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Post by Cockasix on Feb 22, 2020 18:49:48 GMT -5
So this was a while ago but it recently has been bugging me. So people who post here are typically on staff's shit list because of shit talking and ic info and code leaks that staff would assume you use to metagame. Could playing apoc be considered the same and get you on the shit list for playing another game that has pretty much the same code and magick system as arm even though its another damn game and I would assume they wouldn't stoop as low as to punish you for playing another game? My second thought goes along with what I posted, since it is same code, same magick system etc... As petty as shalooonsh is could there be a partial point in what he said since the code isn't unique to apoc, it was copied from arm? Now even if that is the case it would still be bullshit in my mind since apoc does have some differences and you can obviously see that there is some passion being put into the game and its not an attempt to (be salty and shitty).
Your thoughts?
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
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Post by Jeshin on Feb 22, 2020 19:20:28 GMT -5
Historically games with copied codebases tend to be boycott within the hobby. Armageddon does have distinct updates to it beyond simply being a DIKU-derivative making it a unique codebase that would traditionally get boycott support if TMC boards still existed at stuff. I don't remember if the Armageddon codebase was hacked or leaked by a staffer with access (but not permission from the owners). There is a minor difference ethically about the obtaining of the code but both cases would once again traditionally get boycott support in the community. I do believe Apoc didn't get DBs which means the grid and items are unique to their game so it's not a 1:1 rip which doesn't change the fundamental question but it does mean that it's not just a straight Arm clone.
I do think it's rich that Armageddon is crying about IP given the Dark Sun matter which they lucked out and WOTC stopped caring but I think any game staff would rightfully disapprove of a game operating in the same setting with the base code being theirs.
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nergal
staff puppet account
Noted Liar
Posts: 46
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Post by nergal on Feb 23, 2020 7:57:56 GMT -5
My main thoughts are:
Literally anyone can put you on a shit list for literally anything.
If people are going to put you on a shit list for something unjustifiable, perhaps they are not worth considering how to please.
Do no harm, do what you enjoy, and don't worry about what other people think about you for it.
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vex
Clueless newb
Posts: 133
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Post by vex on Feb 23, 2020 17:32:30 GMT -5
Thomoto, why are you being salty and shitty, posting on these wrong forums, and playing the wrong game on the side?
Do you support plagiarism? Are you a devil? A vampire devil? You must be. I'm so disappointed in you. I believed in you. I thought you were better than this. I'm so hurt that you'd do this to me. To us!
We're through, Thomoto. I can't trust you anymore. I'm turning my back, and keeping the cat.
I hope your new game makes you happy, since obviously I couldn't!
Goodbye, Thomoto.
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Post by Cockasix on Feb 24, 2020 4:00:21 GMT -5
Thomoto, why are you being salty and shitty, posting on these wrong forums, and playing the wrong game on the side? Do you support plagiarism? Are you a devil? A vampire devil? You must be. I'm so disappointed in you. I believed in you. I thought you were better than this. I'm so hurt that you'd do this to me. To us! We're through, Thomoto. I can't trust you anymore. I'm turning my back, and keeping the cat. I hope your new game makes you happy, since obviously I couldn't! Goodbye, Thomoto. I’m sorry? Also what are YOU doing posting here on the wrong forum’s vex? The only traitor here is you (and me). |
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gdbjohn
staff puppet account
Posts: 25
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Post by gdbjohn on Feb 24, 2020 6:36:51 GMT -5
If people are going to put you on a shit list for something unjustifiable, perhaps they are not worth considering how to please. Listen to Nergal. He should know about this. |
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joe
Clueless newb
Posts: 54
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Post by joe on Feb 25, 2020 7:34:36 GMT -5
It's Diku code. It's Darksun.
I checked out the website and those are the overlaps I saw.
It's laughable to bring up the word plagiarism, but it's similar to how I feel about the system of facebook groups that I designed (on facebook's system) and someone else copied...it isn't mine.
I'm going to check it out, and I hope it gives them a 'run for their money' but also reminds them that it is a community that is built up by every member, even the newbies making mistakes.
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Post by lechuck on Feb 25, 2020 9:25:34 GMT -5
I mean, let's be rational here: it definitely is plagiarism. The issue is whether or not that matters. I doubt ArmageddonMUD has their code legally copyrighted, and since they aren't making a profit, maybe there's even a question of fair use. But they did take the game's code against staff's will and use it to make their own game. If these were professional game developers, Arm would win a lawsuit any day of the week. It's just that they aren't, and it's DIKU, so there's probably no legal recourse.
That's undeniably what it is. We can say that we don't care, we can say that Armageddon's shitty staff had it coming, but we can't say Apocalypse isn't built on stolen code. I don't personally give a fuck that it is, but denying that it's the case just makes us and Apoc's community sound like idiots. In no other sphere of software development would anyone be expected to just placidly accept that someone stole their code and made a product that imitated theirs. It's the literal definition of plagiarism.
The petulant response from Arm's staff is a little funny since they frankly have no reason to feel threatened by such a small project that isn't even being advertised within the broader MUD community, but it's still definitely a case where they aren't actually in the wrong. And you know I'm not some fanboy staff apologist.
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Post by jcarter on Feb 25, 2020 9:41:10 GMT -5
It's hard to care or find any of it significant when the stakes are a hobbyist niche game that is run for free. It's like getting worked up that some nerd ripped off another nerds dungeon and dragons setting for their group.
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Post by tatata663 on Feb 25, 2020 23:48:12 GMT -5
You have to hand it to the staff for not immediately getting ruffled and using emotionally weighted culty language though. I'm glad that we can just sit down in the evening and play our text games and not have our moral fiber picked away at for at choosing Coca Cola or the Pepsi variety of desert adventure simulator. I mean... taking something like that personally like you have been actually slighted in real life would be nothing short of crazy, right?  Shalooonsh the SiltSmith 02/08/2020 Because I, and a lot of others, have put in serious hours of creativity and code wrangling to make Armageddon what it is, despite the code base being old, we fought to make it a good game and fun to play. And these guys just stole it, and ran with it. If you support that, then that says a lot about you. And yeah, I did, @thomoto Thomoto 02/08/2020 but honestly im giving a new mud the benifit of the doubt Shalooonsh the SiltSmith 02/08/2020 Says a lot about you |
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Post by terminal on Feb 26, 2020 7:45:01 GMT -5
i don't think it's really worth worrying about. staff isn't some monolithic group think, or you wouldn't have jilted storytellers posting here about red tape.
shalooonsh gets pissed. i get pissed. you get pissed.
i think it takes an alarming amount of bad faith interaction to get well and truly shit listed. delerak is a good example of someone who like went out of his way to burn those bridges and is still more or less welcomed by staff and the community.
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Post by samosforpresident on Feb 27, 2020 10:28:05 GMT -5
Moreso, I think people just want new content and don't want to be drug through the same roundabout over and over. Something like Apoc gives people that. Arm lacks strong player input unless you're a super favorite. Arm lacks change outside of the work staff are doing with crafting and code tweaks. There needs to be like an expansion pack or something to give players new content to work with instead of continuing to be stale.
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vex
Clueless newb
Posts: 133
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Post by vex on Feb 27, 2020 20:15:06 GMT -5
Moreso, I think people just want new content and don't want to be drug through the same roundabout over and over. Something like Apoc gives people that. Arm lacks strong player input unless you're a super favorite. Arm lacks change outside of the work staff are doing with crafting and code tweaks. There needs to be like an expansion pack or something to give players new content to work with instead of continuing to be stale.
The game already has, imo, plenty of content that almost nobody is experiencing, or having access to.
I can think of, right now, three or four different zones, that I have never, EVER encountered other PCs in, due to a range of things, such as it being occupied by super dangerous npcs, environmental factors I don't care to spoil, or behind "not worth the risk" climb checks, etcs. Even if you're willing and able to grind up a pc, who can reasonably travel to and survive the dangers, be it by flight or fight, to even access a lot of this, you are at extreme risk of "world responses", for getting into somewhere, where for whatever reason, staff decide you are not wanted in.
Worse, yet, is if you're one of those poor fools, who goes and does it anyway, or resists/overcomes the world responses, you're at further risk of a retconning of actions, ooc punishments, or coming back later to find, it has been changed, so as to become even MORE dangerous, or outright blocked by changes in environments, room flags, or such similar of things.
Imo, enriching the current zones with new/interesting things, as well as softening some of these npc/enviro barriers to make it accessible to moderately skilled solos and duos, would do the game a lot of good.
Tbh, the only reason anyone would need to go to the pirate version of arm, is because they've either been pushed there, or consumed all content/enjoyment they're able/allowed to partake in, and are unsatisfied.
All of that, is easily corrected, by better behaved staff (and, imo, most are already quite decently behaved, it's only a problem few that are an issue) and easier access for lower level staff to contribute larger, more creative projects.
Even simply making player clans easier to create, with property for rentals to base out of, and some automated/regenerated resources for purposes of disputes, would add vast benefits to the game.
But, I'm not saying anything by now, that others, here and elsewhere, have not already said...
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Post by psyxypher on Mar 17, 2020 0:16:21 GMT -5
Looking over this thread, I can't help remember when Nintendo decided to strike down Pokemon Uranium and Pokemon Prism (to fan projects that were superior to any Pokemon game that had came out for a while).
Arm's staff should take a moment to reflect on why Apoc game into existence in the first place.
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Post by jcarter on Mar 17, 2020 12:46:35 GMT -5
when i opened this thread i thought it was going to be a discussion on how the pandemic is affecting arm's numbers.
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