Post by lechuck on Feb 3, 2020 7:41:41 GMT -5
So, scan vs. hide. People who have been around the block know that some characters simply become undetectable--but why is that? Is there a way around it? How good is scan?
On the surface, scan matches hide point for point. If you have 80 in the scan skill, your scan is kind of equal to 80 hide. However, there's more to it than that. I'm going to use the terms "scan strength" to mean the level of hide that you can detect, and "hide strength" to mean your resistance to being spotted by scan.
You detect *a strange shadow* when you pop a look and your scan strength equals or surpasses the hidden entity's hide strength.
Your scan strength is a product of the following factors:
- Your actual points in the scan skill
- Your wisdom bonus/penalty to perception skills
- Any potential bonuses from equipment
- A random value between -20 and +20 applied to every scan roll
The first point is simple enough: you have a certain amount of points in the scan skill. It might be 0 if you don't have the skill, of course. Otherwise it'll be somewhere between 1 and 90. Only three classes can get to master scan: miscreant, stalker and laborer. I don't know what they each cap at, but my personal guess is that miscreant and stalker get 90 while laborer gets 80. That's just what I seem to have noticed after experiments.
Secondly, wisdom can apply a modifier to all perception skills. This is a miniscule factor as very few characters will have a bonus or penalty. You'd need a wisdom score of 6 in order to incur a penalty, which I think only half-giants can get, and you need 16 wisdom for the first bonus (+5), which is the upper end of human 'very good' wisdom. Human exceptional wisdom gives +10, and then it basically caps out at +20 for elven AI wisdom which is probably unattainable. Suffice to say that the vast majority of characters will have no modifier to perception checks because people don't generally prioritize wisdom. Here's the wisdom table:
As for bonuses from equipment, I doubt there are any worth noting. There may be some penalties from certain kinds of helmets but I'm not sure about it. My personal guess is that there are practically no items that affect your scan skill, but I can't be certain.
And finally, every roll of the scan skill is modified by a random value between -20 and +20. This is why a hidden character can flicker in and out of existence when you spam look. If you have 70 in the scan skill and you pop a look, your scan strength can fall anywhere from 50 to 90. Pretty simple.
And then we've got hide.
Your hide strength is a product of the following factors:
- Your points in the hide skill
- Your agility bonus/penalty to stealth skills*
- Any potential bonuses from equipment
*(technically this is actually applied as a penalty to the scanner's scan strength, not a bonus to your hide strength, but that's really the same thing for all intents and purposes. I'm not even sure why they did it this way. One thing to note is that agility's 'stealth_manip' substat does not appear to affect chance to succesfully hide! In the code it appears specifically as a penalty to the observer's scan roll)
So basically the same as scan except without the -20/+20 RNG. However, let's take a look at the agility table
Notice how big the bonuses to stealth skills get. If you have 19 agility (the upper half of human 'exceptional' which is 18-19) you get +25 to all stealth skills. If you have 25 agility (the middle of elven 'exceptional' which is 24-26) you get +40. Remember that almost all characters will have no perception modifier from wisdom.
Furthermore, as we know, there's quite a lot of equipment that gives bonuses to stealth. You can wear entire sets of gear that does it. I don't have access to the item database, but I venture to claim that it's pretty easy to get at least +10 to hide from equipment, and more is likely possible.
Now to some theorycrafting! Let's take two characters who are both fully maxed human miscreants. They have AI agility and average wisdom. Based on extensive testing, I'm assuming they cap both hide and scan at 90. We'll say that these two characters have both skills capped.
Char A is scanning. He has 90 in scan and anywhere from -20 to +20 on every attempt, as explained above. He has no bonus or penalty from wisdom or equipment. Every time he looks, his scan strength is anywhere from 70 to 110. This means that the highest possible hide strength that char A is capable of detecting is 110.
Char B is hiding. He has 90 in the hide skill and +25 from AI agility. That gives him a hide strength of 115. Without even wearing anything that improves his stealth, he's already undetectable even by the highest possible scan skill unless the scanner has bonuses. And if the scanner did have, say, 'extremely good' human wisdom, that would be +5. That means the limit of char A's scan strength is 115, and he would detect char B's shadow one in forty times when looking (he'd need to hit +20 on a random roll between -20 and +20).
Now let's say char B is an elf with +40 to stealth skills. That gives him a hide strength of 130. In order to be able to detect that at all, the scanner needs a total of +20 to the scan skill. As we saw from the wisdom table, you get +20 to perception skills at... 24 wisdom. I believe that might be elven 'exceptional' wisdom. Elven wisdom used to be a lot higher than what it is today, so some of the stat tables that have been posted here are no longer correct. I'm not even completely certain that elves can in fact get 24 wisdom. I know that 20 is elven 'extremely good' so it's possible that 24 is actually 'absolutely incredible' which, thanks to a quirk in the code, is literally impossible to roll unless your class gets a wisdom bonus or your character is of the 'ancient' age bracket. For whatever reason, you get an age-based wisdom penalty until the very last age bracket that reads 'ancient.'
So, what have we learned? For one thing, we know that scan is generally weak against hide. If your scan skill is equal to someone's hide skill, you can only really detect them if their agility isn't high and they aren't wearing camouflage equipment. I'm 95% sure that miscreant/stalker get 90 in hide and scan, infiltrator/scout get 75, and enforcer/raider get 60. These are the only classes worth experimenting with so I have no idea where garbage ones like pilferer and laborer are at.
I'm not the kind of guy who makes graphs and spreadsheets, but someone really ought to do that. Suffice to say that since 'hide strength' is boosted so much by agility and potential equipment while 'scan strength' is barely affected by anything except the RNG variable of -20 to +20, scan is at an inherent disadvantage. If someone has more than +20 to stealth, they're pretty much always going to be undetectable to anyone of the same skill bracket in scan. That means miscreants/stalkers won't generally spot other miscreants/stalkers. They should spot human infiltrators/scouts but might not spot elven ones.
Meanwhile, subclass scan is practically worthless, especially the ones that cap at journeyman. For scan, journeyman is 40-59, so let's say the cap is probably 50 for something like the rogue subclass. 50 in the scan skill gives you a scan strength of 30-70. The only thing you might spot with that is an enforcer/raider with middling agility. Subclass scan is just about useless.
On the surface, scan matches hide point for point. If you have 80 in the scan skill, your scan is kind of equal to 80 hide. However, there's more to it than that. I'm going to use the terms "scan strength" to mean the level of hide that you can detect, and "hide strength" to mean your resistance to being spotted by scan.
You detect *a strange shadow* when you pop a look and your scan strength equals or surpasses the hidden entity's hide strength.
Your scan strength is a product of the following factors:
- Your actual points in the scan skill
- Your wisdom bonus/penalty to perception skills
- Any potential bonuses from equipment
- A random value between -20 and +20 applied to every scan roll
The first point is simple enough: you have a certain amount of points in the scan skill. It might be 0 if you don't have the skill, of course. Otherwise it'll be somewhere between 1 and 90. Only three classes can get to master scan: miscreant, stalker and laborer. I don't know what they each cap at, but my personal guess is that miscreant and stalker get 90 while laborer gets 80. That's just what I seem to have noticed after experiments.
Secondly, wisdom can apply a modifier to all perception skills. This is a miniscule factor as very few characters will have a bonus or penalty. You'd need a wisdom score of 6 in order to incur a penalty, which I think only half-giants can get, and you need 16 wisdom for the first bonus (+5), which is the upper end of human 'very good' wisdom. Human exceptional wisdom gives +10, and then it basically caps out at +20 for elven AI wisdom which is probably unattainable. Suffice to say that the vast majority of characters will have no modifier to perception checks because people don't generally prioritize wisdom. Here's the wisdom table:
/* wisdom apply */
/* learn, perception, saves */
struct wis_app_type wis_app[101] = {
{0, 0, 0}, /* 0 */
{1, -30, -50},
{2, -20, -40},
{4, -15, -30}, /* 3 */
{6, -10, -25},
{8, -5, -20},
{10, -5, -15}, /* 6 */
{12, 0, -10},
{14, 0, -5},
{16, 0, 0}, /* 9 */
{18, 0, 0},
{20, 0, 0},
{24, 0, 0}, /* 12 */
{28, 0, 0},
{32, 0, 0},
{38, 0, 5}, /* 15 */
{44, 5, 10},
{50, 5, 15},
{56, 5, 20}, /* 18 */
{62, 10, 25},
{68, 10, 30},
{74, 10, 35}, /* 21 */
{80, 15, 40},
{86, 15, 45},
{92, 20, 50}, /* 24 */
{92, 20, 50}, /* 25 */
As for bonuses from equipment, I doubt there are any worth noting. There may be some penalties from certain kinds of helmets but I'm not sure about it. My personal guess is that there are practically no items that affect your scan skill, but I can't be certain.
And finally, every roll of the scan skill is modified by a random value between -20 and +20. This is why a hidden character can flicker in and out of existence when you spam look. If you have 70 in the scan skill and you pop a look, your scan strength can fall anywhere from 50 to 90. Pretty simple.
And then we've got hide.
Your hide strength is a product of the following factors:
- Your points in the hide skill
- Your agility bonus/penalty to stealth skills*
- Any potential bonuses from equipment
*(technically this is actually applied as a penalty to the scanner's scan strength, not a bonus to your hide strength, but that's really the same thing for all intents and purposes. I'm not even sure why they did it this way. One thing to note is that agility's 'stealth_manip' substat does not appear to affect chance to succesfully hide! In the code it appears specifically as a penalty to the observer's scan roll)
So basically the same as scan except without the -20/+20 RNG. However, let's take a look at the agility table
/* agility apply */
/* react, stealth_manip, carry number, missile bonus c_delay */
struct agl_app_type agl_app[101] = {
{0, 0, 0, 0, 15}, /* 0 */
{-30, -50, 1, -30, 10},
{-20, -40, 2, -25, 8},
{-15, -30, 2, -20, 7}, /* 3 */
{-10, -25, 2, -15, 5},
{-5, -20, 3, -10, 5},
{-5, -15, 3, -5, 5}, /* 6 */
{0, -10, 4, -5, 4},
{0, -5, 4, 0, 4},
{0, 0, 5, 0, 4}, /* 9 */
{0, 0, 5, 0, 4},
{0, 0, 6, 0, 3},
{0, 0, 6, 0, 3}, /* 12 */
{0, 5, 7, 0, 3},
{0, 5, 7, 0, 3},
{0, 5, 8, 5, 3}, /* 15 */
{5, 10, 8, 5, 2},
{5, 15, 8, 5, 2},
{5, 20, 9, 10, 2}, /* 18 */
{10, 25, 9, 10, 2},
{10, 25, 9, 15, 2},
{10, 25, 10, 15, 2}, /* 21 */
{15, 25, 10, 20, 2},
{15, 30, 10, 20, 1},
{20, 35, 11, 25, 1}, /* 24 */
{25, 40, 12, 25, 1}, /* 25 */
{28, 40, 12, 28, 1},Notice how big the bonuses to stealth skills get. If you have 19 agility (the upper half of human 'exceptional' which is 18-19) you get +25 to all stealth skills. If you have 25 agility (the middle of elven 'exceptional' which is 24-26) you get +40. Remember that almost all characters will have no perception modifier from wisdom.
Furthermore, as we know, there's quite a lot of equipment that gives bonuses to stealth. You can wear entire sets of gear that does it. I don't have access to the item database, but I venture to claim that it's pretty easy to get at least +10 to hide from equipment, and more is likely possible.
Now to some theorycrafting! Let's take two characters who are both fully maxed human miscreants. They have AI agility and average wisdom. Based on extensive testing, I'm assuming they cap both hide and scan at 90. We'll say that these two characters have both skills capped.
Char A is scanning. He has 90 in scan and anywhere from -20 to +20 on every attempt, as explained above. He has no bonus or penalty from wisdom or equipment. Every time he looks, his scan strength is anywhere from 70 to 110. This means that the highest possible hide strength that char A is capable of detecting is 110.
Char B is hiding. He has 90 in the hide skill and +25 from AI agility. That gives him a hide strength of 115. Without even wearing anything that improves his stealth, he's already undetectable even by the highest possible scan skill unless the scanner has bonuses. And if the scanner did have, say, 'extremely good' human wisdom, that would be +5. That means the limit of char A's scan strength is 115, and he would detect char B's shadow one in forty times when looking (he'd need to hit +20 on a random roll between -20 and +20).
Now let's say char B is an elf with +40 to stealth skills. That gives him a hide strength of 130. In order to be able to detect that at all, the scanner needs a total of +20 to the scan skill. As we saw from the wisdom table, you get +20 to perception skills at... 24 wisdom. I believe that might be elven 'exceptional' wisdom. Elven wisdom used to be a lot higher than what it is today, so some of the stat tables that have been posted here are no longer correct. I'm not even completely certain that elves can in fact get 24 wisdom. I know that 20 is elven 'extremely good' so it's possible that 24 is actually 'absolutely incredible' which, thanks to a quirk in the code, is literally impossible to roll unless your class gets a wisdom bonus or your character is of the 'ancient' age bracket. For whatever reason, you get an age-based wisdom penalty until the very last age bracket that reads 'ancient.'
So, what have we learned? For one thing, we know that scan is generally weak against hide. If your scan skill is equal to someone's hide skill, you can only really detect them if their agility isn't high and they aren't wearing camouflage equipment. I'm 95% sure that miscreant/stalker get 90 in hide and scan, infiltrator/scout get 75, and enforcer/raider get 60. These are the only classes worth experimenting with so I have no idea where garbage ones like pilferer and laborer are at.
I'm not the kind of guy who makes graphs and spreadsheets, but someone really ought to do that. Suffice to say that since 'hide strength' is boosted so much by agility and potential equipment while 'scan strength' is barely affected by anything except the RNG variable of -20 to +20, scan is at an inherent disadvantage. If someone has more than +20 to stealth, they're pretty much always going to be undetectable to anyone of the same skill bracket in scan. That means miscreants/stalkers won't generally spot other miscreants/stalkers. They should spot human infiltrators/scouts but might not spot elven ones.
Meanwhile, subclass scan is practically worthless, especially the ones that cap at journeyman. For scan, journeyman is 40-59, so let's say the cap is probably 50 for something like the rogue subclass. 50 in the scan skill gives you a scan strength of 30-70. The only thing you might spot with that is an enforcer/raider with middling agility. Subclass scan is just about useless.
