mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 12, 2019 6:09:01 GMT -5
I've managed to play once above commoner level in nearly 20 years of playtime. A Templar no less, who, because of his particular background, enjoyed spending more time at a table being 'nice' to commoners than to sit at the other table kissing Lord Fancy Pants butt because their House has something he wanted. Actually got in trouble for it a couple of times, but, it gave me the freedom to use said commoners like unpaid spies, but my guy was the least scary, least nose in the air type than the others. Would he have killed you in an instant? Absolutely. He's a Templar. But, commoners have far more uses than Nobles, and can go places Nobles can't go, and do things they can't do. I think Nobles, Templars, and commoners should mingle more. In my time of playing a Templar, it was actually a regular thing, albeit limited to a select group, Noble A wasn't going to be sitting in the Gaj sharing ale with a half-breed Bynner. But he might be over there with Grebber Amos and Hunter Andy. I would argue that, given the game's demographics and just how few people are nobles/templars at any one time, that nobles, templars, and commoners have to mingle more in order to ensure that none of the parties in particular get OOCly bored. I'd say the way you pulled it off was pretty clever. That said, you're not the first and probably not the last person who's done similar things with their templar/noble character. But the playerbase tends to get mad at such nobles/templars (who I'll call "populists" for the sake of simplicity) because the outsider's perception is that they grow over-connected and gain heavily advantageous positions in politics too easily. People like Timotheo, Raleris, and Lyvren are decent examples of such characters, and the OOC hatred they got for daring to interact with characters besides other nobles and templars was palpable.
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scrabby
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Post by scrabby on Oct 12, 2019 16:18:06 GMT -5
I get it, but I don't get it. My personal opinion of course, I don't make attempts to sway anyone's opinion on a subject of this game, because we all approach it with different mindsets and goals. For me, personally, it's supposed to be fun. And if I get my fun having my Templar/Noble be more in tune with speaking to commoners than Noble types, then that's just the way I'm going to play it.
I've been lucky enough in the last 20 years not to really piss anyone off, player or staff alike. I know that the person on the other side is a player, and I want them to enjoy what's happening as much as I do. I just don't care much for 'staff created plots', because as stated several times before, there's no story. I liked being able to create things for the people around me. And even when I did PK, I did it because there really wasn't anything else that could be done in that particular situation.
I remember getting a kudos once from a player saying he was mad at first that my Templar offed him, but that's because he'd invested alot of time in that character. But as he thought it over, he really didn't give me much choice in the matter (I believed his character dumped poop on a table full of Borsail Nobles), and thanked me for at RPing the whole thing out and not just using game code to kill him.
For me personally, again just my opinion, these big deals staff make end up wiping out PCs with no substance. If I'm going to be killed, or if I'm going to kill someone, I want that moment to mean something to the player I'm playing with. I want to stick out as a good memory, like, Dude, this one time...! That's what I strive for myself. I'm not the greatest RPer you've ever met, but I'm going to give you "something" instead of "nothing", with nothing being just kill Amos and wait for the code to finish.
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 13, 2019 6:25:50 GMT -5
I get it, but I don't get it. My personal opinion of course, I don't make attempts to sway anyone's opinion on a subject of this game, because we all approach it with different mindsets and goals. For me, personally, it's supposed to be fun. And if I get my fun having my Templar/Noble be more in tune with speaking to commoners than Noble types, then that's just the way I'm going to play it. I've been lucky enough in the last 20 years not to really piss anyone off, player or staff alike. I know that the person on the other side is a player, and I want them to enjoy what's happening as much as I do. I just don't care much for 'staff created plots', because as stated several times before, there's no story. I liked being able to create things for the people around me. And even when I did PK, I did it because there really wasn't anything else that could be done in that particular situation. I remember getting a kudos once from a player saying he was mad at first that my Templar offed him, but that's because he'd invested alot of time in that character. But as he thought it over, he really didn't give me much choice in the matter (I believed his character dumped poop on a table full of Borsail Nobles), and thanked me for at RPing the whole thing out and not just using game code to kill him. For me personally, again just my opinion, these big deals staff make end up wiping out PCs with no substance. If I'm going to be killed, or if I'm going to kill someone, I want that moment to mean something to the player I'm playing with. I want to stick out as a good memory, like, Dude, this one time...! That's what I strive for myself. I'm not the greatest RPer you've ever met, but I'm going to give you "something" instead of "nothing", with nothing being just kill Amos and wait for the code to finish. I mean, most people play games to have fun, so you're hardly alone there. But Armageddon's something of an outlier in that regard, both in terms of its playerbase and the design of the game itself. In the interest of not painting people with a broad brush, I'll focus on the game design in general. Basically, the game advertises itself as a collaborative storytelling game, not unlike a large-scale tabletop RPG. But by design, the game is a hack-and-slash MUD with unrestricted PK (at least ostensibly; we'll ignore staff backlash toward PK in certain cherry-picked instances) and where staff largely don't participate in story development (the lack of a metaplot that I mentioned earlier in this thread, in August). Taking all these facts together, we can assume: - Players have sole responsibility for their own "fun", in terms of story development. Staff guidance is minimal until they want to change some facet of the world, then it's at maximum until that plot ends. - Without an overarching metaplot for players to work around, there is nothing going on in the world by default for players to be involved in. There's generally no ongoing crisis. - When there is an ongoing crisis, the outcome of that crisis is largely staff-determined. Player actions have minimal, if any effect. - Taking the above into account, players have no reason to collaborate on a storyline as a single, solidified group. Players do collaborate, but usually against other groups of players. - Therefore, the plots that allow for the highest amount of player agency are in interpersonal plots - plots that pit two or more characters against one another in a relatively small scale conflict, such as competition over money, status, influence, and/or a promotion. - To perpetuate an interpersonal plot, players have mainly coded means at their disposal, as well as socialization to bring others into a cause. - Players who give their PCs a "social advantage", such as being highly visible and approachable, amass social power as well as the coded power of the PCs they attract. Other players without that "social advantage" feel out of the loop and may resent those that do have a social advantage. This is what you observed directly, and I propose the rest of this list explains why you observed it. - Since interpersonal plots tend to be on an extremely small scale, and don't involve wider organizations, they tend to leave much to be desired. With players unsatisfied at the end of a plot, the cycle repeats itself, with the players hoping they'll get "more out of it" next time. Barring some introduction of a metaplot, something that players can collaborate on together against some sort of crisis or threat, the game will remain in this cycle, stagnantly. And even with a metaplot, nothing is stopping players from competing: take a hypothetical example where Tuluki forces occupy Allanak, somehow. There could be rebels who want to overthrow the Tuluki oppressors, enclaves of gemmed fighting for survival, as well as traitors who prefer a Tuluki yoke over an Allanaki one and will do everything to keep it. These groups could conceivably come into conflict, but it would be for reasons of advancing the metaplot, and the outcome of those conflicts would actually have an impact on the broader world. This would leave more satisfying conclusions, and players would take less issue with other players' actions in this scenario because, against an impossible crisis, a lot more actions seem "fair".
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2019 6:49:21 GMT -5
Are you writing a book or teaching a class about muds, or gaming in general?
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mehtastic
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Post by mehtastic on Oct 13, 2019 7:06:10 GMT -5
I'm neither a writer of any significance nor a teacher. What insights I have about this subject come from my studies of game design, practice as a hobby-level game designer, and my experience playing RPGs with other people as well as DMing games for friends.
Also, while I criticize Armageddon regularly, I would love to be wrong about my view of how plots are organized on Arm and the level of damage the lack of a metaplot does to Arm, and the playerbase's morale. But I don't think I am. Armageddon's biggest flaw is that it lacks a consistent, overarching story, and many of the game's other flaws can be derived from this one.
I'll add, however, that metaplots do have their disadvantages. The biggest one is that, if done improperly, metaplots can feel extremely restrictive and jarring. Going back to my example of "Tuluk occupies Allanak", valid objections an Armageddon player might raise include: "Tuluk appears to be a substantially weaker force than Allanak", "Tuluk has no resources to gain by occupying Allanak", "I simply don't want to play under that level of oppression and will play in Red Storm instead". But I'm not responsible for coming up with a good metaplot for Armageddon, nor do I want to come up with a good idea here and make it untouchable in staff's eyes by virtue of it being on the shadowboard.
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scrabby
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Post by scrabby on Oct 13, 2019 20:11:58 GMT -5
Not to sound like an ass here, but at least when Tuluk was still open there 'was' something going on worldwide. There had to be. Tuluk and Allanak were sworn enemies. There was always conflict to be had, from soldier to soldier, Templar to Templar, Noble to Noble, and even those commoners from the north and south taking their chances walking into either city. I know they're not going to re-open it anytime soon, and maybe never, with the dwindling playerbase, but for me, closing it in the first place was the beginning of the slow death the game is feeling right now.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2019 20:39:43 GMT -5
Not to sound like an ass here, but at least when Tuluk was still open there 'was' something going on worldwide. There had to be. Tuluk and Allanak were sworn enemies. There was always conflict to be had, from soldier to soldier, Templar to Templar, Noble to Noble, and even those commoners from the north and south taking their chances walking into either city. I know they're not going to re-open it anytime soon, and maybe never, with the dwindling playerbase, but for me, closing it in the first place was the beginning of the slow death the game is feeling right now. Play outdoors in the south. There is active conflict going on in the game right now.
Good luck.
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scrabby
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Post by scrabby on Oct 13, 2019 20:41:53 GMT -5
Not to sound like an ass here, but at least when Tuluk was still open there 'was' something going on worldwide. There had to be. Tuluk and Allanak were sworn enemies. There was always conflict to be had, from soldier to soldier, Templar to Templar, Noble to Noble, and even those commoners from the north and south taking their chances walking into either city. I know they're not going to re-open it anytime soon, and maybe never, with the dwindling playerbase, but for me, closing it in the first place was the beginning of the slow death the game is feeling right now. Play outdoors in the south. There is active conflict going on in the game right now.
Good luck.
Oh I know! And I'm not complaining about it at all. I guess it's just...different? But don't take the above as a complaint against the current conflict. It seems to be going well, from what I've seen. I'm just an old, grouchy player who misses the old days. Ignore me.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2019 19:23:28 GMT -5
I miss the Tuluk / Allanak conflict as well. More dueling, less one sided ganking.
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