my2sids
Displaced Tuluki
Posts: 341 
|
Post by my2sids on May 16, 2020 7:03:15 GMT -5
|
|
baobob
Clueless newb
Posts: 119
|
Post by baobob on May 16, 2020 11:49:26 GMT -5
Real talk though, did the Muark even ever steal babies? I am pretty sure that was just a spurious IC superstition that never actually happened in the lore. Yes. Kinda. Any child born to a Muark used to be taken back to their private sheltered land and the non-Muarki father/mother would almost certainly never be allowed to see them again. |
|
nile
Clueless newb
Posts: 87
|
Post by nile on May 16, 2020 21:31:33 GMT -5
rofl i was so naive i never even put together the whole necker/necker thing. probs cuz im not american. but in a DnD setting, eh, racism is often an inherent part of it. would be more inclined to say it's a play on words than any sort of attempt at igniting some RL world racism.
|
|
jimp
staff puppet account
Posts: 10
|
Post by jimp on May 16, 2020 23:54:52 GMT -5
I think there are a lot of different ways to point out the archaic concepts of 'progressive' in arm's going senile community rather than the removal of arguably offensive words and pseudo-slurs which are out of place already and come from decades ago (which is fine). Having a meltdown over being told "you can't say gypsie" sounds like a meltdown over being told you can't say gypsie more than anything else, and you should probably just say that instead of trying to shoddily build a sense of care for an issue you're pretending to care about.
Then again this is a thread couldn't get through the first post without Hitler analogies so perhaps criticisms of senility and being out of touch are best saved for other places.
|
|
punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098 
|
Post by punished ppurg on May 17, 2020 1:09:57 GMT -5
What is with the influx of enlightened centrists on these boards these days? "Armageddon makes dumb decision, but you are dumb in your reaction to it. I am very smart." Could you just not post, and save me from the disappointment of having to read your junk?
|
|
|
|
Post by jcarter on May 17, 2020 8:02:25 GMT -5
I think there are a lot of different ways to point out the archaic concepts of 'progressive' in arm's going senile community rather than the removal of arguably offensive words and pseudo-slurs which are out of place already and come from decades ago (which is fine). Having a meltdown over being told "you can't say gypsie" sounds like a meltdown over being told you can't say gypsie more than anything else, and you should probably just say that instead of trying to shoddily build a sense of care for an issue you're pretending to care about. Then again this is a thread couldn't get through the first post without Hitler analogies so perhaps criticisms of senility and being out of touch are best saved for other places. meltdown is hyperbolic but yeah people are rightfully criticizing staff for shifting the onus of responsibility onto players. it's bizarre for staff to add 'gypsy' to the list of no-no words, while putting forth substantial effort to revive a racist caricature of gypsies that embodies and thrives on every stereotype of them. the concern over sullying ~the good name of the romani people~ comes across as hollow. |
|
gristle
staff puppet account
Posts: 26
|
Post by gristle on May 17, 2020 11:23:08 GMT -5
What is with the influx of enlightened centrists on these boards these days? "Armageddon makes dumb decision, but you are dumb in your reaction to it. I am very smart." Could you just not post, and save me from the disappointment of having to read your junk? God forbid anyone disrupt the one man ppurg show of ranting about a game you haven't played for 8 years. |
|
punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
|
Post by punished ppurg on May 17, 2020 14:44:59 GMT -5
I actually got back into Armageddon for a couple weeks recently. Blame Coronavirus.
What I found was, frankly, nothing surprising or interesting. The misery of starting off useless and grinding, with the general social ennui of the entire playerbase, means that Armageddon is in a stagnant state for the overwhelming majority of its uptime. Of the 73 PLAYERS!!!! 73 PLAYERS!!!! online at any peak during this global pandemic, maybe 10% are worth playing with: maybe 10% are not just wastes of socket space, phoning in to a Skinner box. It's an abysmal experience. What Armageddon has suffered is something I would compare to brain drain. The great players of yesteryear have said their goodbyes and went on to something more respectful of their time; and have been replaced with the sort of person that doesn't value their personal investment in the game (or, perhaps, has marginally little faculties to invest in the game to begin with). This reflects well throughout the playerbase but also the staff team. The Armageddon so-called storytellers had a unique opportunity here, once in a decade, to put together something special for the Armageddon experience with these high numbers in these uncertain times: instead, they're opening the Gypsies. Disappointment isn't a strong enough word. The game isn't worthy of its inheritance that better writers built and abandoned.
|
|
jimp
staff puppet account
Posts: 10
|
Post by jimp on May 17, 2020 19:01:28 GMT -5
If issues such as baby-stealing and unwanted migrants leads to good RP then by all means have it in the game, so long as it doesn't seem like analogous criticism, which they are attempting to avoid by removing such terms. In the same way that having a race cordoned off to low-income areas who are known to steal and commit other crimes has a lot better optics when there isn't a inferred "nigga" word attached to it. It's been made clear that the original intent of the clan was careless, attempting to reshape it rather than sweep it under the rug for people to always drag it back up and go "remember when arm was racist" seems like what I would do if I were in that position. Every Einstein's complaint here is basically about how that word epitomizes everything the clan is supposed to represent, which has been acknowledged publicly by the people who are trying to change it, so congrats on the discovery but you're just agreeing with them. I think every complaint about bringing this clan back before any other is valid, and that is showing in game currently because no one gives a shit about them from what I've seen and it's pretty funny. |
|
|
|
Post by jcarter on May 18, 2020 9:50:52 GMT -5
If issues such as baby-stealing and unwanted migrants leads to good RP then by all means have it in the game, so long as it doesn't seem like analogous criticism, which they are attempting to avoid by removing such terms. In the same way that having a race cordoned off to low-income areas who are known to steal and commit other crimes has a lot better optics when there isn't a inferred "nigga" word attached to it. It's been made clear that the original intent of the clan was careless, attempting to reshape it rather than sweep it under the rug for people to always drag it back up and go "remember when arm was racist" seems like what I would do if I were in that position. there's a difference between the necker situation and gypsies. tan muark are undeniably fetishized gypsies. the entire clan is built off of this and adding gypsies to the list of no-no words doesn't change or 'reshape' it. changing the name doesn't remove the 'arm is racist' criticism, but instead makes it worse since staff openly acknowledged it yet are going through painstaking effort to force it into the game despite no one wanting or asking for it. |
|
jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
|
Post by jkarr on May 18, 2020 11:06:39 GMT -5
changing the name doesn't remove the 'arm is racist' criticism, but instead makes it worse since staff openly acknowledged it yet are going through painstaking effort to force it into the game despite no one wanting or asking for it. yup theyre willing to 'safely' exploit the same racist shit by taking away labels and pushing the same fucking thing out to boost new player curiosity and vet nostalgia |
|
jimp
staff puppet account
Posts: 10
|
Post by jimp on May 18, 2020 15:15:00 GMT -5
If you think the subject matter alone is too owned by a stereotype to separate it from them, and harmful enough to keep it out of the game entirely like rape, then I suppose that is your argument.
I don't get black and white film-reel flashbacks of my past lives as a Romani traveler by the mere discussion of baby stealing, I can separate is from the stereotype and let that subject matter live in my fantasy game. This is assisted by the fact that stereotype is not directly referenced.
|
|
jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,070
|
Post by jkarr on May 18, 2020 15:43:54 GMT -5
If you think the subject matter alone is too owned by a stereotype to separate it from them, and harmful enough to keep it out of the game entirely like rape, then I suppose that is your argument. I don't get black and white film-reel flashbacks of my past lives as a Romani traveler by the mere discussion of baby stealing, I can separate is from the stereotype and let that subject matter live in my fantasy game. This is assisted by the fact that stereotype is not directly referenced. bottom line they dont really care whether theyre promoting the stereotypes and are only removing the labels so they can get the same use from letting ppl play stereotyped gypsies all of this after moving literal mountains ig to destroy them before |
|
|
|
Post by jcarter on May 18, 2020 18:21:14 GMT -5
If you think the subject matter alone is too owned by a stereotype to separate it from them, and harmful enough to keep it out of the game entirely like rape, then I suppose that is your argument. I don't get black and white film-reel flashbacks of my past lives as a Romani traveler by the mere discussion of baby stealing, I can separate is from the stereotype and let that subject matter live in my fantasy game. This is assisted by the fact that stereotype is not directly referenced. lol there's nothing to separate. the tan muark are still a tribe of wagon-traveling, brightly dressed promiscuous fortune-tellers that are known for stealing. just because you aren't allowed to call them gypsies doesn't make them less of a caricature of gypsies. and yeah the subject matter is 100% owned by the stereotype. the fucking clan was literally based on being a caricature of gypsies, making people call them something else doesn't change that. the bizarre thing is that it was out of the game entirely, but staff chose to reintroduce it while acknowledging it's derogatory towards a group of people and doing absolutely nothing to change it. |
|
punished ppurg
GDB Superstar
Why are we still here? Just to suffer?
Posts: 1,098
|
Post by punished ppurg on May 18, 2020 19:13:40 GMT -5
Like I've said before, a content creator with integrity would look at what the Gypsies did right and create an improved, spiritual successor. To bring back the Tan Muarki and say "Don't call them gypsies, please" is creatively bankrupt.
How much harder would it have been to reintroduce the concept of a wagon-traveling nomadic group without relying on the nostalgiabait of a caricature? I don't know if they're capable of it.
|
|
