delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,656
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Post by delerak on Jul 10, 2014 3:54:27 GMT -5
Been thinking about this for a while. Been approached by a few about it and while I have almost no interest in even attempting to administer/code/build on another mud ever again I still think about the potential that darksun mud had. So I'm making this thread only as an indication that I would fully fund the servers and any other costs in involved but I want to see how many people are interested. I'm posting this here because I would want RPI players involved in this as it would have to be an RPI and everyone here knows enough about the campaign. Nothing would satisfy me more than to have old disgruntled Arm players building cities/items/npcs on a new darksun.
A few questions I haven't been able to answer in my daily pondering.
Where to start in the timeline for Athas? This is important as it completely dictates what is going on currently.
What codebase to use? I'm not opposed to building one and funding it either.
Staff hierarchy? Anyone who knows me knows I'm a big fan of an open working environment (that being players/staff working together) and very little chain of command. While I accept there needing to be one I want it to be as simple as possible and as giving as possible in regards to the dungeon masters freedom to run things with players.
Mechanics. I talked for hours with Lazloth who helped me code the old version of the mud. We had a lot of ideas for combat/magic/psionics that never really got off the ground but we started coding it. Mechanics are important to the survival of any game.
Some would say it's easier to just download code load it up in a shell and get people logging in but I've learned that I'd rather gauge my options first and have an actual business plan for this before I go forward. Maybe I'm taking it too seriously but I don't want to see it fail again. Arguably I could have kept it going but my job took up too much time and deploying for months at a time wasn't viable to administer my cell phone bill much less a game.
I'll leave it at that for tonight. Discuss, flame me, laugh at me. I don't care I just wanted to see what kind of response these forums had to the idea.
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Post by nyrsucks on Jul 10, 2014 20:37:11 GMT -5
I'd like it to be like a thousand years in the future so you can alter things. It could even be on the other side of the world in the same setting without having to code in all the cities and stuff in the original dark sun.
Have every action emotable.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jul 11, 2014 15:20:18 GMT -5
I've been putting a lot of thought into creating a MUD myself. i recently chose to scrap the idea because if it is successful it is a huge social committment. And as an introvert that kind of thing is repulsive. Plus the way you behave as the head of a thing is totally different from the way you conduct yourself as just a staffer or just a player. Im still probably going to code one from scratch. I dont know if that would fit your time table so Im not presently offering to code it. But I did spend quite a lot of time thinking about my MUD and making decisions. if you want a sounding board or some discussion im up for that. One of the things I decided on was that people can't be trusted to know how to behave. people need to have rules. But it's not because theyre stupid or naturally evil or any of that shit. the reason is people aren't magically all on the same page. So I was going to dedicate a public, visible page on the site to specifically lay out: - how staffers conduct themselves in doing their jobs
- how the staff are to handle discussions with other staff
- how the staff are to handle discussions with players
- how the players are to handle discussions with staff
- how players are to handle discussions with other players
- how players should behave in-game
And in order to play or be on staff you'd have to read the rules. and agree to abide them. And the amount of rules decrease as you get further down that list. Because MUDs rot from the head down. These rules would be in place before I allowed anyone to help my with my project. (obviously my suggestion here is you do the same with your project.) Because what seems to happen a lot is you go to make a mud and you get people to help you make it. they're volunteering their time so you see it as being all of your game. Because it is, after all. But if it turns out they suck at handling authority what can you do? Tell this person who helped you get your game off the ground they're fired in the first week? and it's your own fault for assuming you both have the same ideas about what constitutes "proper behavior" and 'abuse" because those terms turn out to be vague as fuck when you switch from discussing authority to adminstering it. You cant rely on just having a good, solid conversation. It may work for the people you start to make the game with. But it won't work in the long run. what about when you need to add someone onto the staff a year later? Or a few months into develpment when life happens to someone? or if you need to take a leave of absense and expect the game to resemble what it was when you left? And how can you expect players to know them? You must put your decisions about staff and player conduct settled down into writing. Strict settled rules paradoxically make people feel freer than arbitration does. History is full of examples of the superiority of rule of law to rule by arbitration. It boils down to this: knowing in advance how everyone is supposed to behave means you can execute any plan within those boundaries. As long as the rules are actually enforced against everyone fairly. what it eliminates is the fear that you will catch you shit from the staff for something that's supposed allowed under the rules. Regardless of which staffer it is who sees you doing it. Or how that staffer may feel about you. Or what they feel about that activity. If youd like to see an example of the arbitration instead of rule of law, Id recommend ArmageddonMUD. Im not even talking about the staff sabotaging assassinations that would upset their storylines or slay an immpet or whatever. At least not this minute. Take a good look at what passes for their public, settled rules. almost exclusively about RP. Exclusively rules on the playerbase. And they are spread out over 3 pages of the website (if you include karma). even if you as a new player stumble onto the page about karma it's almost devoid of discussing OOC behavior. For example where is the rule about discussing IC-sensitive information or coordinating ooc with other players? Activities some staffers frown upon regardless of where it happens? it sure as shit isn't on the site. How about the rule about you gettnig banned for what you post on this forum? Or just for posting here at all? Players react poorly to having to interpret/learn the rules by being punished at random for breaking them. It makes players afraid to act or contemptuous of the staff,. But what about the GDB? Let's pretend it makes sense that someone directed to Arms site would think to look up rules in the forum submenu on the community menu. lets talk about the GDB. pretend youre new. say you go on the gdb. Where would you guess you'll find rules? New Player forum doesnt have em. I mean that sounds like a pretty obvious first forum a new player would look at. How about General Discussion? Nope. Lets say youre determined to find out how to conduct yourself the "easy way" though. You do a find in your browser on the forum index page for the word "rules". And it shows up twice in the subforum descriptions. Once in "Ask The Staff" where rules aren't listed, only discussed. And once in "Non-Armageddon Discussion" where you're reminded to read the rules before participating. Eventually you stumble onto the Rules thread in "Staff Announcements" subforum. What does the first post tell you? Basic forum rules, plus a ban on criticism against the staff. Most of the rules don't list punishments for breaking them. Some of the rules don't even explain how/when they will be applied. And none of the punishments list their duration or how to appeal. now skip down a couple posts. Duration was eventually added the same day Adhira bumped the post just over 3 years later. Appeals are implied to be against the rules. So what doesn't the whole rules thread tell you? That what you post may result in karma being docked. or other vaguly termed "IC consequences" per Nyr. How about rules about how the staff are supposed to behave? It tells you how to report staff misbehavior. why doesnt it say what is considered misbehavior? Or what possible consequences to the staffer should be expected if they are guilty of it?
I think I've ranted long enough. Im just saying all this, del, in the hopes you see the importance of laying down rules before taking on hires or players.
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Post by BitterFlashback on Jul 12, 2014 0:17:43 GMT -5
Shit. In all that ranting I forgot to mention the rules page would also list the punishments for breaking each rule, the durations of the punishments, and the appeal process.
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Post by nobodyatall on Jul 14, 2014 21:09:05 GMT -5
A solid rule base and staff that kept to them would immediately put this mud leagues above Armageddon, even if it was using the stolen codebase from like 2009 that someone once had.
Your post about the rules highlights one of the main issues with Armageddon as a whole. Staff view themselves as above the playerbase, and that is not the way to run a game. Staff should be there to, as discussed in the SoI thread, help grow the story. Being a staffer is as much an experience in roleplaying as being a noble or clan leader is. You have to remain consistent, you have to maintain fairness, even when you lose or your plans go off the rails, and you have to absolutely understand that the value of your time is NOT greater than the value of a player's time. The main thing that made me just stop playing Arm altogether was the attitude of staff, and I know there are people that feel the same way.
Sometimes with staff, where the OOC rules are concerned, its like playing cops and robbers with a five year old. He'll never get shot, but you'll get shot immediately every time. The current crop of staff are obsessed with winning (with a few notable exceptions, Rathustra gets talked up a lot here, for example) over creating a gameworld that's fun.
There should certainly be OOC/paperwork tasks that are done by staff, but they should be the type of people who have fun animating a random beggar on the street, or helping a new player figure out where the water seller is, or just getting owned by Lord Badass Tor for grabbing his cloak with their muddy hands, merely to add flavor to the world.
A really good system, IMO, would give staffers a 'role' to play. A couple people would play wildlife and tribals, and do things to entertain rangers and other outdoor types. Another person or two would spice up the cities. I'm not saying they should animate Red Robes and Mekillots (or their equivalent) every hour, but rather the little stuff as well as the medium stuff and the big stuff. It'd let the world develop a personality that reflects the staffers, and it would also turn the game from pleading for weeks for an animation that ends up with a five minute meeting with an NPC who has been around as a decrepit old man for 100 IG years because the staff can't be bothered to update their files into a living breathing world.
There should also be some staff, who like this sort of thing, that just keep track of all the paperwork, and maybe update/edit a shared document of what various high-importance characters are up to so that there's an easy centralized place to look at it all.
edit: Think of it like a tabletop GM. Nobody wants to play for the asshole who railroads you into their plots 24/7. People really like the guy who is capable of interacting with the players' choices and decisions and rolling with the punches just to see where things go.
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Post by diamondsedge on Jul 15, 2014 15:50:33 GMT -5
Some of the most memorable tabletop gaming sessions I've ever been involved with had nothing to do with the actual plot the GM had planned for us. For example, at a faire one time, we round a tent to see what a commotion was about only to notice our Halfling rogue is doing a circus balancing act on a full pony keg (he was stealing it of course) as it rolled down the hill. The GM asks us if we are going to help or turn him in. We wound up joining the chase, turning over stuff to hinder those behind us all the while yelling Get him! At the bottom of the hill our 18 something strength fighter grabbed the keg and off we went. We had a good team building exercise right there that delayed the main story a night but gave all the players a warm and fuzzy.
Sometimes its best to let that disruptive player have their moment to give them a sense of accomplishment and get that energy spent. If all goes well it builds team spirit, at worst it gets everybody killed.
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Post by Prime Minister Sinister on Jul 15, 2014 16:35:20 GMT -5
Word.
Any staff member that will have a hand in any plot-building whatsoever should have to be a proven and skilled improviser.
If you're starting a storyline with other players, and you already know how it's going to turn out, you're doing it terribly, terribly wrong.
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Post by lyse on Jul 15, 2014 20:00:07 GMT -5
Some of the most memorable tabletop gaming sessions I've ever been involved with had nothing to do with the actual plot the GM had planned for us. For example, at a faire one time, we round a tent to see what a commotion was about only to notice our Halfling rogue is doing a circus balancing act on a full pony keg (he was stealing it of course) as it rolled down the hill. The GM asks us if we are going to help or turn him in. We wound up joining the chase, turning over stuff to hinder those behind us all the while yelling Get him! At the bottom of the hill our 18 something strength fighter grabbed the keg and off we went. We had a good team building exercise right there that delayed the main story a night but gave all the players a warm and fuzzy. Sometimes its best to let that disruptive player have their moment to give them a sense of accomplishment and get that energy spent. If all goes well it builds team spirit, at worst it gets everybody killed. Those were my best and favorite TT experiences. My ideal Mud would be run like that, sure a fuck up could get everybody killed but it could also derail a plot, but something more awesome could come from it. But then again I love improv and unexpected shit sooooo..yeah.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,656
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Post by delerak on Dec 18, 2014 1:00:07 GMT -5
So this just happened. Compiled. Running for shits and giggles.
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Kronibas 2.0
Displaced Tuluki
this account will go inactive once I hit 420 posts
Posts: 389
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Post by Kronibas 2.0 on Dec 18, 2014 1:03:38 GMT -5
Yes, we're making this happen.
already brainstorming staff-run quests
[12:02:58 AM] (Channel) Anon80312: Your party must gather and venture forth, find the Gypsy with Genius Haiku
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
Posts: 1,451
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Post by Jeshin on Dec 18, 2014 1:04:51 GMT -5
Is this that fabled rip of the ARM codebase from like early 2000?
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Kronibas 2.0
Displaced Tuluki
this account will go inactive once I hit 420 posts
Posts: 389
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Post by Kronibas 2.0 on Dec 18, 2014 1:08:22 GMT -5
way better
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nobody
Clueless newb
Posts: 80
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Post by nobody on Dec 18, 2014 1:19:52 GMT -5
Which version is that dude? Is that the one you released on sourceforge.net? I was just looking at paying for a server to get the atonement engine up and running on it... was it difficult to setup? I've tried to get it setup before but the coder couldn't do it.
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delerak
GDB Superstar
PK'ed by jcarter
"When you want to fool the world, tell the truth." - Otto Von Bismarck
Posts: 1,656
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Post by delerak on Dec 18, 2014 1:39:17 GMT -5
Not difficult, ton of memory leaks. I'm just appeasing the masses in Shadowspeak at this point. Nothing serious going on here. Move along.
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dcdc
Shartist
Posts: 531
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Post by dcdc on Dec 18, 2014 12:55:21 GMT -5
Well I appreciate you letting us check it out Delerek.
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