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Post by tektolnes on Mar 25, 2014 12:58:41 GMT -5
This is a cross-over from a question posted by yaznokumf in a thread here about Shields, vs Two-handed, vs Dual Wield. I made it its own thread because I feel like that one operates best in the confines of mundanes, and I feel like there are a lot of tangential issues to fighting as a mage vs fighting as a mundane... So, here's the original question: What is the best fighting style to play as a mage? I assume shield for a Krathi, or elkrosian so they have the defense while they blast with their spells. How about for a vivaduan or Rukian whose magick is more defensive? And a good initial response: For a mage, the question really is what kind of weaponry do you have access to. If you're employing mundane weapons, you cannot cast spells with it wielded. Which "still" makes sense for rukkians and krathi, with their ways of getting their strength/endurance to AI and high defensive spells. So having something huge and crazy two-handed heavy item preferably is a good idea for them. They'll be able to kill shit without casting any spell if they're prepared enough and do that pretty early on. Without an overly long training. Other mages, it might be a bad idea to employ mundane weapons. In which case, what weapons do you have access to? If Tek is my momma and I've got every magickal weapon to choose from. I would have a viv and whiran shields on standby and a krathi sword. If I'm a mage/slipknife, then fuck yeah I want drovian daggers. Amongst non permanent magickal weapons, my preference goes to drovian sul swords, and viv/whiran shields. The key here is. If you're wielding magickal permanent weapons, you can cast spells. If you're wielding non-magickal anything, you cant cast spells. So, one of the reasons I wanted to start a new thread is that I think there are a slew of other issues here. For one, the style is highly dependent on class. I wouldn't roll a drov into combat the same way I would roll a Rukkian. And for two, there's a question of buffs. For example, as a Ruk I would equip differently whether I was using Godspeed or Stoneskin. Thirdly, there are weapon effects to take into account. (For instance, with Rukkian weapons they drop emotes about your opponents skin cracking randomly on hit.) I'm not sure what these various effects all are, but if your weapons have them a strong case could possibly be made for dual wield, as it potentially doubles your likelyhood of inflicting the bonus effects. Discuss?
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Post by mekillot on Mar 25, 2014 17:39:39 GMT -5
Dual wield is really weak. It has an innate hit penalty, and as a mage your skill cap is very low. Two-handed is better because it will hit more often then not ever, unlike the off-hand in dual wield. Shield-use is best, but only Vivs can make the water shields.
Unless the mage actually skills off/def up, the weapons don't do a lot. They're used for the 'armed' flag so you don't have fat combat penalties.
That being said, a rukkian/krathi can buff their str high enough to destroy anyone they're able to hit. Anyone with parry topped out is basically safe from that though.
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Post by lulz on Mar 25, 2014 21:51:50 GMT -5
From my experience (not personal, mind you, but witnessing other mages), the best thing to do is to buff your offense/defense as much as possible.
Hell, join the Byn and don't manifest until after you've trained for 20 or so days with a two-handed mace or spear.
Each mage class aside from Nilaz in my opinion is capable of decent combat.
That being said, I'd refrain from engaging in any combat whatsoever unless properly buffed on your Rukkian/RANGGED OUT Krathi.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 22:20:52 GMT -5
Has anyone ever had good experience meleeing with a Nilazi by the way? It seems their magick weapon is the worst out there. Understandably they're not ment to be single meleers of doom and I always found it kind of twinky for a Nilazi to use other elementalists artifacts. Wouldnt they like wither and die due to nilaz and all that?
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Post by lulz on Mar 25, 2014 22:37:11 GMT -5
Has anyone ever had good experience meleeing with a Nilazi by the way? It seems their magick weapon is the worst out there. Understandably they're not ment to be single meleers of doom and I always found it kind of twinky for a Nilazi to use other elementalists artifacts. Wouldnt they like wither and die due to nilaz and all that? Yeah, realistically they should (regarding your question of whether the artifacts should wither and die), but I don't think that's the case. I never relied on combat with my Nilazis, I just let my undead army tank for me. That being said, I rather liked the vampiric weapons. If by some chance you DO attack, they leech your opponent's HP and transfer it to you. That's all IIRC though, I could be thinking silly right now.
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Post by tektolnes on Mar 25, 2014 23:08:16 GMT -5
Hell, join the Byn and don't manifest until after you've trained for 20 or so days with a two-handed mace or spear. I would go crazy doing this. Way too easy to die to spiders, gith, etc when you've got essentially no combat skills. However, the guy who pulls this off will be scary AS FUCK about 5 days after he manifests. That being said, it's mildly amusing how many mages don't see the benefit in training melee. Sure, everyone besides Rukkians have a better card up their sleeve than going straight for the attack, but I played with a gemmer once who could melee tembos without any buffs or spells - just mundane gear. Which is crazy, since a lot of long lived and self-proclaimed scary, mages could barely take a gurth in under 5 minutes without their buffs... mekillot - Good point on the dual wield penalties. It's interesting that most mages I've seen tend to go with dual wield over etwo (most players in general). Probably because half of them are godsped or quickened, and want to have the visual of raining down flurries. So, what are the magickal weapon / shield qualities? Most of them seem to have a special property / effect? Is there a difference between wek-sul and Mon/Perma casts? Which ones do you think are best and why? From my experience (Take with a grain of salt): Rukkian - Mon weapon does a "<target>'s skin hardens and cracks" on hit sometimes. - Lowers defense??? Vivaduan - Shield has a number of charges of heal or regen on it? Krathi - High damage Drovian - Frequently ignores armor (echoes phasing through the armor). Might cause curse as well, IIRC??? Whiran - Shield casts repel on opponents??? (I know Wind Armor does, not sure if the shield does as well...) Elkran - No idea. I thought these used to cast paralyze, but don't believe that is the case any longer. Nilazi - Never used one, but I think they're vampiric?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 23:10:13 GMT -5
Yeah, they are vampiric. But I didnt notice any extra damage, or extra offense. There's no burning, or weakening, or cursing effects. It seemed like a regular weapon to me. Except when you do hit, you regen hp. Which would've been okey if you had sanctuary or stoneskin on, but you dont. But yeah, anyway. Nilazi are probably the only 'true' mages for whom pure melee is not an option. I guess a Nilazi weapon could be pretty cool to use for a defiler though.
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Post by lulz on Mar 25, 2014 23:24:40 GMT -5
It's been FAR too long and I'm fairly hazy on a lot of finer points, but I'll try and take a stab at this. Rukkian - Mon weapon does a "<target>'s skin hardens and cracks" on hit sometimes. - Lowers defense??? It could, but the best way to confirm would be to spar your rukkian buddy and check your score every time you see the skin crack. Vivaduan - Shield has a number of charges of heal or regen on it? They also cast invuln on wearer. Mages can remove, immediately re-equip and get invuln once more. Fine line between roleplaying and twinking, there. Never really played much with Krathi aside from maxxing one played by a friend of mine. Drovian - Frequently ignores armor (echoes phasing through the armor). Might cause curse as well, IIRC??? Fairly certain it can bypass armor, yeah, and I've *heard* it can curse, but I can't confirm. Whiran - Shield casts repel on opponents??? IIRC whiran shields can, if you block a strike, disarm. They may even banish the blade, shit I can't remember. Elkran - No idea. I thought these used to cast paralyze, but don't believe that is the case any longer. They may have, but I honestly can't remember. Lightning whips are great since they're not based on a weapon skill I know of, thus no one will be able to properly defend them. Are they considered a subset of slashing? I've heard that bandied about now and then. Nilazi - Never used one, but I think they're vampiric? Correct, IIRC.
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Post by tektolnes on Mar 25, 2014 23:37:51 GMT -5
Vivaduan - Shield has a number of charges of heal or regen on it? They also cast invuln on wearer. Mages can remove, immediately re-equip and get invuln once more. Fine line between roleplaying and twinking, there. It's fine as long as you yell "Go go gadget shield!" when you do it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 23:44:18 GMT -5
Rukkians can weaken I believe. Drovians ignore armor, high +off, and curse. I never had it confirmed whether or not it blinded, but sometimes I witnessed my opponents get shitty so disastrously, it might possibly blind. It's a little hard to find out as a drovian, since blind is basically the first spell you're going to cast if you want to actually kill the guy/disable the guy. By the time the weapon triggers a side effect, your opponent is probably sul blinded/cursed/dead already. Krathi deal hightened damage, plus their suls are hammers. Add + to offense and stun damaging weapons, they are very scary. I believe elkrosian whips are a subset of slashing. Truth be said, I never used a mon elkros one. If it's a spear, then it should have a bonus to offense, but I would be guessing right now. Viv Shields raise invuln every second tick. So you dont really need to unwield/wield it to get the shield on. It just wont raise in time of the second time you get hit, but will on the tick after the next one. Sul shields have 5 invuln charges. I believe Mon ones do too. In a sense, a mon shield is kind of shittier then a sul. Because if a shield runs out of charges on a viv, he can just create a new one with 5 charges anew and junk the previous one. While with a mon one, you'd have to wait for it to turn inert, then redonate. Unless I am misremembering this. Oh and of course, viv shields regen your hp at 7 hp per 40 seconds. Whiran shields grant Wind Armor if I remember right. Which makes you immune to summon and sandstorms. As well as reasonable protection against arrows and backstab. I might be misremembering this as well. I only had a wind shield while I ran a sorc, so I already had wind armor on most of the time. Nilazi blades are vampiric. They also have ... another side effect, which I'll let you guys find out yourself . Word of caution to Nilazies. If you're ever running a semi-manifested Nilazi who has not grown alien and still clings to neutral nature to the land, dont play with undead, or use the blade.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 23:48:41 GMT -5
As a non viv. My most favorite artifact is a viv shield. My immoral magical villains of any element, have robbed a vivaduan of a mon shield within first month of gameplay, pretty much every time. Unlike Whiran shield, invuln is invisible to the naked eye. So all those people who try to OHK my weak melee magicker with a backstab or an arrow, suddenly end up with bubkis.
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Post by lulz on Mar 26, 2014 0:22:10 GMT -5
Rukkians can weaken I believe. Viv Shields raise invuln every second tick. So you dont really need to unwield/wield it to get the shield on. Are you certain? I never had that happen to me while wielding a shield. I always had to unequip/re-equip to get invuln back up. I would receive the "wash over your wounds" echo or whatever every thirty seconds or so, though, right. Whiran shields grant Wind Armor if I remember right. Which makes you immune to summon and sandstorms. As well as reasonable protection against arrows and backstab. That's riiight, I forgot about that. Nilazi blades are vampiric. They also have ... another side effect, which I'll let you guys find out yourself . Word of caution to Nilazies. If you're ever running a semi-manifested Nilazi who has not grown alien and still clings to neutral nature to the land, dont play with undead, or use the blade. I know what you're referring to, heh. You basically gave it away later in the post, though. =P
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 0:49:17 GMT -5
Yeah. I know. I just figured it's unfair for first time nilazi to not know something a second time nilazi would know. But for non-nilazi it's ... even more fun and I left that bit out.
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Post by lulz on Mar 26, 2014 0:55:11 GMT -5
I'll respect that and not say anything then.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 0:57:55 GMT -5
I was fighting this guy who was wielding two viv shields at once. In his primary and off-hand. It's possible, and he was basically barefisting me back (and kicking my ass). He was being healed 14 hp per 40 seconds (7 x 2), and his shields would go up every so often. Plus he was blocking my hits rather often. If you're wielding shits you still punch for whatever reason.
Then I went something like. Oh hey, check this out and casted mon dispel. Busted both of his sul shields, a mon ring I made for him, and his sanctuary. It was a friendly spar, lots of facepalming to be had. But in retrospect. If he sul poisoned me and then just neutralized my magick with calm/silence. He would've fucked me up theoretically.
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