverns, no Falcons, no Qynars, no Governors, no Tuluk, no sorcs, the lowering Glass Ceiling, etc. The strings are showing! The game is no longer immersive, it has just as many limitations as a graphical MMO but without the graphics or the bajillion players of WoW. Arm's players have responded, leaders keep their head down because what's the point, and vets like Old Kank are bored to distraction. Armageddon could be a bastion of immersive and collaborative storytelling, that only a text based MUD could provide. That's what it used to feel like. It used to feel like a wonderful bastion of analog possibilities in the digital world of preprogrammed digital limitations. But now it's just a text based world of limitations. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2015 1:15:21 GMT -5
I've been describing Armageddon as something akin to a text-based WoW RP server: you can find some people who are good at emoting, who can stay IC and present something resembling a believable character, but you can't do anything significant other than what's within the premises of the RPG, i.e. level up, get the best equipment, and kill the biggest mobs or engage in PvP for the sake of OOC competition. And because that's really all there is to do, a lot of the players don't focus much on the roleplay but merely make the minimum expected effort required to not stand out negatively.
After a long enough time of this, it gets to the point where "tryhard" RP is almost ridiculed, which is something you can even see on Armageddon where they've developed a culture of barely emoting, barely expressing their roleplay, and deriding long emotes and verbosity as some kind of flowery, masturbatory showboating that isn't appreciated. Too few players on Armageddon make any real effort to make their roleplay appealing and immersive to the other participants. They've got this bizarre "emoting does not equal roleplay" mantra and have convinced themselves that your intentions are all that matter.
The result is that Armageddon's roleplaying environment has devolved to the point where even storytellers are so awful at portraying their roleplay that you get shit like that scene where the half-giant soldier was subduing a templar and emoting like someone who had just discovered RPIs. It's like Arm has come to be a game where the ideal is to be the strong, silent type who makes the right choice but keeps it all inside and doesn't reveal anything to anybody.
It's no fucking wonder players aren't immersed. If they want people to stop watching Netflix while playing, maybe they should try to actually encourage people to roleplay well instead of fostering the notion that emoting and characterization doesn't count as roleplay. I mean, this isn't something that has been a real concern in other games of the genre. It's fairly specific to Armageddon, and it's easy to identify the reason.
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