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Post by lyse on Jul 19, 2019 11:47:57 GMT -5
Reminder, kids, Kadius has zero say in Morin’s. Its Tuluki power there.. Eh, I wouldn’t be too sure of that. Morin’s is a Kadius logging camp, always has been. Kadius actually has a lot to do with Tuluk itself, so they’re confusingly linked. I stopped playing around the time of the Garrison, seemed like a dumpster fire waiting to happen from the beginning. It’s one of the many reasons Arm’s history needs a reboot. It’s just full of too many missteps like this at this point, that some things need to just be retconned. Start over fresh and let the world rebuild itself with new stories. |
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Post by pinkerdlu on Jul 19, 2019 12:01:16 GMT -5
Reminder, kids, Kadius has zero say in Morin’s. Its Tuluki power there.. Eh, I wouldn’t be too sure of that. Morin’s is a Kadius logging camp, always has been. Kadius actually has a lot to do with Tuluk itself, so they’re confusingly linked. I stopped playing around the time of the Garrison, seemed like a dumpster fire waiting to happen from the beginning. It’s one of the many reasons Arm’s history needs a reboot. It’s just full of too many missteps like this at this point, that some things need to just be retconned. Start over fresh and let the world rebuild itself with new stories. That’d be ideal. |
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mehtastic
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Posts: 1,695
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Post by mehtastic on Jul 19, 2019 12:05:45 GMT -5
Reminder, kids, Kadius has zero say in Morin’s. Its Tuluki power there.. Eh, I wouldn’t be too sure of that. Morin’s is a Kadius logging camp, always has been. Kadius actually has a lot to do with Tuluk itself, so they’re confusingly linked. I stopped playing around the time of the Garrison, seemed like a dumpster fire waiting to happen from the beginning. It’s one of the many reasons Arm’s history needs a reboot. It’s just full of too many missteps like this at this point, that some things need to just be retconned. Start over fresh and let the world rebuild itself with new stories. I will admit to having been excited for Arm 2 when that was still a thing, precisely because it was an opportunity for Armageddon as a concept to start fresh. Even then, what Armageddon had left was like stale bread: not fresh, but not entirely inedible if you're hungry enough. A few years after leaving Armageddon and I can't fully imagine what it's like now, but reading things like this thread makes me compare Armageddon to a TV show that's just gone on a few seasons too long and should have ended a long time ago. A reboot would be welcomed, but what's going on now vis a vis Armageddon just feels like exploiting a corpse at this point. |
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seuly
Clueless newb
Posts: 103
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Post by seuly on Jul 19, 2019 14:00:58 GMT -5
They turned Morin’s into Mini Tuluk. Legionaires all over.
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Post by lyse on Jul 19, 2019 14:18:40 GMT -5
I mean what does that say about the game’s world building, if people playing don’t know Morin’s is a Kadian camp?
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Jeshin
GDB Superstar
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Post by Jeshin on Jul 19, 2019 14:56:55 GMT -5
Morin's became occupied by Tuluki forces when the kryl became a problem.
It then became a spot that ICly people escaped the gates of Tuluk to move to Morin's including deserting Legion thus establishing it as mini tuluk and likely changing the power structure of the settlement somewhat.
Also as a small note...
In a game with extremely high turnover.
No writing ICly.
Very little published or understood continunity.
No seeming relevancy to the progression of time ICly.
Does it need a reboot? Would a reboot even help?
Isn't it just existing in a schrodingers cat paradox of both having worldbuilding and not having worldbuilding because of the lack of comprehension or relevancy or enforcement?
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Post by lyse on Jul 19, 2019 15:29:29 GMT -5
Also as a small note... In a game with extremely high turnover. No writing ICly. Very little published or understood continunity. No seeming relevancy to the progression of time ICly. Does it need a reboot? Would a reboot even help? Isn't it just existing in a schrodingers cat paradox of both having worldbuilding and not having worldbuilding because of the lack of comprehension or relevancy or enforcement? You just explained why it needs a reboot. People completely ignore the lore because it’s so convoluted, it’s not even a player’s fault for ignoring it. The problem is when they run across someone who does know the lore, then they’re looking at them like “WTH are you talking about”. It’s not a paradox, you reboot because over time with x numbers of writers making all of these different stories, there comes a point where you just need to start over. Comic books do this for the same reason. It’s storytelling 101 every so often, a new generation needs something new and relevant to them. A good consistent backstory and lore is the foundation of a good game. There’s nothing paradoxical about that. |
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Jeshin
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Post by Jeshin on Jul 19, 2019 15:33:06 GMT -5
I tend to agree, but if they reboot what would that look like?
They clarify territory lines, stances on issues, and wipe out or canonize certain staff events in the past.
But to a player if the staff do not fundamentally change how they handle the game, does it really make a big difference? Like the staff had a wiki of stuff that was canon but they never used? Does that Lore even matter, if they reboot with secret Lore like that which no one ever learns or shares does -that- lore matter? You get my point.
TLDR - I support a reboot, fixing lore, documentation, but it needs to come with changes to how staff treat the passage of time and the relevancy of player actions and even their own staff plot actions.
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Post by shakes on Jul 19, 2019 16:19:27 GMT -5
It's also part of the problem with the clans.
Kadius wants to have fashion shows in Allanak as their plots. Instead of creating a plot where they do something with Morin's, which would remind people that they more or less own Morin's.
All of the clans suffer from this. Not just Kadius. I haven't been in any of the houses so I don't really know if it's a problem with the storytellers not wanting to support those sorts of out-of-allanak plots or if it's the people they pick for sponsored roles just have no imagination.
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Post by triskelion on Jul 19, 2019 16:36:53 GMT -5
The only part of armageddon lore as it stands that is actually shit is that they teleported an entire fucking volcano
that shit dumb af fam smh
Most of the lore is perfectly sensible, they just need to make it more coherently available. Just because a society is illiterate doesn't mean it can't pass down history and lore
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Post by lyse on Jul 19, 2019 17:18:29 GMT -5
TLDR - I support a reboot, fixing lore, documentation, but it needs to come with changes to how staff treat the passage of time and the relevancy of player actions and even their own staff plot actions. A reboot affords an opportunity to restructure how lore and canon are handled. I agree, it should be a living thing that should be updated as the game progresses and it should be accessible by all players as soon as the plot is done. Whether your character gives a shit about what happened in the year of pee in the wind Kings age 64 on Detal in Red Storm. You the player should be aware of what happened so that when you DO roll up a Stormer, your character is aware of why that thing is on the street and why you don’t touch it. One of the most persistent complaints in Armageddon is “I didn’t know _____ but my character would’ve known that.” Usually due to ic consequences because of ooc ignorance. How do you fix that? Reboot. Start the game over 50 or 100 years after the dragon left. It’s a couple of generations after the good Dark Sun base of lore, far enough into the future that establishes GMH and noble houses, but it erases all of the rest of the 25+ years of shit that has accumulated. Moving forward major events are on a page or wiki, sensitive clan stuff goes on a clan wiki or clan board. Super sekrit might be readable on a rumor page. Most of what is needed is already in place. What has to happen is it has to be used the way it was intended consistently. Then put the all of the old lore and canon on another page for the inevitable crying that would follow, for people that want to reminisce. |
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jkarr
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Post by jkarr on Jul 19, 2019 18:30:23 GMT -5
TLDR - I support a reboot, fixing lore, documentation, but it needs to come with changes to how staff treat the passage of time and the relevancy of player actions and even their own staff plot actions. How do you fix that? Reboot. Start the game over 50 or 100 years after the dragon left. It’s a couple of generations after the good Dark Sun base of lore, far enough into the future that establishes GMH and noble houses, but it erases all of the rest of the 25+ years of shit that has accumulated. Moving forward major events are on a page or wiki, sensitive clan stuff goes on a clan wiki or clan board. Super sekrit might be readable on a rumor page. Most of what is needed is already in place. What has to happen is it has to be used the way it was intended consistently. this would be great |
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alleys
Clueless newb
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Post by alleys on Jul 19, 2019 19:55:49 GMT -5
Also as a small note... In a game with extremely high turnover. No writing ICly. Very little published or understood continunity. No seeming relevancy to the progression of time ICly. Does it need a reboot? Would a reboot even help? Isn't it just existing in a schrodingers cat paradox of both having worldbuilding and not having worldbuilding because of the lack of comprehension or relevancy or enforcement? You just explained why it needs a reboot. People completely ignore the lore because it’s so convoluted, it’s not even a player’s fault for ignoring it. The problem is when they run across someone who does know the lore, then they’re looking at them like “WTH are you talking about”. It’s not a paradox, you reboot because over time with x numbers of writers making all of these different stories, there comes a point where you just need to start over. Comic books do this for the same reason. It’s storytelling 101 every so often, a new generation needs something new and relevant to them. A good consistent backstory and lore is the foundation of a good game. There’s nothing paradoxical about that. This helps for some old players to return back to game. Does it worth it is the question. Even the most replayable game becomes dull after some point. Unlike comic books, a game may have lost it's appeal to old players and new ones are hard to come by because of many many reasons. So game lost 250 unique players to 200 players. Especially with this much communication the mystery of exploring is lost to a degree, I am not really sure full-reboot is the solution. It didn't work much in Dark Sun reboot, or DnD Forgotten Realms reboot or Dragonlance's many many reboots. It works on comic books to some decree because they are made to quick consumed products. Subject detrailed but I think solution would be, as Jeshin put out, making a long term plan which would not change because of high-turnover of IMMs. Then making some unique plots like (I read of GDB maybe years ago) invasion of a force from out of map, like behind Silt Sea or death of Tek and rise of a new rule kinda.. Changing social relations to a degree would be fun and gives new RP challanges. In Dark Sun, they offer Tyr as a newly freed state for example, just for sake of bored players can play a new campaign in a new social-structure. By the way, IMMs may already be doing this to some degree. I like new room additions. |
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Post by lyse on Jul 20, 2019 7:17:02 GMT -5
This helps for some old players to return back to game. Does it worth it is the question. I'd say that would be a welcomed side effect to a reboot and almost a good enough reason alone to give the game a try again. That's not why I'm saying it should be done though. Especially with this much communication the mystery of exploring is lost to a degree, I am not really sure full-reboot is the solution. I didn't say anything about doing a full reboot. I'm talking about rebooting the lore and canon. It didn't work much in Dark Sun reboot, or DnD Forgotten Realms reboot or Dragonlance's many many reboots. It works on comic books to some decree because they are made to quick consumed products. The connection you made...just isn't...there. When DnD gets a new version, like going from 3rd edition to 4th, it's a change in mechanics. I'm not talking about changing the mechanics of the game. The reason Darksun 3rd edition didn't work was because they changed the mechanics and they changed the lore that worked. I'm saying do the opposite, keep the lore that works and throw out all of the stuff that simply isn't working or doesn't make any sense. Better yet....start completely over. It works in comics and movies because they are story driven. What I'm talking about is completely story driven, which is what a game like Armageddon should be about. Subject detrailed but I think solution would be, as Jeshin put out, making a long term plan which would not change because of high-turnover of IMMs. No, it's not a derail, because its related to something that happend in the lore that makes very little sense and should definitely be walked back, which they're doing. Takes into account high turnover from both staff and players and those things have little bearing on rebooting the lore and canon. It wouldn't matter who's staffing or how long they stick around. Incomplete plots, which could happen just wouldn't make it into the new canon, unless its some kind of unreliable rumor that could possibly be picked up by another staff member at some point. Then making some unique plots like (I read of GDB maybe years ago) invasion of a force from out of map, like behind Silt Sea or death of Tek and rise of a new rule kinda.. Changing social relations to a degree would be fun and gives new RP challanges. In Dark Sun, they offer Tyr as a newly freed state for example, just for sake of bored players can play a new campaign in a new social-structure. Again, what I'm proposing allows them to do all of that because they're starting the story over with a blank slate. By the way, IMMs may already be doing this to some degree. I like new room additions. The problem with the way things are now is, staff simply ignore things that are inconvienient but players do too. It's the inconsistency that's the problem. |
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tedium
Clueless newb
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Post by tedium on Jul 21, 2019 11:55:09 GMT -5
Moving the merchants to the Outpost and then giving them absolutely no reason to be there was doomed to fail. You can't really call it an experiment in PC leadership when there's just nothing for the PC leaders to do. What are they leading? The Merchant leaders have to go south for business, and the Garrison is subordinate to the PC leaders. Without PC leaders the Garrison just spars because there's nothing to protect the Outpost from. Not to mention that the tribals are specifically told to avoid using Nenyuk and avoid carrying coin, so there are a number of reasons not to pair Kadius and Nenyuk with tribals.
The entire concept of the Outpost makes no sense as implemented. Not even on paper. If you want to make any section of the game based on ruthless capitalism, then you have to move the Byn there first and make that their official home.
The Outpost is on life support because the tribal section of the game is so crippled. They have no natural conflict, no natural advantage, and no solid thematic base from which to build your own conflicts. The Soh were raider PKs and likely not good for the overall health of the game in that state, but they were so disproportionately popular compared to other clans because that gave them something to do.
I don't think that a reboot would help. Like Jeshin says, the problem isn't that there's been too much lore that bogs down the game. Some of the clans (like the Arabet) have been stealth rebooted with lore wipes. Nobody can tell the difference because they never replace it with anything valuable, and never give players the tools or power to shape the clans into something new.
Arm's culture still hasn't recovered to the point where players can take clans in new directions, and likely won't, so staff need to look at the tribal section of the game and ask what they add to the whole. Personally, I think the mage stigma for tribals needs to go. Every clan has ties to mages and the survival of that tribe depends on them. A pro-magic section of the game would be great conflict with Allanak, and it gives the resource and politically weak tribal clans some real power to justify their survival.
The spillover of such an arrangement into the Outpost should be obvious. They're allied with the tribal clans and are the "legitimate" merchant house face for those factions, but they also want to stay on good terms with Allanak, the other merchants, and the rogue hunters who buy their survival gear. That means walking a fine line of Neutrality and trying to keep everyone happy without giving so much that the other merchant clans can move in on their territory.
Plus like I said before: Nix the monopoly restrictions on merchant houses. That alone would bring the three merchant houses a ton of roleplay, and let them try to cut in on each other's territory.
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