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Post by lechuck on Jun 9, 2020 16:35:25 GMT -5
That's just a guess based on the fact that I got AI strength four times out of six, which would be really improbable if it was only +1. Basically it felt about as common as pickpockets with agility, and they got +2. I'm not sure about it, though. I've also had AI agility on an enforcer (one that wasn't particularly young), and I had previously believed that you could only get AI if you had a stat bonus. So it may be that enforcer gets +1 strength and agility, and that I was just bizarrely lucky to see AI strength so many times in a small sample size.
The class is still nuts. Armageddon's bludgeoning weapons and strength stat are the two most broken things I've seen in any game. It's so unfathomably overpowered that one is forced to assume that staff keeps it that way because they like to take advantage of it. Giving a heavy combat class master sap is nothing short of ridiculous. When I played my human enforcer, sap was a 100% guaranteed OHK. Once I had the skill maxed and a good weapon, literally nothing ever made it through the sap. Giving that to a class with master parry and heavy-combat defense gains is pants-on-head retarded. Without even being egregiously over-skilled, I was able to one-hit someone in the Gaj (a hired assassination, calm down) and fend off the three NPC soldiers that came running in for the entire 20 second delay of sap without taking one hit, and calmly run away afterwards. Assassins could not do that.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,027
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Post by jkarr on Jun 9, 2020 19:22:10 GMT -5
That's just a guess based on the fact that I got AI strength four times out of six, which would be really improbable if it was only +1. Basically it felt about as common as pickpockets with agility, and they got +2. I'm not sure about it, though. I've also had AI agility on an enforcer (one that wasn't particularly young), and I had previously believed that you could only get AI if you had a stat bonus. So it may be that enforcer gets +1 strength and agility, and that I was just bizarrely lucky to see AI strength so many times in a small sample size. sounds like a barrel of fun lol watch there be another dwarf gaj sapping onslaught after ur post Armageddon's bludgeoning weapons and strength stat are the two most broken things I've seen in any game. It's so unfathomably overpowered that one is forced to assume that staff keeps it that way because they like to take advantage of it. yeah they must like it how it is Giving a heavy combat class master sap is nothing short of ridiculous. When I played my human enforcer, sap was a 100% guaranteed OHK. Once I had the skill maxed and a good weapon, literally nothing ever made it through the sap. Giving that to a class with master parry and heavy-combat defense gains is pants-on-head retarded. Without even being egregiously over-skilled, I was able to one-hit someone in the Gaj (a hired assassination, calm down) and fend off the three NPC soldiers that came running in for the entire 20 second delay of sap without taking one hit, and calmly run away afterwards. Assassins could not do that. so theres two things that dont link up here unless they changed sap which im going to bet again and say they didnt one maxxed sap is way longer than 20 seconds thats for backstab sap is at least twice as long as that nuless they changed it which again im guessing theyre too lazy to do esp when it comes to removing the one brake pad keeping ppl from doing exactly what ur talking abt two sap was rarely used because combined with the 40+ seconds of being unable to move range of its success even when maxed out was so wide that u couldnt comfortably rely on it landing unlike maxed backstab and if iirc it was actually u who concluded that enforcer sap prob didnt get any higher than assassins unless this is all a good play at getting a solid round of twinks killed acting on the wrong knowledge prob the only thing that does hold with what ur saying is ability to fend off a few guards even with the longer delay because i know warriors could do it and theyre supposed to be weaker that the heavy combat classes those logs should be a fun read tho
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Post by lechuck on Jun 10, 2020 1:38:26 GMT -5
No, sap's delay is not that long. I'm pretty sure it never was, and I'm not convinced it's longer than backstab. I don't even think it's quite 20 seconds, but it seems to depend on how close you are to the game's next internal tick (6 seconds). I'd venture to say that the delay is something like 3 ticks, but if the next tick comes up a second later, it's gonna be 13 seconds. If the tick happened just before, maybe it's 17½ seconds instead. I used to think it was longer because I'd tried it a couple of times and it felt unusually long, but after having used sap extensively, I know it isn't.
I do think that enforcers get 80 sap instead of 90, but I also suspect they only get 80 backstab. Other than that, it uses the exact same code to determine whether or not you hit. As long as you're hidden and have high agility, it lands just fine, especially on a sitting target. Sap is every bit as effective as backstab, and probably moreso if you're using a big-ass hammer. The only caveat is that it results in an unconscious target instead of a corpse, so you have to be able to finish off the sleeping target afterwards. In most cases that's not an issue at all.
Mechanically it's the same as backstab, the only core difference is the damage calculation where sap gets a lesser multiplier to offset the fact that you can use a two-handed weapon. The main reason people didn't use sap much in the past is because it branched off of backstab and only assassins got it to master, so if you already had maxed backstab anyway and the piercing skill from training it, it made little sense to switch to sap.
You pass beneath the shadow of the red sandstone templar statue. The Gladiator and the Gaj Tavern -- Main Room [N, E, S]
From somewhere in the crowd emerges the figure in a dark, hooded cloak with a weapon, right behind the short female wearing a dusty tattered grey sandcloth bandana.
You begin moving silently toward your victim.
You're now wanted! The short female wearing a dusty tattered grey sandcloth bandana's eyes roll back in her head. The short female wearing a dusty tattered grey sandcloth bandana crumples to the ground. You slam a [redacted, don't nerf] into the short female wearing a dusty tattered grey sandcloth bandana's head, just behind the ear.
A human Allanaki soldier runs in from the east. The dark-featured male soldier runs in from the south. A human Allanaki soldier runs in from the east.
A human Allanaki soldier shouts, in sirihish: "In the name of the Highlord!" A human Allanaki soldier draws a jade-emblazoned, obsidian longsword. A human Allanaki soldier draws a jade-emblazoned, obsidian shortsword. A human Allanaki soldier slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way. You shift your weight to parry a human Allanaki soldier's attack. The dark-featured male soldier sheathes a jade-emblazoned, obsidian scimitar. The dark-featured male soldier shouts, in sirihish: "Templars! A criminal!" The dark-featured male soldier draws a jade-handled obsidian dagger. The dark-featured male soldier draws a jade-emblazoned, obsidian scimitar. The dark-featured male soldier pierces at you, but you dodge out of the way. The dark-featured male soldier slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way. A human Allanaki soldier shouts, in sirihish: "In the name of the Highlord!" A human Allanaki soldier draws a jade-emblazoned, obsidian longsword. A human Allanaki soldier draws a jade-emblazoned, obsidian shortsword. A human Allanaki soldier slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way. You shift your weight to parry a human Allanaki soldier's attack.
You shift your weight to parry the dark-featured male soldier's attack. You deftly parry the dark-featured male soldier's attack. You do unspeakable damage to the short female wearing a dusty tattered grey sandcloth bandana's head with your bludgeon.
A human Allanaki soldier slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way. A human Allanaki soldier's kick at you is absorbed by your bracer. You deftly parry the dark-featured male soldier's attack. You barely manage to parry the dark-featured male soldier's attack.
You deftly parry A human Allanaki soldier's attack. A human Allanaki soldier slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way.
A human Allanaki soldier slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way. You shift your weight to parry A human Allanaki soldier's attack.
The dark-featured male soldier pierces at you, but you dodge out of the way. The dark-featured male soldier slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way. You shift your weight to parry A human Allanaki soldier's attack. A human Allanaki soldier slashes at you, but you dodge out of the way.
You attempt to flee. Caravan Road [E, S, W]
You carefully climb up.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,027
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Post by jkarr on Jun 10, 2020 8:03:41 GMT -5
No, sap's delay is not that long. I'm pretty sure it never was, and I'm not convinced it's longer than backstab. I don't even think it's quite 20 seconds, but it seems to depend on how close you are to the game's next internal tick (6 seconds). unless again theyve changed it then definitely not and u can ask just abt anyone else the delay is easily much longer and u had a decade and a half of playing and experimenting when even u said this The lag after sap is so long that it isn't worth using unless you're great at it. Even then it's kind of a liability because the lag is twice as long as that of backstab, and even if you do KO the target, you then have to further lag yourself by finishing him off or whatever. The odds of being walked in on by PCs or soldiers is really high when you have to stand there for 30+ seconds. like i said unless they changed it that shit has always been ridiculously long also ur tick argument doesnt hold any water because everyone knows ticks determine how long u wait before entering the command and seeing it attempted not the delay after the attempt because that part is fixed and thats the reason why u and everyone else has been able to make any consistent statements abt the post delay for everything from backstab to forage again if ur spewing this out for shits and giggles bravo but try harder if ur trying to fool ppl also nice log looks like a fun time lol
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Post by lechuck on Jun 10, 2020 8:38:08 GMT -5
That was four years ago, back when the only way to get master sap was to branch it off master backstab on an assassin. Most people's experience with sap at the time came from journeyman skill via pickpocket or a subguild. I've since experimented extensively with master sap and have come to different conclusions. I don't know if they've made code changes in the time since then--they haven't announced any.
And that's as much time as I want to waste arguing with dumb contrarians. You're consistently wrong about absolutely everything you post, and you're the first to insult everyone. You're never worth listening to, so I'm gonna stop doing that from now on.
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on Jun 10, 2020 10:35:57 GMT -5
That's just a guess based on the fact that I got AI strength four times out of six, which would be really improbable if it was only +1. Basically it felt about as common as pickpockets with agility, and they got +2. I'm not sure about it, though. I've also had AI agility on an enforcer (one that wasn't particularly young), and I had previously believed that you could only get AI if you had a stat bonus. So it may be that enforcer gets +1 strength and agility, and that I was just bizarrely lucky to see AI strength so many times in a small sample size. The class is still nuts. Armageddon's bludgeoning weapons and strength stat are the two most broken things I've seen in any game. It's so unfathomably overpowered that one is forced to assume that staff keeps it that way because they like to take advantage of it. Giving a heavy combat class master sap is nothing short of ridiculous. When I played my human enforcer, sap was a 100% guaranteed OHK. Once I had the skill maxed and a good weapon, literally nothing ever made it through the sap. Giving that to a class with master parry and heavy-combat defense gains is pants-on-head retarded. Without even being egregiously over-skilled, I was able to one-hit someone in the Gaj (a hired assassination, calm down) and fend off the three NPC soldiers that came running in for the entire 20 second delay of sap without taking one hit, and calmly run away afterwards. Assassins could not do that. You forgot a member of the trinity: It's str+bludgeoning+two-handed. But regarding changing this... You don't actually see it exploited that much, I don't think many people have done the calculations themselves and even fewer have posted them here and even fewer have bothered to look into it. So unless there's a movement where people start realizing that the trinity can get pretty wild, I wouldn't see the need to rock the boat so much.
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Post by lechuck on Jun 10, 2020 11:17:42 GMT -5
Two handed is definitely good, but if we were to talk about DPS (an ugly term, I know), I think dual wield's offensive potential is higher. Certainly against unarmed/unskilled targets where you can expect to land all your attacks. If you're fighting a skilled opponent, etwo probably wins out because it improves your defense and chance to hit a lot; but if you took two identical fighters except one is dw and the other is etwo, and had them hit a sparring dummy, I expect the dw char would deal 100 damage faster. It's way easier to skill up that way too, whereas etwo has to be raised separately from weapons once you get to journeyman-ish because it increases your chance to hit too much. In any case, I don't think two handed is overpowered the way strength and bludgeoning are.
It kind of depends what you're trying to accomplish with the character. If your goal is to murder unarmed aides, that can probably be done a little more effectively with dw. Two-handing a weapon doesn't add very much damage to backstab/sap, but the ability to use a two-handed weapon with a higher damdice of course does. There are no two-handed stabbing weapons, so etwo backstab is a bad idea. You'd be much better off with dw to land those double post-backstab hits and flee attacks. And if you're playing a heavy-combat class, you probably don't need the added defense of etwo in most cases. I did use it on my enforcer and it was hilarious to do unspeakable damage when hitting the head or neck, but 2x grievous would do considerably more damage. Also, the two handed skill is subject to the same offense vs defense skillgain check as weapon skills whereas dual wield, according to staff, is not.
At the end of the day, if you have peak strength and high offense/weaponskill, it doesn't matter a whole lot whether you dw or etwo. You will absolutely annihilate anything that isn't even more skilled than you, and given how combat skills tend to plateau, almost nobody actually maxes out. 95% of combat chars end up at roughly the same level of offense, defense and weapons, so stats, luck and weapon choice becomes the decider in most cases. Bludgeoning will simply always beat the other skills if all else is equal, unless you introduce peraine to the equation. That's probably the only thing that comes close to equalizing things, but most chars don't have access to peraine, and you can only poison piercing weapons and the lightest swords which tend to have garbage damage.
Of course, none of that counts for anything when you just take a peraine arrow to the knee.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,027
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Post by jkarr on Jun 10, 2020 11:35:33 GMT -5
That was four years ago, back when the only way to get master sap was to branch it off master backstab on an assassin. Most people's experience with sap at the time came from journeyman skill via pickpocket or a subguild. yeah any pickpocket trying that was going to get destroyed I've since experimented extensively with master sap and have come to different conclusions. I don't know if they've made code changes in the time since then--they haven't announced any. yeah thats why i figured they havent And that's as much time as I want to waste arguing with dumb contrarians. You're consistently wrong about absolutely everything you post wrong 1st u urself made the exact same pt about the fucked up sap delay so that would make u just as consistenyl wrong two its a simple fact that the tick timer only affects the pre action delay and not the post action delay and i bet if u tested it now aint shit changed three my money is on them not having done anything to make an already deadly tool even more dangerous because those kinds of skills are the last things they like making it easier for ppl to use to fuck ppl facts and if its just the ribbing thats got ur bottom sore well then ive got nothing lol
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Post by lechuck on Jun 10, 2020 12:36:38 GMT -5
Do you have some kind of sick compulsion about calling people out or something? What the hell? I corrected an observation I made years ago after further testing, and posted it here. For some reason you're falling over yourself to scream and shout about how wrong I am, like you get some kind of loser's glee out of it. You don't know shit about the code, but you're desperate to go "ur wrong ur wrong hahaaa ur sooo wrong" like you have the self-esteem of Trump or something. And you do this shit all the time, without ever being right about anything yourself. Time and time again you post absurd ideas and wildly inaccurate interpretations of the code. You don't contribute with anything useful of your own, you just sit here all day being a contrarian idiot and insulting people when you are in fact by far the dumbest and most annoying person in this community ever since Qwerty left. And that's why I'm going to set your posts to hidden from now on.
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jkarr
GDB Superstar
Posts: 2,027
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Post by jkarr on Jun 10, 2020 13:33:03 GMT -5
Do you have some kind of sick compulsion about calling people out or something? ill prob throw in my change if someone is passing off as fact something i knew to be wrong What the hell? I corrected an observation I made years ago after further testing, and posted it here. For some reason you're falling over yourself to scream and shout about how wrong I am, like you get some kind of loser's glee out of it. no i brought it up a 2nd time because u said i was wrong abt everything and the irony being u were not only wrong abt that but u agreed with me at one pt on one of those same pts before changing ur tune You don't know shit about the code, but you're desperate to go "ur wrong ur wrong hahaaa ur sooo wrong" like you have the self-esteem of Trump or something. hey listen im sure there are groups if ur still buttsore abt being corrected on tick timers by someone whose not supposed to know shit abt code lol i can see how that could hurt And you do this shit all the time, without ever being right about anything yourself. yep because tick timers affect the post delay right Time and time again you post absurd ideas and wildly inaccurate interpretations of the code. You don't contribute with anything useful of your own, you just sit here all day being a contrarian idiot and insulting people when you are in fact by far the dumbest and most annoying person in this community ever since Qwerty left. And that's why I'm going to set your posts to hidden from now on. u begin moving silently toward ur victim u slam an inconvenient fact into lechucks head just behind the ear lechuck reels from the tick - certainly not the fixed post delay lechuck panics and attempts to flee
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on Jun 11, 2020 5:03:01 GMT -5
I'm thinking more in terms of non back-stab (so, you could say non planned-PvP) combat.
I would still opt for two handed because of the damage multipliers that "synergise" with the strength/bludgeoning bonus.
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Post by lechuck on Jun 11, 2020 6:20:54 GMT -5
Well, then it still depends on your exact goals. Trying to win a fight against a tough opponent? Etwo probably comes out ahead due to the bonuses to defense and offense. The increased attack speed and strength multiplier is good as well, but it doesn't add up to the same amount of raw offensive power as dual wield. By my eyeball estimation, etwo results in something like 30% faster attack speed on average (depends on skill level, of course) whereas dw just doubles the amount of attacks you make, and since dual wield is easier to raise than weapons, your off-hand attacks can be better than your main hand. You could very well end up with maxed dual wield while still stuck at journeyman or low advanced weapons, and dual wield basically just counts as your weapon skill for the off-hand attack. Applying your strength bonus twice per round is inherently stronger than getting some percentage bonus to your strength, so in the end it mostly comes down to the value of etwo's off/def bonus. Keep in mind that dw boosts parry. So if the opponent is tough and it ends up being a matter of skillchecks, etwo could come out ahead. However, unless you land headshots with a maul or something, it can be difficult to actually straight-up kill someone in melee with etwo because the "burst potential" is lower than with dual wield where you could land a double grievous and then another double hit if they flee. The reel delay is not that long, after all, so you're unlikely to get another swing in before the other guy has a chance to flee. Getting reel-locked in 1v1 isn't something that really happens much, if at all. It's more of a concern if you're getting dogpiled. If you really want to kill someone quickly in melee combat and you know they aren't particularly badass, dual wield is the way to go. You need to land those 2x viciously+ hits or the guy just gets to run away. Attack speed is a weird thing on Armageddon. From my tests, there's a "round" every three seconds, and that's the fastest you can attack. Every round, each combatant does a hidden check to see if they get to swing. It's a compound of all kinds of things: agility, offense, weapon skill, weapon weight, and two handed skill if used. There may be other factors as well. This is why you'll sometimes swing a bunch of times in rapid succession and sometimes not at all for ages. If you're skilled and agile enough, you can consistently attack every three seconds even if you don't etwo, in which case the attack speed portion of the two handed skill isn't worth so much. When sneazy compiled the codedump into a playable port, I experimented with this a lot, and a character with master weapons and equivalent offense would attack on almost every 3-second round no matter their combat mode or agility. Two handed and agility mattered a lot when you didn't have very high offense and weapons, though. That thing where two people meet on a dune and fight to the death in melee combat is not something that happens very much in this game. It's too easy to flee and just speedwalk away, which is why everyone resorts to backstab or peraine or at least max strength and bludgeoning to fish for those knockout headshots. Two dudes with swords will be almost unable to kill eachother unless the loser simply decides to stay and die. Bludgeoning is the big wildcard here as a strong guy with a hammer could hit you in the head for 80+ stun at any moment, but it's not statistically likely to happen before you can type 'flee' when you see him land a wounding hit to your leg and realize what you're up against. Shield use bears mentioning as well. While it's pretty bad for killing people (unless you have them trapped somehow), it's insanely good for defense. I think it would beat the other two styles in simulations. If your main concern is surviving when some idiot runs up and starts swinging at you, shield use is a good bet. It won't give you those sudden damage spikes that take your opponent by surprise, but it makes you so much tankier than anything else. This is kind of an advantage to dual wield because it's a lot easier to switch from dw to a shield than if you're using an actual two-handed weapon. Now, if I'm playing something other than a heavy-combat class, etwo looks a lot more attractive because I won't have master parry and shield use. Suddenly that defense boost is a big deal. If I was to play a scout or soldier or whatever, I would definitely rock etwo. It's the only way to really feel comfortable on those classes, and to compensate for the lower chance to gain off/def. But if I'm playing a heavy with master combat skills and boosted chance to gain off/def, I think dual wield with a backup shield is probably the way to go. That's not to say etwo is bad on an enforcer, mine was an absolute beast with it, but my theorycrafting favors the double swings of dw and the option to instantly switch to turtle mode with a shield when that twink mul comes around.
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Post by lechuck on Jun 11, 2020 6:56:37 GMT -5
As I wrote that, I realized how absurd it is that there's an entire separate combat meta for high-strength melee. None of the above is much of a consideration without high strength. If you don't have at least EG, and preferably EX, combat is just completely different because it suddenly takes 15 hits to kill someone. It's as big of a gulf as the difference between journeyman and master weapon skills; sure, you can kill a lot of shit with jman and a lot of players are satisfied with it, but master is another ballpark entirely. Same goes for strength. None of the other stats come remotely close to mattering this much, no matter what GDB retards will insist on. There's a reason the high karma races are the strength-based ones, there's a reason griefers roll dwarves, and there's a reason people who know what they're doing prioritize strength and consistently beat the ones who don't.
With Arm's ridiculous stat system which allows you to roll high strength and agility+endurance, why wouldn't you go strength every time? Maybe if high strength came at some kind of cost, but it doesn't. My enforcer had AI strength and exceptional agility, and like 114 hit points as well because why the fuck not. If Brokkr and Nessalin had the slightest grain of sense, they'd redesign the stat system so that you can't just have the best of all worlds. The grotesquely overpowered damage from strength would be somewhat easier to stomach if rolling EX/AI strength meant you couldn't have more than good agility and endurance.
I've played skilled fighters with middling strength. Even at VG, you just don't do the kind of damage that it takes to make use of melee combat in PvP. You can still kill people with backstab and poisons and apartment fuckery, which the aforementioned retards will fall over themselves to mention; but it's not like you couldn't also do that, and more effectively, with a high-strength char. If you land 'good' strength, most of your hits will do <10 damage. Weapon skills don't affect damage, it's literally just strength and weapon dice. Oh, yeah, and two handed skill which amplifies your strength bonus, just to make everything even worse.
Weapons generally deal D&D-like damage, so a longsword or mace is in the neighborhood of 1d8. Getting +4 from strength literally doubles your average hit. And +4 is just exceptional. My AI strength enforcer with advanced two handed got +8 base damage per swing from strength alone. With a bludgeoning weapon (180% stun modifier) and a hit to the head (400% stun multiplier), that ends up being +63 fucking damage. And that was on a human. If it had been a dwarf, it's probably closer to 90. That's not a 90 damage swing, that's a +90 damage bonus from your fucking strength stat. Add the weapon's damdice and you go into the 120s. Meanwhile, if you have 14 strength (good), you get a big fat 0 outside the weapon's damdice and the +80% stun damage from bludgeoning.
If you take a guy with 14 strength and say he rolls a 4 with his 1d8 weapon, and hits you in the head with a mace. That's 28 stun damage (x4 for head, x1.8 stun for bludgeoning). My enforcer with the same weapon roll would deal about 90 thanks to strength alone. This is with an average roll on a shitty 1d8 mace, too--now imagine a two-handed maul. It gets worse when you look at the minimum damage. If you roll 1, Mr. Good Strength deals 7 stun damage whereas my enforcer would have done 70ish stun damage because of the +5 from strength and the etwo bonus on top. How can anybody look at that and say this isn't utterly broken? Even if they change nothing else, they really have to change the fact that strength is applied before the hit location multiplier.
Meanwhile, agility's influence on combat is minimal unless you get into the upper end of the elf scale, and even if you do, it just doesn't even begin to come close to what you get out of strength. But then you get imbeciles like X-D whose maxed out delf with overpowered pre-nerf Sun Runner weapons once killed a 2-day HG who was stupid enough to stand there and take 20 hits in a row, and he'll tell you that the stats are totally balanced and you're the one who doesn't know how to play.
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kannot
Clueless newb
Posts: 126
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Post by kannot on Jun 11, 2020 7:07:38 GMT -5
detailed post, very interesting. Seems I might have not been giving dual wield enough credit.
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Post by lechuck on Jun 11, 2020 7:40:46 GMT -5
I mean, both are pretty good. The fighting styles are actually quite balanced overall. If you ignore strength and bludgeoning weapons (and maybe peraine which really shouldn't be instantaneous), Armageddon's combat system is in fact quite robust, even though it's older than fire.
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